Disparity of Design Philosophy in Games Workshop

[Lexington]

There seems to be an industry-wide shift (possibly spurred on by GW’s success) away from a sort of military realism and towards bigger, chunkier detailing. Some of this might be the gradual shift to CAD design, or to help with mold longevity, and more recently to help some manufacturers shift to materials like Siocast, but whatever’s motivating the shift, it’s definitely real and widespread.

Edited September 30 by Lexington

[Antarius]

It’s not that I can’t see it at all, but I don’t really know if it’s a general trend in GW minis, honestly. I think many of their ranges have moved towards a “slimmer” and more detailed style in the past decade or so. I actually think it’s a bigger problem that many of their current models are too “busy” and loaded down with superfluous details that I personally feel detracts from the overall impact of the models.

[Tyriks]

I honestly prefer the newer stuff, typically. It does look more "40kish" but that aesthetic is what got me into the game (and eventually into FW) so I am on board.  If I wanted military realism I imagine I'd be playing Flames of War or Napoleonics or something. I love the 40k look too much to want FW doing something else.

 

And I just built Jaghatai today, he is extremely detailed and the details are crisp and pristine. Comparing this to the older Primarchs I would take this in a heartbeat. I know people like to wistfully praise the old days of hand sculpting but I think the overall quality has improved since the change. There have been some missed shots, but there are plenty of older models I never liked, too, so I don't think that's a new thing.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Krieg are a nightmare to work with? I wouldn't say so.

And I don't see their detail causing issues. Not to mention, Sol Aux were two piece models.

Meanwhile new Solar Aux and Tech Thralls are both 14 pieces each, for guardsmen size models. GW clearly don't worry about models being fiddly for heresy.

 

Personally I think it just comes down to a change in artists. 

This is an opinion someone who hasn’t spent hours gluing the pouches and packs on and then back on, over and over and over would have. Superglue is not a great model glue. 

[Orion]

 

This is an opinion someone who hasn’t spent hours gluing the pouches and packs on and then back on, over and over and over would have. Superglue is not a great model glue. 

 

I've built like 150 krieg, each with pouches. I think the only thing I could be guilty of is too much experience.

 

 

[Dark Legionnare]

 

 

I've built like 150 krieg, each with pouches. I think the only thing I could be guilty of is too much experience.

I do and don't  miss the days of doing mine; in particular my vanquishers' barrels, haha.

 

Never did end up making the plunge for two "at ease" squads. You almost just made me do it...

 

"Not enough shelf space" is my limiter these days!

[Orion]

 

I do and don't  miss the days of doing mine; in particular my vanquishers' barrels, haha.

 

Never did end up making the plunge for two "at ease" squads. You almost just made me do it...

 

"Not enough shelf space" is my limiter these days!

 

Yeah, my collection of minis is getting a bit excessive, but it is what it is. Taking my time and gradually painting them all.

 

And building and painting is the hobby for me, so I definitely don't agree with the sentiment that Krieg (or any resin minis) are a nightmare to build. It's just not true.

[Matcap86]

 

Resin Solar Aux were a [redacted] nightmare to work with. On par with Krieg but somehow more fiddly. The result was phenomenal but it was not something everyone could do. Solar Aux is a great example of exactly what I mean about the new way they design stuff in CAD, with much larger and thicker cartoon proportions. Look at the Solar Marshal and then at the Champion. CAD designed, you could easily print a billion of him to the same quality with a good printer. His cast was NORTORIOUSLY hit or miss with the braiding having bubbles, the tassels having bubbles, the sword bending back after heat treating, and on and on. So new Solar Marshal if done in resin will likely have that Minecraft body look a lot of stuff has now specific to reduce casting issues. CAD design is the catalyst for this shift from fiddly to robust. 

 

Funnily enough the original resin SA, often hailed as The example of overly intricate resin models are one of the first CAD designed experiments for FW apparently. So it's clearly a design/process choice, not a limitation.

[Robbienw]

It’s not in anyway caused by use of CAD.  
 

CAD allows realisation of extra details beyond hand sculpting.

 

Jenetia Krole is a CAD design.

 

Additionally many of the original FW designers from the 2000 to late 2010s era are still at GW doing 30k models.

 

The issue (if it an issue for you, for many it isn’t) is solely a change of design style.  GW changes design styles over time, sometimes led by technology, sometimes by artistic direction.  In this case it’s artistic direction.

Edited September 30 by Robbienw

[Orion]

 

It’s not in anyway caused by use of CAD.  
 

CAD allows realisation of extra details beyond hand sculpting.

 

The generic Praetor in the original post is a CAD design. Jenetia Krole is a CAD design.

 

Additionally many of the original FW designers from the 2000 to late 2010s era are still at GW doing 30k models.

 

The issue (if it an issue for you, for many it isn’t) is solely a change of design style.  GW changes design styles over time, sometimes led by technology, sometimes by artistic direction.  In this case it’s artistic direction.

 

I mostly agree, but that praetor isn't CAD.

 

[Gamiel]

 

This is what we get now:

I used this picture not only because it’s my favored Legion so I’ve kept track of this stuff more, but also because this is literally a resin FW model. The details have been oversimplified, things like armor trim are now chunky and cartoonish, and the overall design has gone from proportionate and realistic to a more… I don’t know, the only word I can really come up with is childish. 

Based on Visions of Heresy is he faithful to how Death Guards have been shown to look during the HH: chainmail drappings, tubes, large shoulder pads, thurible-like thing, and such.

[DuskRaider]

 

Based on Visions of Heresy is he faithful to how Death Guards have been shown to look during the HH: chainmail drappings, tubes, large shoulder pads, thurible-like thing, and such.

Do you mean the picture of the Deathshroud from that time? This one, I believe. 
 

I mean… kinda? But not really. I think the HH model is too busy, especially in the midsection and the pauldron. The iconography on the pauldron lacks any real depth or detail as well. You can tell it’s Death Guard obviously, but the detail and crispness of the older handmade pieces are just so much better. Also, I feel the model is just too busy, especially for a Legionnaire of the XIVth, a Legion who frowned upon ostentatiousness or excessive ornamentation. Obviously just my opinion, though. 

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

I've built like 150 krieg, each with pouches. I think the only thing I could be guilty of is too much experience.

 

 

Then downplaying the issues with super glue and resin figures is ridiculous and you shouldn’t do it. The loss of detail for the convenience of plastic wasn’t some malicious decision, the people that did the hand sculpts still manage the SG design department 

Edited September 30 by Marshal Rohr

[Antarius]

Regarding the fiddliness of models I think it's simply a matter of taste to some degree. I've assembled a Krieg army at one point and I definitely didn't enjoy it very much (and I've been assembling models since at least the mid-90s, so it's not (just) that I'm bad at it). But to some people, fiddliness is simply not an issue or perhaps even part of the enjoyment of putting models together and I can sort of see how that might be part of the appeal of some of the older FW kits. Speaking for myself, though, I could go many, many years without straightening a lasrifle barrel under hot water before I'd start to miss it.
I don't think it's all that different from how I have friends who don't enjoy assembling models at all, as well as friends who view painting as a purely instrumental thing and not a creative endeavour at all; people are just different when it comes to what they enjoy about the process of building their armies.

As for the design of the models, I think part of it is overall aesthetic direction and some of it is personal style/ability on the part of the designers. I mean, I can spot a Trish Camden mini a mile off and while I don't have the same knowledge of the different designers on the heresy range, I'd be surprised if they don't have at least somewhat distinct sculpting styles as well. As Tyriks mentioned, there are definitely duds in the modern range, but there always have been models that simply weren't up to snuff amongst the different ranges, both GW and FW.
So yeah, I don't think it's anything sinister, so much as a product of the (necessary?) overhaul of a lot of the accessory ranges and just having different designers working on the different legions at different points in time.

[Tyriks]

 

Regarding the fiddliness of models I think it's simply a matter of taste to some degree. I've assembled a Krieg army at one point and I definitely didn't enjoy it very much (and I've been assembling models since at least the mid-90s, so it's not (just) that I'm bad at it). But to some people, fiddliness is simply not an issue or perhaps even part of the enjoyment of putting models together and I can sort of see how that might be part of the appeal of some of the older FW kits. Speaking for myself, though, I could go many, many years without straightening a lasrifle barrel under hot water before I'd start to miss it.
I don't think it's all that different from how I have friends who don't enjoy assembling models at all, as well as friends who view painting as a purely instrumental thing and not a creative endeavour at all; people are just different when it comes to what they enjoy about the process of building their armies.

As for the design of the models, I think part of it is overall aesthetic direction and some of it is personal style/ability on the part of the designers. I mean, I can spot a Trish Camden mini a mile off and while I don't have the same knowledge of the different designers on the heresy range, I'd be surprised if they don't have at least somewhat distinct sculpting styles as well. As Tyriks mentioned, there are definitely duds in the modern range, but there always have been models that simply weren't up to snuff amongst the different ranges, both GW and FW.
So yeah, I don't think it's anything sinister, so much as a product of the (necessary?) overhaul of a lot of the accessory ranges and just having different designers working on the different legions at different points in time.

Well said. I have learned to enjoy working with FW resin (though I still hate finecast) but I still prefer plastic, and I fully understand why some people hate it.  Especially when the cost comes into play!  Some FW stuff is just stupidly expensive.

[Gamiel]

 

Do you mean the picture of the Deathshroud from that time? This one, I believe. 

[...]

It was one of my references but was more thinking of the Death Guard Space Marine, Morturg, Geldurk, Vengeance, Ujioj, and Holgoarg illustrations, and all the different versions of Mortarion in Visions of Heresy 

Edited September 30 by Gamiel

[DuskRaider]

 

It was one of my references but was more thinking of the Death Guard Space Marine, Morturg, Geldurk, Vengeance, Ujioj, and Holgoarg illustrations, and all the different versions of Mortarion in Visions of Heresy 

The biggest issue is that the actual contents of Visions came out well before established lore via the black books of HHv1. Things were kinda fast and loose at the time of Collected Visions and the really old TCG. It’s more as an historical collection of older artwork when the Heresy was seen more as mythology and GW decided to go more in depth with media such as the BL series and the original FW series, which I tend to look at more as canon than anything else as it approaches the Legions, their organizations and their philosophy in a more historically relevant context than the BL books IMO. 
 

I would highly recommend checking them out if you haven’t, I believe you can find scans of them online seeing as the books are long out of print. 
 

Edit: actually, one more thing I want to add: I do actually prefer that iteration of the Deathshroud compared to what FW gave us. While I understand why they would wear Tartaros plate (superior mobility), I feel they would just… fit in better with Cataphractii. It seems as though GW themselves agree with me, since the 40K version of Deathshroud have somehow ditched their Tartaros armor for Cataphractii with no explanation. 

Edited September 30 by DuskRaider

[Orion]

 

Then downplaying the issues with super glue and resin figures is ridiculous and you shouldn’t do it. The loss of detail for the convenience of plastic wasn’t some malicious decision, the people that did the hand sculpts still manage the SG design department 

 

No.

 

Lets recap:

You claimed

"Solar Aux is a great example of exactly what I mean about the new way they design stuff in CAD"

Solar Aux have always been CAD.

The original models were 2 pieces

The new ones are 14 pieces

How is that a "great example" of your point of them being less fiddly? It doesn't even relate to the OP.

 

Then you claimed Krieg are a "nightmare" to work with

I disagreed.

You tried to discredit that by assuming I haven't worked with them.

I showed that I had, and a lot. And enjoyed it.

Then you state I shouldn't have that opinion, or share it. 

 

And to top it off you seem to think I'm conflating an artistic decision with a "malicious" one. 

I never stated that. I just don't see how you can think this is a push towards CAD being a major influence on the design changes, when your specific example of the old ways being a CAD designed model.

[roryokane]

 

There has definitely been a homogenization of the aesthetics between FW and GW "proper". I personally don't much care for it, but I do understand the argument that the more hyperdetailed stuff was a faff to paint. Or at least, I would if modern GW plastics weren't so plastered with added knick-knacks and tiny details that painting them was even more of a chore.

 

Personally my biggest irritation with the loss of FW as its own thing is the death of Imperial Armour and the cool quasi-historical, highly detailed stories that went with them, along with the cool units and models they introduced that were more niche than would justify a full plastic kit. I noticed the XV9 Hazard suits got the chop recently, very sad about that; those were really cool models.

This is 100% my biggest gribe about the loss of Forgeworld and their books. Whether it was IA books or the HH Black books - it felt like reading a gigantic Osprey Publishing book (complete with lovely artwork) with some rules thrown in! 

[Matcap86]

 

This is 100% my biggest gribe about the loss of Forgeworld and their books. Whether it was IA books or the HH Black books - it felt like reading a gigantic Osprey Publishing book (complete with lovely artwork) with some rules thrown in! 

 

Gods if they just rereleased those books without the rules... It'd be printing money.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

This actually came up in my local GW today. Everyone felt that, at least as far as Space Marines go, GW has shifted to an aesthetic style influenced by Marvel rather than what influenced Firstborn and that HH is closer to 'classic' 40k. 

 

Even if that isn't true it certainly feels that way to a degree. 

 

Though I do think with the right paintjob Primaris (in particular the hover tanks) can still look grim dark. 

 

I suppose at the end of the day it is a very subjective thing. 

[darkhorse0607]

I will say, even as someone still in camp "firstborn look better," Space Marine 2 has given me a new appreciation for Primaris as basic as it sounds

 

A fully kitted-out Primaris in there can look pretty great IMO, again, still not as great as Firstborn (for example I still think the armor in the Deathwatch opening section looks far better), but still, it's given me that sense of appreciation that Dawn of War did all those years ago getting to see them move and fight with the firstborn

 

Which leads me to believe, that half of the issue I have is with the GW kits and not giving you the bling that the firstborn kits (both generic and chapter-specific) do with the different helmets, obnoxiously ornamented shoulder pads, skulls everywhere, etc.

 

 

[DuskRaider]

 

This actually came up in my local GW today. Everyone felt that, at least as far as Space Marines go, GW has shifted to an aesthetic style influenced by Marvel rather than what influenced Firstborn and that HH is closer to 'classic' 40k. 

 

Even if that isn't true it certainly feels that way to a degree. 

 

Though I do think with the right paintjob Primaris (in particular the hover tanks) can still look grim dark. 

 

I suppose at the end of the day it is a very subjective thing. 

A good paint job can make just about anything look good, to this I agree. I do think their analogy to Marvel is a pretty good one as well, it’s hard (for me at least) to accurately describe what is going on. 

[Inquisitor lorr]

I definitely agree that ‘something’ has happened in the past few years. I’m not au fait enough with processes to know exactly what, but I think CAD probably lowered the skill entry level for ‘sculptors’ which has in turn led to a loss of detail; combined with a design ethos change; combined with ease of production. All of which are a shame, as the finer details have really been largely lost / ruined in more recent models. The trend towards chunky/plain details is not one I love.
 

Slightly OT, but this same issue is very clearly seen in the Battle for Middle Earth range (or whatever they’ve rebranded to these days). Those models were some of the best sculpts ever in my view, and what we have now is awful - lack of detail, blur of textures, homogenisation of design and styles etc. So it’s not just FW (albeit I accept a lot of the Middle Earth quality issues are probably because of the loss of the Perry twins). 

Edited October 5 by Inquisitor lorr

[jaxom]

 

The biggest issue is that the actual contents of Visions came out well before established lore via the black books of HHv1. Things were kinda fast and loose at the time of Collected Visions and the really old TCG. It’s more as an historical collection of older artwork when the Heresy was seen more as mythology and GW decided to go more in depth with media such as the BL series and the original FW series, which I tend to look at more as canon than anything else as it approaches the Legions, their organizations and their philosophy in a more historically relevant context than the BL books IMO. 
 

I would highly recommend checking them out if you haven’t, I believe you can find scans of them online seeing as the books are long out of print. 
 

Edit: actually, one more thing I want to add: I do actually prefer that iteration of the Deathshroud compared to what FW gave us. While I understand why they would wear Tartaros plate (superior mobility), I feel they would just… fit in better with Cataphractii. It seems as though GW themselves agree with me, since the 40K version of Deathshroud have somehow ditched their Tartaros armor for Cataphractii with no explanation. 

In part, I think it's also because the generic Praetor is from the second big wave; the point when FW had nailed down what they wanted. The first wave all have the "skipped leg day" aesthetic common in Rogue Trader-era art of power armor, very much like many of the Visions of Heresy marines and TCG squad artworks. I think Visions of Heresy acted as an intermediate layer of concept art between John Blanche's work and the HH miniatures. It's a well they dip into. I definitely agree it's about artistic direction.  My recent deep dive into Blood Angel art and models really drove that home, along with all the new 40k Marines having the Goodwin aesthetic instead of the Diaz aesthetic. However, more relevant to Forge World... the VoH art trawl I did when the new Mk3 came out. They were hitting VoH hard. 

 

In particular:

I saw this when I grabbed the link and immediately you can see both the original skinny leg syndrome and a pauldron worthy of the new Death Guard Praetor.