How do you like eliminators?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Just got a box, and planning to use 2 las fusils with the carbine on the sgt.

 

my army is lacking in weapons particularly ranged weapons that can hit above S8, so the fusils will help plug that gap as a pair of shoot and scoot baby lascannons.

[DemonGSides]

I think the las fusil are meh and there's so many better options for the shooting you're looking for, especially without having three of them.

 

If I went las fusil I would consider grabbing a phobos librarian as well, that way they basically become an unassailable turret that can sit and plink out 2+ last shots with devastating wounds, 3 a turn.

 

I think they got butchered after they got knocked down to 3man only squad.  Previously I liked them for Headhunting, but I mostly play against necrons and they win or lose based on their leader benefits (or did).

[Galron]

They arent bad for what they are. Move, shoot movers and hope they chip some damage and maybe hold an objective and stay a minor enough nuisance that they stay ignored. In small games the carbine option is fine, in larger games if you have the spare points and arent using a phobos libby for infiltrators or happen to have a spare then the above mentioned fusil turret application works as well. I prefer them with Vanguard for survivability and strat combo reasons.

 

Since the nerf to their cloaks they arent near as good as they used to be in the other detachments since there are only three of them. I cant remember if I took them in my last tournament list a few months ago. I think I opted out for some heavier firepower. 

[CCE1981]

They seem like a cheap unit unit you realize you need a Phobos Librarian to get any use out of them, then they are pretty expensive for what they provide.

[Casual Heresy]

I like them with Las-fusils as backfield objective holders that can help finish off something that a dedicated anti-tank unit has weakened. I wouldn't ever rely on them to fufil the same anti-tank role that something like a Ballistus or Lancer would fill. But they can certainly support those kind of units while holding your back field. I wish the sniper rifles had their various ammo types like before. 

 

I haven't done tried them with a Phobos Librarian, but I've had that combo used against me, and I can confirm they become a Throne-damned nuisance. 

 

Though they're on 40mm bases, I've found a unit of three easy to hide when the situation has called for it. But dearly wish they could be taken in units of six atleast. 

Edited October 2 by Casual Heresy

[TheArtilleryman]

I’ve used them with bolt sniper rifles pretty effectively, and without any character support. They are lethal to enemy characters because of the precision rule and on one occasion they managed to take out a Plague Surgeon and a Lord of Contagion in the same game, even though they were part of a unit.

 

Edit: I don’t use the carbine either, just 3 rifles.

Edited October 3 by TheArtilleryman

[Helias_Tancred]

Always either hit or miss.

[Marshal Mittens]

I love them. I mostly use the normal sniper rifle as that's what I have modeled. They are very cheap and almost always make their points back.

 

I often take 3 of them, and usually try and break enemy combos by killing their characters with them. I also use them to pick off elites and the such. Not great but not bad. I like them. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

 

I think they got butchered after they got knocked down to 3man only squad.  Previously I liked them for Headhunting, but I mostly play against necrons and they win or lose based on their leader benefits (or did).

 

They've always been a 3-man only squad. What is this "previously" you speak of?

[Galron]

I think he means the scout sniper squad

[DemonGSides]

 

 

They've always been a 3-man only squad. What is this "previously" you speak of?

 

Yeah as mentioned I was thinking of scouts. Had a buddy who used a 3 man eliminator and a 5 man scout sniper squad and got them turned around in my head. 

[TheArtilleryman]

 

Always either hit or miss.

Yup. Every time you roll the dice.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I like them with Las-fusils as backfield objective holders that can help finish off something that a dedicated anti-tank unit has weakened. I wouldn't ever rely on them to fufil the same anti-tank role that something like a Ballistus or Lancer would fill. But they can certainly support those kind of units while holding your back field. I wish the sniper rifles had their various ammo types like before. 

 

I haven't done tried them with a Phobos Librarian, but I've had that combo used against me, and I can confirm they become a Throne-damned nuisance. 

 

Though they're on 40mm bases, I've found a unit of three easy to hide when the situation has called for it. But dearly wish they could be taken in units of six atleast. 

Not planning to rely on them as AT necessarily, but that S9 is a good breaking point for messing up light vehicles like (most) walkers, transports, and skimmers, or as you noted trying to finish off hurt tanks and monsters.

[AutumnEffect]

 

I like the Bolt Sniper Rifle option the most, even for targeting light vehicles and have two squads with it. The D6 damage of the Las Fusil is a big let down and I'd rather have a flat 3 damage even if I'm fishing for higher wound rolls. 1/3rd of the time a wound squeaks through with the Fusil it'll only be 1 or 2 damage and that's just the definition of disappointment.

 

The Bolt Sniper Rifle is a pretty flexible weapon because of that flat 3 damage. If they stand still to get Devastating Wounds and can get re-rolls on wounds then there's 50.04% odds they do 3 mortal wounds to the target, 11.2% odds of doing 6.

Edited October 3 by AutumnEffect

[SvenIronhand]

I like the Bolt Sniper, too. It helps greatly against my current regular opponents, who play Guard and DEldar respectively. Picking out a character at range can mess with one's gameplan. Or, they can do some plain jane anti-infantry shooting if need be.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

I like the Bolt Sniper Rifle option the most, even for targeting light vehicles and have two squads with it. The D6 damage of the Las Fusil is a big let down and I'd rather have a flat 3 damage even if I'm fishing for higher wound rolls. 1/3rd of the time a wound squeaks through with the Fusil it'll only be 1 or 2 damage and that's just the definition of disappointment.

 

The Bolt Sniper Rifle is a pretty flexible weapon because of that flat 3 damage. If they stand still to get Devastating Wounds and can get re-rolls on wounds then there's 50.04% odds they do 3 mortal wounds to the target, 11.2% odds of doing 6.

This is just straight up wrong though. Just because you "might" be disappointed doesn't mean the Bolt Sniper is any good ve a vehicle. Assuming Heavy bonus, against a T10 vehicle the Fusil does an average of almost 1 wound. The Bolt doesn't even hit half a wound. Against T9 you're looking at 1 wound for the Fusil vs half a wound for the Bolt. 

 

I didn't bother looking for Dev Wounds because it's too early for that math. 

 

Having D3 doesn't matter vs Dd6 when you can't wound to begin with and have less AP value. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

I like the Bolt Sniper Rifle option the most, even for targeting light vehicles and have two squads with it. The D6 damage of the Las Fusil is a big let down and I'd rather have a flat 3 damage even if I'm fishing for higher wound rolls. 1/3rd of the time a wound squeaks through with the Fusil it'll only be 1 or 2 damage and that's just the definition of disappointment.

 

The Bolt Sniper Rifle is a pretty flexible weapon because of that flat 3 damage. If they stand still to get Devastating Wounds and can get re-rolls on wounds then there's 50.04% odds they do 3 mortal wounds to the target, 11.2% odds of doing 6.

I mean I guess its a PoV thing.

 

with the bolt sniper against T10+ 1/6 of your hits are wounding, or against T6-9 they only have 1/3 chance of wounding.

 

even if the fusil has a 1/3 chance of doing only 1-2 wounds, it has a 1/3 chance of wounding that T10 vehicle.

 

i guess it just comes down to, would you rather have steady reliable damage when you do wound, or would you rather have a better chance of wounding, and just getting any damage in at all? Especially when you consider the the difference in AP.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

I like the Bolt Sniper, too. It helps greatly against my current regular opponents, who play Guard and DEldar respectively. Picking out a character at range can mess with one's gameplan. Or, they can do some plain jane anti-infantry shooting if need be.

Bolt and las both have 1 shot each, so either way, you’re looking at the las fusil doing better plain Jane anti-infantry since it will be wounding on 2s and 3s into elite infantry(which arguably isn’t plain Jane infantry), and AP-3.

 

its a bit of a matter of opinion, but to me MEQ isn’t plain Jane infantry, GEQ and similar are what I would call plain Jane infantry.

[DemonGSides]

 

Bolt and las both have 1 shot each, so either way, you’re looking at the las fusil doing better plain Jane anti-infantry since it will be wounding on 2s and 3s into elite infantry(which arguably isn’t plain Jane infantry), and AP-3.

 

its a bit of a matter of opinion, but to me MEQ isn’t plain Jane infantry, GEQ and similar are what I would call plain Jane infantry.

 

They literally said they play against guard and de the most lol

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

 

 

They literally said they play against guard and de the most lol

Doesn’t mean they don’t consider intercessors to be plain Jane infantry 

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

They literally said they play against guard and de the most lol

Well if they're playing against DE they'd probably still need the Las Fusil for the vehicles that they run by default. The Bolt's main sell is the precision, as both options are just inefficient vs any regular infantry. If you're not using that rule, what's the point of not just going Las Fusil?

[AutumnEffect]

 

This is just straight up wrong though. Just because you "might" be disappointed doesn't mean the Bolt Sniper is any good ve a vehicle. Assuming Heavy bonus, against a T10 vehicle the Fusil does an average of almost 1 wound. The Bolt doesn't even hit half a wound. Against T9 you're looking at 1 wound for the Fusil vs half a wound for the Bolt. 

 

I didn't bother looking for Dev Wounds because it's too early for that math. 

 

Having D3 doesn't matter vs Dd6 when you can't wound to begin with and have less AP value. 

 

So, a couple things to parse through.

Firstly, I didn't say that the Bolt Sniper Rifle is any good against vehicles. I said I prefer it over the Las Fusil even against light vehicles.
In my honest opinion, they are both terrible weapons against vehicles.

 

Most 'light' vehicles and transports, like the Ravager, Chimera, Rhino, Wave Serpent and Devilfish, tend to be toughness 9 and 3+ armor.

Against these 3 Las Fusil will do, on average, about four wounds:


The Bolt Sniper Rifle on the other hand, will do, on average, two wounds.





So the Las Fusil has better odds of doing more damage against vehicles, right?
Yes! Absolutely.
But lets put this into context. 
This is four Lascannons vs the same target from a squad of Devastators:


That's a 58% increase in damage for only 30% more points armed with a sister weapon.

Against vehicles that are tougher than T-9 the normal Lascannon pulls way ahead, being able to damage even T-11 main battle tanks on a 3+.
And this isn't even the best anti-tank weapon the Devastators have access to. It's the Grav-Cannon. I chose the Lascannon to make the comparison simpler.

Eliminators are 28.33 points for a  Lascannon
Devastators are just 24 points for an actual Lascannon.

 

You should not be buying Eliminators for anti-tank. It's just a bad investment.

 

My point is:
Both weapons are pretty at dealing damage to even light vehicles.
But the Bolt Sniper Rifle can do other things too. 

This is why I prefer it. It has an identity other than being a crap Lascannon you have to pay more points for.

 

The question isn't "If you're not using Precision, what's the point of not just going Las Fusil?"

 

The question is "If you are taking a Las Fusil, why are you not just getting a Lascannon?"

Edited October 3 by AutumnEffect

[Indy Techwisp]

 

The question is "If you are taking a Las Fusil, why are you not just getting a Lascannon?"

Personally, I can think of one, very non-primaris shaped reason why someone might just not take the unit with a Lascannon.

That said, the Las-Fusils aren't really AT weapons anyway, they're Anti-TEQ weapons.

and if you don't need Anti-TEQ, then just take the Bolt Sniper Rifles.

 

On another note, If you stick a Phobos Libby to the Eliminator Squad, is the unit still able to "Shoot and Scoot" using the Carbine?

[AutumnEffect]

 

Personally, I can think of one, very non-primaris shaped reason why someone might just not take the unit with a Lascannon.

 

If the reason you don't want to take the Devastators is because they aren't primaris then there's a Gravis shaped unit with Melta Rifles and special rules that make it probably the best bang-for-your-buck anti-armor infantry unit in the Space Marine roster as is.

 

I chose the Devastators with Lascannons to make the comparison simpler, as I said. Devastators with Lascannons are mediocre anti-tank themselves, but they fulfil the same 'sit and shoot 36" lasers' role.

 

 

On another note, If you stick a Phobos Libby to the Eliminator Squad, is the unit still able to "Shoot and Scoot" using the Carbine?

 

"In your Shooting phase, after this unit has shot, if it contains an Eliminator Sergeant equipped with an instigator bolt carbine, this unit can make a Normal move."

There is not mention of it in the FAQ.
 

So yes it can.

[HeadlessCross]

 

 

So, a couple things to parse through.

Firstly, I didn't say that the Bolt Sniper Rifle is any good against vehicles. I said I prefer it over the Las Fusil even against light vehicles.
In my honest opinion, they are both terrible weapons against vehicles.

 

Most 'light' vehicles and transports, like the Ravager, Chimera, Rhino, Wave Serpent and Devilfish, tend to be toughness 9 and 3+ armor.

Against these 3 Las Fusil will do, on average, about four wounds:


The Bolt Sniper Rifle on the other hand, will do, on average, two wounds.





So the Las Fusil has better odds of doing more damage against vehicles, right?
Yes! Absolutely.
But lets put this into context. 
This is four Lascannons vs the same target from a squad of Devastators:


That's a 58% increase in damage for only 30% more points armed with a sister weapon.

Against vehicles that are tougher than T-9 the normal Lascannon pulls way ahead, being able to damage even T-11 main battle tanks on a 3+.
And this isn't even the best anti-tank weapon the Devastators have access to. It's the Grav-Cannon. I chose the Lascannon to make the comparison simpler.

Eliminators are 28.33 points for a  Lascannon
Devastators are just 24 points for an actual Lascannon.

 

You should not be buying Eliminators for anti-tank. It's just a bad investment.

 

My point is:
Both weapons are pretty at dealing damage to even light vehicles.
But the Bolt Sniper Rifle can do other things too. 

This is why I prefer it. It has an identity other than being a crap Lascannon you have to pay more points for.

 

The question isn't "If you're not using Precision, what's the point of not just going Las Fusil?"

 

The question is "If you are taking a Las Fusil, why are you not just getting a Lascannon?"

The "other things" it does is that it has Precision. That's it. Both are horribly inefficient into regular dudes of all kinds. Hence why I said, if you're not going to use that particular trait, might as well get the Las Fusils. 

 

Las Fusils also do have a case with the Phobos Librarian. If standing still, they give his psychic blast Devastating Wounds without needing to charge himself up, and it's just slightly more expensive than two Firestrike Turrets, which might be better offensively but are terrible defensively and have no movement.