Legions Imperialis: The Rise of the Dark Mechanicum + Serperos ‘Overlord’ Heavy Stalker

[Matrindur]

27 minutes ago, DuskRaider said:

Speaking of Dark Mechanicum, it seems like anything related to their debut in Adeptus Titanicus is absent from this book. I have to wonder how they’re planning to tackle this or, more expectedly and disappointingly, if they will at all. Terminals alone do not an army make and I fear we’ll be stuck with a Warhammer Community article or nothing at all. 

Having to buy a LI book to get the Titanicus rules would be pretty bad.

Its very likely going to be a pdf on WarCom, small chance for a book if they want to introduce some more rules. 

[Lord Marshal]

The Titan rules do come off as "fine, here you go, you don't have to house rule taking just Titans anymore, happy?" written through gritted teeth. That said, Mechanicum having relatively easy access to them without being bound by Allies makes the faction a good stepping stone for people who want to dip their toes in from AT.

 

On the other hand, I can definitely imagine the Vanguard Lance seeing some play, as Cerastus Lancers are generally considered pretty decent and anything that gets them stuck in faster can only make them better. +2 CAF and +1 Wound on a single Knight in Barony Lance probably isn't going to be enough to save Questoris (especially when you can give that upgrade to the Cerastus anyway), so there's a certain bitterness to the best Formation making the best Knight even better.

 

I haven't read much of the influencer coverage of Mechanicum yet. I suppose the Dark Mechanicum lacking Automata is mainly done so Loyalists don't feel left out if they got everything in addition to the new spiders?

 

Edited October 19 by Lord Marshal

[DuskRaider]

I’m not a big fan of Dark Mechanicum losing out on the Automata, considering that’s a big part of the Starter Box. Kinda gives me pause on ordering it, truth be told. 
 

The Knight formations actually getting special rules is nice, but I don’t think their points have dropped enough to really field much of anything. I suppose you could take them as an allied formation or whatever since it seems there’s no limit on them with the Mechanicum (I could be wrong). 

[Burni]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I apologise if I've missed this in the review somewhere, but can Normal Mechanicum be Traitor Aligned or are you forced to used Dark Mechanicum to be Traitor aligned?

I’d also like to know the answer to this. I’m guessing you can (just lose access to the stalkers and any formations) but would be good to know for sure. I’ll certainly be building and painting everything in the box for my traitor forge world.

 

In that note: Does the book have any colour plates showing dark mech forge world schemes?

[Lord Marshal]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I apologise if I've missed this in the review somewhere, but can Normal Mechanicum be Traitor Aligned or are you forced to used Dark Mechanicum to be Traitor aligned?

10 minutes ago, Burni said:

I’d also like to know the answer to this. I’m guessing you can (just lose access to the stalkers and any formations) but would be good to know for sure. I’ll certainly be building and painting everything in the box for my traitor forge world.

 

Squinting at GMG's review, it doesn't look like Dark Mechanicum armies/Formations (barring Of Legend obviously) are Traitor-locked, but all of their unique units have the Traitor keyword. 

 

You can also ally in Dark Mechanicum Formations to Taghmata armies, but I'm not spotting a vice versa reference...?

 

 

Edited October 19 by Lord Marshal

[DuskRaider]

So then what’s the point of barring Automata from Dark Mechanicum when they can just take an “allied” force of them? For that matter, why would Taghmata Mechanicum bother with Dark Mechanicum formations if they cannot take the unique units and would only be limiting themselves to less than what they already have access to?

 

None of this makes sense to me unless I’m missing something. It reeks of no forethought whatsoever. I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but man… I just don’t understand what they were thinking with a lot of this. I’m grateful for a new faction (or two? or four?), but when it’s kinda half-assed just to push out more product it feels kind of weird. Just like I don’t understand why Vulturax weren’t made fliers to give Mechanicum some much needed Air Support without forcing the player to take at least one allied formation of Astartes or Solar Aux to prevent the very real possibility of being wiped off the board by Turn Two at the hands (guns?) of massed aircraft. 

[Marshal Rohr]

I like that the Mechanicum seems to address the infantry in structures headache, but don’t like that it seems they are designing the game in a way that requires you to have a bit of everything to address core rules feelsbads. The Titan formations also make zero sense to me, because AT needed to balance the Maniples against the special rules but if you aren’t adding special rules to maniples we should be able to run the full five Warlord heavy maniples from the lore. I imagine their thought process is future proofing for the day Titan Armies also have decent infantry support, but it’s still head scratching. I just don’t enjoy the way they organized the formations. We should be able to simulate the way the legions and such actually were organized in the background instead of simulating the armies we see in 28mm. 

[Mandragola]

A few people have asked about allegiance. The book is pretty much silent on the subject. Instead, if you look at pages 126-7 of the BRB it describes the process of building an army. You pick your allegiance first and then pick any factions you want to be your primary and secondary forces. 
 

So any of the factions can be loyal or traitor. In theory that includes Dark Mechanicum though, as all their Detachments have to be Traitor, some of their formations can’t have their compulsory slots filled if you went loyalist and you gain no benefit over normal Mechanicum.

 

Normal or Dark Mech can both be your primary or secondary force because anything can be. The book suggests using core Taghmata and allied Dark Mech to represent a more traditional forge world that has turned traitor, or primary Dark Mech for people who went all in. 

[Arendious]

4 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

So then what’s the point of barring Automata from Dark Mechanicum when they can just take an “allied” force of them? For that matter, why would Taghmata Mechanicum bother with Dark Mechanicum formations if they cannot take the unique units and would only be limiting themselves to less than what they already have access to?

 

None of this makes sense to me unless I’m missing something. It reeks of no forethought whatsoever. I’m not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but man… I just don’t understand what they were thinking with a lot of this. I’m grateful for a new faction (or two? or four?), but when it’s kinda half-assed just to push out more product it feels kind of weird. Just like I don’t understand why Vulturax weren’t made fliers to give Mechanicum some much needed Air Support without forcing the player to take at least one allied formation of Astartes or Solar Aux to prevent the very real possibility of being wiped off the board by Turn Two at the hands (guns?) of massed aircraft. 

 

"Reeks of no forethought whatsoever" is pretty much the official tagline for Legions Imperialis. 

 

I love the game and the models, but rules-wise I always get the feeling that there's two people working on the game. One is a model sculptor with severe ADHD, and the other is a randomly chosen intern who has to sneak into the sculptor's office, collect whatever he's finished recently, and then write a rule book about it.

Edited October 19 by Arendious

[DuskRaider]

14 minutes ago, Arendious said:

 

"Reeks of no forethought whatsoever" is pretty much the official tagline for Legions Imperialis. 

 

I love the game and the models, but rules-wise I always get the feeling that there's two people working on the game. One is a model sculptor with severe ADHD, and the other is a randomly chosen intern who has to sneak into the sculptor's office, collect whatever he's finished recently, and then write a rule book about it.

Absolutely, it’s so incredibly frustrating because I want to love this game and I had high hopes for this expansion but I should have known better judging by previous installments. 
 

I’m hoping that after some time we (the community) will find a way to play this faction(s) and overcome any difficulties that it currently looks to have.
 

I still don’t understand the logic of “we’ll limit automatons to the Taghmata (Loyalists) and give Dark Mechanicum some cool new constructs, but give both the option to take each other’s formations as an ally… but the Taghmata can’t take the new constructs. Oh, and no fliers for these guys either. At all.”

 

I guess the upside for Taghmata is that they don’t have to take an allied contingent to have access to the various automata and that frees up space for the inevitable formation of allied Astartes or Solar Auxilia Air Support you will need, but at the same time what’s the point of them having access to the Dark Mech stuff if they can’t actually take the units that make those formations work? The Loyalists aren’t even my faction and I’m scratching my head at this decision, and the only thing I can come up with is that they didn’t really think any of this through, like they don’t even play their own game. I’m just baffled and if anyone has some insight or can wrap their head around it or especially the decision to NOT make Vulturax fliers I would love to hear it. 
 

The same goes for Titan “Maniples”. What’s the point of forcing players to take the various Maniples, some of which are restricted in their structure due to the abilities they receive in the better game, if you aren’t going to give any advantage or special abilities for said Maniples? Or why didn’t they muck with the points of the Knights to allow them to take actual Banners and Lances like in AT and not only give them an actual chance on the board, but make them feel like an actual faction proper? Neither of these would have been especially difficult, all it takes is a little thought and considering how much of an investment the game is, you’d expect them to do so. 
 

I'm going to invest into the Mechanicum, but I feel like the biggest reason I’m doing so is for completion’s sake on my end and less for the experience of playing them on the table per say. I had said before that I was really looking forward to seeing how they incorporate the Dark Mech Stalkers into AT, but after this I may be more fearful than anything else. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Yep. Titans have gone too far away from AT rules to work properly. 

Titans in LI need all the templates they get in AT to make them deadly. A couple of dice just don't cut it.

They need more wounds and an ability to self repair. Servitors are a thing.

They need to be harder to hit and hurt in CC, they literally just walk on from non special infantry. 

Don't even start on how subpar Knights are...

 

This book was the opportunity to redress the poor rules, I've ordered it, but now we have reviews I'm shaking my head at it.

 

My Lad may take Dark Mechanicum for infantry type allies to his Mech/Tank Solar army, but he's dubious now.

We each have ~7k worth of Titans/Knights, no chance of them being played as a faction until LI v2.0

 

Edited October 19 by Interrogator Stobz

[Indy Techwisp]

23 minutes ago, DuskRaider said:

I guess the upside for Taghmata is that they don’t have to take an allied contingent to have access to the various automata and that frees up space for the inevitable formation of allied Astartes or Solar Auxilia Air Support you will need, but at the same time what’s the point of them having access to the Dark Mech stuff if they can’t actually take the units that make those formations work?

 

Apparently, book has this to say on that:

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

The book suggests using core Taghmata and allied Dark Mech to represent a more traditional forge world that has turned traitor, or primary Dark Mech for people who went all in. 

 

But yeah, you're probably taking Marines or Solar Auxilia as allies to round out the list and cover it's blindspots.

[Mandragola]

To be fair, if you take Taghmata with Dark Mech allies (or vice versa) you can’t *also* take Legionaries or Auxilia. It does limit you somewhat.

 

I think I’ll use my stuff as allies for my Legionaries. I’d like to bring some plasma mortar Thanatars and maybe skirmishing Vorax, which are annoyingly difficult to get into a single formation. I’d quite like to avoid painting 40 useless thralls if possible. 

[vadersson]

Well disappointed with a lot of the overall fit of the rules into the game.  But I do like how some of the faction internal rules look, even if they may not work out in play.  The whole limited orders on the robots is super cool and the way the Dark Mechanicum stuff works together is really neat.  

The Titan and Knight things sound like a huge disappointment, which is sad since I actually bought the knight box from GW direct today.  (First time I ever went direct!)  I really am hoping to enjoy my Knights in some LI, but it sounds like house rules would be needed to make them really fun.  :)

I feel like the Titan (and to a lesser point Knight) armies were added due to feedback.  It feels pretty tacked on.  But at least they are listening.  But they don't seem to be hearing the real issues like Infantry charges, or excessive overwatch.  I fear that we may not have more than a couple (at best) people actually writing to rulebooks and the pace of releases is not letting them update things.  I feel like I need to convert everything back to Epic Space Marine 2nd or something to play a real game.  :(

 

[DuskRaider]

1 hour ago, Mandragola said:

To be fair, if you take Taghmata with Dark Mech allies (or vice versa) you can’t *also* take Legionaries or Auxilia. It does limit you somewhat.

 

I think I’ll use my stuff as allies for my Legionaries. I’d like to bring some plasma mortar Thanatars and maybe skirmishing Vorax, which are annoyingly difficult to get into a single formation. I’d quite like to avoid painting 40 useless thralls if possible. 

True, but a lot of the rules and decisions they made with this book are head scratchers. Like I said, one of the most obvious is not making Vulturax, the obvious candidate to write as Air Support, is oddly a skimmer, thus denying the two main factions of this book a flying machine and basically requiring you to take allies. 
 

This book could have been a sort of redemption for GW, but instead they made some dumb decisions that the community has already pointed out and the book isn’t even released yet. I’d say that they have their reasons, but what those could be are a mystery to me and it points more to their turning a blind eye to the meta of the game. 
 

I can say from experience that the one game I played without air support was a struggle to say the least. You’re at a massive disadvantage when your opponent is fielding aircraft and you aren’t or, in the case of Mechanicum now, simply can’t. I’d say the same for Titans and Knights, but I doubt many will be taking them exclusively. 

[Mandragola]

The Vulturax is tiny compared to the AI planes so I can see why they made it a skimmer. I don’t think we could really pretend that it’s a fighter plane. I think the unit’s effectiveness feels about right for its scale relative to other stuff. 
 

However, they could easily have just given them fighters. The book mentions servitor-piloted avengers at one point and I’m sure I’ve heard of the Mechanicum using thunderbolts. Or they could have just designed one for them, or used the flappy 40K things. It’s a glaring gap and one they could have filled in multiple ways. 
 

I still like this book. It’s not really its fault that the core issues with the game exist. I’d definitely like to see a major FAQ/errata for the game and with any luck we’ll get one. 
 

This book does its job fairly well. Ok, the titan legion bit is rubbish and the knights not great, though they do have some play. Personally I’d like to see both redone quite thoroughly. The Mech and Dark Mech army lists seem well done to me though. There cool stuff but it’s not oppressive in the way that vanquisgers or infiltrate are. 

[Indy Techwisp]

9 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

The Vulturax is tiny compared to the AI planes so I can see why they made it a skimmer. I don’t think we could really pretend that it’s a fighter plane. I think the unit’s effectiveness feels about right for its scale relative to other stuff. 

 

The Vulturax is just a non-plagueified Bloat Drone, which also isn't an Aircraft.

[DuskRaider]

27 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

The Vulturax is tiny compared to the AI planes so I can see why they made it a skimmer. I don’t think we could really pretend that it’s a fighter plane. I think the unit’s effectiveness feels about right for its scale relative to other stuff. 
 

However, they could easily have just given them fighters. The book mentions servitor-piloted avengers at one point and I’m sure I’ve heard of the Mechanicum using thunderbolts. Or they could have just designed one for them, or used the flappy 40K things. It’s a glaring gap and one they could have filled in multiple ways. 
 

I still like this book. It’s not really its fault that the core issues with the game exist. I’d definitely like to see a major FAQ/errata for the game and with any luck we’ll get one. 
 

This book does its job fairly well. Ok, the titan legion bit is rubbish and the knights not great, though they do have some play. Personally I’d like to see both redone quite thoroughly. The Mech and Dark Mech army lists seem well done to me though. There cool stuff but it’s not oppressive in the way that vanquisgers or infiltrate are. 

I would have been happy if they had given them the option to be fielded in larger squadrons and taken as fliers, if anything just to chase other aircraft around.

 

Bloat Drones aren’t aircraft because there’s less of a need for them in 40K and even then, Chaos has multiple options in that category. They are very much needed in LI and it’s a missed opportunity to at the very least give them the aforementioned servitude-piloted Avengers. 

Edited October 20 by DuskRaider

[Schrödingers Primarch]

The Mechanicum Battlegroup is 1320 points, it's a great box for doubling up on and pairing with a titan or knights for a lower cost 3000 point army. It'll probably fair decently in games with the amount of walkers and infantry to boot. A single box could bring flavor, as an ally Taghmata with the Ordo Reductor Subdivision or Taghma Sub-covenant detachment's. 

The Dark Mechanicum list restrictions are interesting....I hope this isn't a sign of things to come for 30k lists in restricting automata. At least we have a glimmer of hope for a Dark Mechanicum Battlegroup in both game systems due to unique kits. 

Edited October 20 by Schrödingers Primarch

[DuskRaider]

1 hour ago, Schrödingers Primarch said:

The Mechanicum Battlegroup is 1370 points, it's a great box for doubling up on and pairing with a titan or knights for a lower cost 3000 point army. It'll probably fair decently in games with the amount of walkers and infantry to boot. A single box could bring flavor, as an ally Taghmata with the Ordo Reductor Subdivision or Taghma Sub-covenant detachment's. 

The Dark Mechanicum list restrictions are interesting....I hope this isn't a sign of things to come for 30k lists in restricting automata. At least we have a glimmer of hope for a Dark Mechanicum Battlegroup in both game systems due to unique kits. 

I really would love if GW releases a Dark Mechanicum Battle Group box as well. The Taghmata box is nice, but a lot of it can’t be used in a pure Dark Mechanicum list. Fingers crossed!

[Lord Marshal]

13 hours ago, Mandragola said:

However, they could easily have just given them fighters. The book mentions servitor-piloted avengers at one point and I’m sure I’ve heard of the Mechanicum using thunderbolts. Or they could have just designed one for them, or used the flappy 40K things. It’s a glaring gap and one they could have filled in multiple ways. 

 

For whatever reason, they don't seem to want cross-compatible units within the same game at this stage - at least when it comes to LI. Only Legiones get access to Termites, despite the rules and models being shared by both Solar Auxilia and Mechanicum at 28mm (hell, the webstore photos are of it in Mars-red colours). The only reasoning I can think of is some beancounter is worried Lil Timmy's brain will melt if he picks up a Lightning box and it doesn't say 'Mechanicum' on the sub-header. 

 

Edited October 20 by Lord Marshal

[sarabando]

i dont know if its been mentioned but in one of the art works there are some ursarex that look like a possible new plastic kit, vent on the top looks alot thinner than the resin ones

[SkimaskMohawk]

Pour one out for the argument of marine planes being light to be meant to shoot flying monsters like the vulturax. It was a nonsense take always, and It was always unlikely to to see monsters termed as flyers. 

 

What's up with two thanatars fitting into one triaros? That's like two leviathan s going into a Raider. 

[Indy Techwisp]

6 hours ago, SkimaskMohawk said:

What's up with two thanatars fitting into one triaros? That's like two leviathan s going into a Raider. 

I thought it was pretty obvious that the Thanatars simply fold themselves into a Sphere like a giant Bakugan and then you roll the 2 Thanatar Spheres into the transport.

[vadersson]

Like this!