New expansion: The Rise of the Dark Mechanicum

[apologist]

Previewed at the recent Warhammer Day, we've got another book on the way.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/pg4mfy13/warhammer-day-preview-more-machines-roll-out-from-the-martian-forges/

 

Key points:

• Theme is 'covering the Schism of Mars and more', including the Doom of Magma City
• Contains army lists for both the Mechanicum Taghmata and the Dark Mechanicum
• Also '[f]ormations for dedicated armies of Collegia Titanica and Questoris Familia.'

 

The Doom of Magma City was a bit setpiece siege that involved loyalist Mechanicum and Legio Tempestus versus Legio Mortis, millions of skitarii and 'corrupted machines from the Vault of Moravec' – so daemon engines, essentially.

 

New models – plural – are coming, with the first previewed being this Serperos (the 'Serperos ‘Overlord’ Heavy Stalker' to its mum).

 

From the scale, this looks to be on a 50mm base, so around the size of a large knight (see the Acastus below), or a small Titan.

 

 

The 50mm base idea is based on this Acastus Knight; the sculpted details on its base seem to tally up.

 

 

 

 

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A few points for discussion:

• I'd like to find out whether the Mechanicum Taghmata is a 'general' list, to which the Dark Mechanicum list is a supplement; they have so much overlap that it seems odd to duplicate things. 
• The Titan and Knight army lists are interesting – I would have thought that this had been covered in the Titandeath expansion, so it might be fun to speculate.
• Further units! I wonder whether the Dark Mechanicum units will be completely new concepts, or a mix of new and retro ideas. I'll love to see the old Slaaneshi Hell Knights and Scout Titans make a reappearance.

 

 

 

[DuskRaider]

This is something I was wondering in other threads as well: what will there be to differentiate the two factions of Mechanicum? It’s obvious that Dark Mech are getting unique units, but I would think that Ad Mech would get the same treatment. I just can’t think of anything that Ad Mech would have that Hereteks wouldn’t, considering most Forge Worlds had access to the same technology (perhaps different patterns), but the Hereteks had been working on uhh… heretical stuff in secret. Someone had commented perhaps Dark Mech will have limitations on the core units, or they will incur a point penalty with units costing slightly more. 
 

I am very interested to see how both Knight Households and Titan Legios are handled as formations / factions proper going forward. I had thought that perhaps their 30% limit would have been bumped up for Mechanicum forces, but from what GW had stated, it seems they’re going to have their own formations proper. Unless there’s a dramatic point reduction, it’s simply not viable for either force to take to the field against Astartes or Solar Auxilia… and it’s so weird to say that. 
 

My guess is that there will be point reductions for the two factions when taken on their own, perhaps with Armigers being unbound from their bigger brothers. Perhaps both will get a boost to their shields and treat them as they do in AT with a save. 
 

Here’s hoping we don’t have to wait too long to find out. 

[apologist]

On the Mechanicum, my guess is that Mechanicum Taghmata will be a general list, and the Dark Mechanicum act as additional options for players with the Traitor faction. If Loyalists get anything specific, I think it'll be limited to game material, rather than models – i.e. loyalist-only Formations. Background-wise, the only stuff that Loyalists would have widespread access to (i.e. not tied to one narrative instance in the galaxy, like Magma City's noosphere) would also be available to the Traitors.

 

Secondly, we've seen faction-specific Formations of Legend in the Tallarn expansion, and that's an easy way for GW to give Loyalist players something fun without having to tie themselves in knots to justify why the Traitors don't get it. Something like a siege defence force; or some tie-in to Tempestus, perhaps.

 

+++

On Titan Legios and Knight Households, it occurs to me that these might not be all-Titan/Knight forces necessarily (as that's largely covered in the Titandeath expansion), but instead be a set of rules for fielding them with supporting Mechanicus foot troops – a la old-school Tech-Guard, and stuff like the Titanicus novel.

 

This might be a way to give a soft upgrade to Titans, which feel a bit 'thin' in terms of game impact.

[Lord Marshal]

I'm definiely curious as to whether Collegia Titanica /Questoris Familia will be the 'Main Faction' you select or if it will fall under Mechanicum.

 

If it's the latter I could definitely see you having to take say... two Core for every Titan, but that's the cost of not being restricted by the Allies limit. Be very interesting to see if we get LI Secutarii models, particularly as they still show up a lot on the Martian Civil War photos. 

 

Knights I'm guessing will require you to run Armigers with them (like the 28mm Questoris Household does) and you'll be locked out of just spamming Household Support - which is incentive for them to drop a plastic kit with a bunch of the tiny fellas that I'm sure even AT-only diehards would appreciate. 

 

Edited October 7 by Lord Marshal

[Deschenus Maximus]

The only way I see Titans/Knights forces being viable is if you agree to a mirror match ahead of time. That would be fun but it's just not workable otherwise.

[DuskRaider]

Secutarii would be an interesting addition, and something that a Titan Legio would probably require to protect against massed assault. Whether they give us a specific model or just relegate Thralls to that role is another matter. I would hope we get new models, however. It would also open the door to an Imperator. 

[Lord Marshal]

 

The only way I see Titans/Knights forces being viable is if you agree to a mirror match ahead of time. That would be fun but it's just not workable otherwise.

 

I know when the rules started coming out there was a lot of "grrr how dare they not allow me to exclusively use my AT collection!" A lot of people took it as a cynical push to get them buying actual Legions Imperialis models, but just from a gameplay perspective it doesn't seem like it would be much fun to have a Pick-Up-Game where one person has a combined arms list and the other person has nothing but Titans, and the former just spends the game trying to run into melee with them while vehicles plink off Void Shields.

 

That's before getting into things like Objectives. 

 

Edited October 7 by Lord Marshal

[Deschenus Maximus]

 

 

but just from a gameplay perspective it doesn't seem like it would be much fun to have a Pick-Up-Game where one person has a combined arms list and the other person has nothing but Titans, and the former just spends the game trying to run into melee with them while vehicles plink off Void Shields.

 

That's before getting into things like Objectives. 

 

 

Honestly I'd feel bad for the Titan player, not the combined arms one. It would be an extremely difficult matchup unless the combined arms player is completely incompetent.

[Crablezworth]

 

 

Honestly I'd feel bad for the Titan player, not the combined arms one. It would be an extremely difficult matchup unless the combined arms player is completely incompetent.

 

I would feel bad for all of us playing the game, because entire titan or knight forces just don't work for this setting, combined arms barely works on account of infantry skewing everything as well.  

 

I think for li to be fixed or work better going forward it really needs to clamp down army construction instead of expand on it.  

 

I think there are upsides for limited formations for knights and titans but only if well considered. I think most players would like to see armigers unshackled from being tied at the hip to larger knights. 

 

Same time, I don't want more skew lists, I want incentives or structure that sees combined arms as the end result. I just don't really relish the idea of having to explain to a new player with his shiny entire knight household army why it won't be pleasant for either side to play with/against. 

 

Titans even more so "so i have uhhh 5 activations, how many do you have?" "19"   "this will totally function in alternating activation" 

Edited October 7 by Crablezworth

[Lord Marshal]

 

 

Honestly I'd feel bad for the Titan player, not the combined arms one. It would be an extremely difficult matchup unless the combined arms player is completely incompetent.

 

Oh I definitely wouldn't bet on the Titan player, more that I can't see either player having much of a fun time. 

[vadersson]

From how I read it, I think there are going to be mixed Titan or knight formations with specific ground units.  I am not sure what the ground units will be yet, but I expec them to be like HQ, 2 CORE, 1 Support, 1 battle Titan or so.  That way you can have potentially more titans or knights, but still have other units to keep reasonable activations and still be some combined arms.

 

Now what those other miniatures are, I have no idea.  I don’t know enough about the ground (and air I suppose) forces of Knight familiar or Titan Collegia are.

 

Either way, it am excited by all this.  Hopefully we get some rule updates too.  This would be an ideal time.

[Crablezworth]

 

From how I read it, I think there are going to be mixed Titan or knight formations with specific ground units.  I am not sure what the ground units will be yet, but I expec them to be like HQ, 2 CORE, 1 Support, 1 battle Titan or so.  That way you can have potentially more titans or knights, but still have other units to keep reasonable activations and still be some combined arms.

 

Now what those other miniatures are, I have no idea.  I don’t know enough about the ground (and air I suppose) forces of Knight familiar or Titan Collegia are.

 

Either way, it am excited by all this.  Hopefully we get some rule updates too.  This would be an ideal time.

 

I hope you're right and there is more a tax/combined arms approach, but I can't help but get the feeling they didn't put that much thought into what they'll be. Hope I'm wrong. 

[DuskRaider]

I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it again: Knight Houses should have the ability and rules to take the field by themselves. The various units are literally geared towards battling troops and armor and yet they do neither very well. It’s rather frustrating, as they don’t really fit into AT well without fielding Acastus which causes gripes because realistically, they’re the only Knight chassis’ that can reliably fell a Titan. On the flipside, they’re not very effective in Legions Imperialis either. Weapons that should pose a threat to armor and massed infantry just… really don’t, for the most part. 
 

I see no issue completely restructuring their point cost when fielded as a Formation proper when compared to Auxiliary Support (though they need major changes there as well). There are multiple tales of entire Houses taking to the field in the Heresy, I fail to see why this couldn’t or shouldn’t be possible in LI. Maybe it would still be a bit of an uphill battle against massed waves of infantry (due to their OP rules) or massed armor (which does make sense), but it would be more enjoyable if they stood a bit more of a chance than they currently do. 
 

Ultimately, they would probably need a complete redesign to their rules in order to be successful. Same goes for Titans. They’re way too expensive for the results they produce on the table and that’s a big problem if GW doesn’t make changes and just kinda… throws them into Formations in their current form. 

[Crablezworth]

On 10/8/2024 at 10:13 AM, DuskRaider said:

I’ve said it many times before and I’ll say it again: Knight Houses should have the ability and rules to take the field by themselves. The various units are literally geared towards battling troops and armor and yet they do neither very well. It’s rather frustrating, as they don’t really fit into AT well without fielding Acastus which causes gripes because realistically, they’re the only Knight chassis’ that can reliably fell a Titan. On the flipside, they’re not very effective in Legions Imperialis either. Weapons that should pose a threat to armor and massed infantry just… really don’t, for the most part. 
 

I see no issue completely restructuring their point cost when fielded as a Formation proper when compared to Auxiliary Support (though they need major changes there as well). There are multiple tales of entire Houses taking to the field in the Heresy, I fail to see why this couldn’t or shouldn’t be possible in LI. Maybe it would still be a bit of an uphill battle against massed waves of infantry (due to their OP rules) or massed armor (which does make sense), but it would be more enjoyable if they stood a bit more of a chance than they currently do. 
 

Ultimately, they would probably need a complete redesign to their rules in order to be successful. Same goes for Titans. They’re way too expensive for the results they produce on the table and that’s a big problem if GW doesn’t make changes and just kinda… throws them into Formations in their current form. 

 

I disagree, people are a gentleman's agreement now from trying an all knight force and it wouldn't be very effective and imo wouldn't be terribly fun for either side. 

 

All knight forces were terrible for 40k and 30k and I think they'd objective be bad for li, at least in terms of objective performance. But I also just think enshrining a skew mono unit army has been a terrible thing for knights in multiple games. A knight is cool, an army of them isn't imo. I could maybe see a knights only game where a handful skrirmish but hat's about the extent of it. They were just as out of place as their own force in titanicus. 

 

The all knight or titan forces just won't work in li imo, there's too much activation disparity on top of the fact that titan and knights get their butts kicked by hordes of cheap infantry. I think combined arms should be the main focus of the game, if they want to do more offshoots like titan death, thats infinitely more preferable than monkeying with the core game in terms of the 30%, its a miracle we even got that considering how totally unlimited army construction is. I want more structure not less, letting players field largely whatever they want really only sates gw's bottom line, but is so bad for the health of the game. 

[Interrogator Stobz]

I'd love to see Formations and Detachments structured a bit more, mostly to fix the activation problem that often occurs.

 

But, balance is even better than that.

They obviously haven't achieved balance in the unit capabilities. 

 

Trying to 'structure' armies to make it work is a poor mans bandage. One I'm happy to take failing a proper fix. 

All units should be able to compete based on their abilities and points cost. That is the real problem.

 

Now, how will Dark Mechanicum fit into this obvious power level problem?

Will they be another horde/MSU broken style, or will they have a bunch of these new and ridiculously cool bigger Knight sized units which can't compete?

 

[DuskRaider]

3 hours ago, Crablezworth said:

 

I disagree, people are a gentleman's agreement now from trying an all knight force and it wouldn't be very effective and imo wouldn't be terribly fun for either side. 

 

All knight forces were terrible for 40k and 30k and I think they'd objective be bad for li, at least in terms of objective performance. But I also just think enshrining a skew mono unit army has been a terrible thing for knights in multiple games. A knight is cool, an army of them isn't imo. I could maybe see a knights only game where a handful skrirmish but hat's about the extent of it. They were just as out of place as their own force in titanicus. 

 

The all knight or titan forces just won't work in li imo, there's too much activation disparity on top of the fact that titan and knights get their butts kicked by hordes of cheap infantry. I think combined arms should be the main focus of the game, if they want to do more offshoots like titan death, thats infinitely more preferable than monkeying with the core game in terms of the 30%, its a miracle we even got that considering how totally unlimited army construction is. I want more structure not less, letting players field largely whatever they want really only sates gw's bottom line, but is so bad for the health of the game. 

Yeah, this is definitely a subject where we don’t agree on. I never saw much of an issue with Knights in 30K / 40K, seeing as it’s a massive point investment in relatively little as far as units go and they’re not really great at capturing objectives. That being said, they can be a lot of fun to play / play against, and Knight vs Knight battles are always a blast IMO. 
 

I would say that they fit into LI more than AT, at least from a composition and armament perspective. I would argue that in their current form and point structure, an all-Knight game is nigh impossible. I do think that when they get their own Formation, however, it will include some kind of required Mechanicum support to bolster their activation numbers. Even then, their point system has to be dramatically reduced in order to field an actual force. 
 

I’ve tried to piece together a 3,000 point army of Knights via BattleScribe using their current point system and it’s… not good. Particularly when you factor in just how middling some of their weaponry is in its current state. Weapons like Gatling Cannons and Flamers should carve a path through infantry and armour, but they don’t. Knights like the Castigator and Acheron that should shine in LI are trash. This is squarely on the rules writers, as it’s the same issue in AT with the same exact weapons and Knights: they’re just all around trash. 

[Crablezworth]

2 hours ago, Interrogator Stobz said:

 

 

Trying to 'structure' armies to make it work is a poor mans bandage. One I'm happy to take failing a proper fix. 

All units should be able to compete based on their abilities and points cost. That is the real problem.

 

 

FOC's worked pretty well in 40k, it was formations that ruined 40k back in the day and for similar reasons, because many had no additional point cost/tax for free abilities, and look at the problem formations in li, pioneer company handing out infiltrate like its candy. 

 

As far as all units being able to compete on their abilities and point costs currently that's the problem, its too democratic, too stilted, where the food chain should solidly be going in one direction from titan to knight to super heavy to tank to walker to infantry, it sadly does no such thing, largely based on gw's insane hatred of hierarchies that make sense in a weird push towards the opposite end where lasguns can damage land raiders. If points remained the same but units lost abilities you'd pretty much have to limit infantry from charging anything other than other infantry. 

Edited October 9 by Crablezworth

[Lord Marshal]

Stalker Constructs for DarkMech, which will also have Adeptus Titanicus rules.

 

Perhaps unsurprisingly it confirms DarkMech will have access to the normal Taghmata units, but also infers that the new Titans and Knights Formations will fall under the (two?) Mechanicum Faction(s), at least from how I read it:
 

Quote

The Dark Mechanicum can also field regular Mechanicum Taghmata units, as well as Titans and Knights.

 

Edited Thursday at 12:27 PM by Lord Marshal

[Crablezworth]

Hope that's how it works with titans/knights falling under dark mechanicum/taghmata lists, it would also hint at more of a combined arms approach than the concern that titans and knights could wholesale be their own factions/armies. 

 

 

 

Found this on facebook, originally posted by edd ralph, looks like an approximate size estimate for the new models:

Edited Thursday at 07:04 PM by Crablezworth

[DuskRaider]

That’s Apologist, he posted that picture in the News & Rumors thread as well, I believe. 

I’m curious to see how and where these fit into AT, let alone LI. They’re obviously closer to the size of Knights than they are Titans and it’ll be interesting to see where they fit into that hierarchy. They look weaker than a Knight, while being much faster. I would assume they’ll have Repair Protocols as well akin to the Mechanicum Knights as well. As I mentioned in the N&R thread, I’m also wondering how they intend on releasing the AT rules considering a faction is more than just Terminals. Will we see these in the LI book, are we going to see a new AT book, or are we just going to be expected to run with it?

 

[Interrogator Stobz]

Probably just to run with it.

There might be a tiny bit of AT rules in the book, but I'm not expecting much.

I too reckon they will function like Knights and Armigers, but with esoteric weapons, etc.

[Crablezworth]

Yeah assuming they're using all the knight rules in AT, the terminals cover pretty much everything unless they've added more mechanics. 

15 hours ago, DuskRaider said:

That’s Apologist, he posted that picture in the News & Rumors thread as well, I believe. 
 

 

 

lol, small world 

[Deschenus Maximus]

This discussion gave me an idea: what if, going forward, GW used the LI books as the medium through which new material for Titanicus (and Aeronautica, while we're at it) was released? Would allow them to have periodic rules influx for AT/AI without needing to put together a whole ass new book.

[DuskRaider]

I can’t imagine they’d function like Knights, though they are similar in size. It sounds like they can operate independently, but when grouped together they’re more efficient (faster, deadlier, etc.) unlike Knights, who have no choice but to group together in Banners and Lances. 
 

I think it would be interesting to give them the option to converge and bolster their respective strength or split off to tackle multiple objectives (or adversaries) and then come back together around the Noosphere Controller. It would lend to a more tactical approach on the tabletop and while they may be weaker than Knights individually, they make up for it with speed and more independence, which is one of the Knights’ biggest weaknesses. 
 

I would also be curious if the smaller Constructs are present in AT as well. I would assume no, but I suppose you never know. I look forward to these being released and hopefully it happens sooner than later. 

Edited Friday at 04:23 PM by DuskRaider

[Marshal Rohr]

This is pretty much a guarantee Secutarii will be coming which begs the question, what else would they put on that sprue? The other options are all covered in the other Mechanicum boxes. It will be an interesting preview of what’s coming down the pipe. 
 

In the meantime it’ll be a blast to recreate the old Legio Gryphonicus Lore of their inducted Cybernetica and the Secutarii they were known for fighting with. 

Edited 8 hours ago by Marshal Rohr