A slightly horrific thought re: Space Marine Scouts

[Evil Eye]

As we all know, Space Marine creation is not a pleasant process, taking boys of no older than 14 and cutting them apart and reassembling them, physically and mentally, into living instruments of death. However, a particularly unpleasant thought occurred to me, which I'm hoping I got wrong.

 

Scouts aren't fully fledged Space Marines, as they haven't gotten their black carapace just yet, which they only receive upon promotion to Battle-Brother. And whilst presumably the implantation of the other organs allows the carapace to be implanted later, Scouts are still sent into battle pretty freshly. Which means Scouts are sent to war as effectively young teenagers.

 

So those lightly-armoured skirmishers we've been using as expendable objective-grabbers for years? Child (super) soldiers. Nice to think about!

[Brother Tyler]

It's a story as old as time.

 

 

The Whiteshields of the Astra Militarum are similar (minus the surgery, psycho-conditioning, hypnotherapy, etc.).

[Emperor Ming]

Grimdark

[Indy Techwisp]

To be technical about it, the same goes for any "fresh" Intercessors you're using, since the Black Carapace needs to be implemented before the Scout is 16-17.

[SvenIronhand]

1 hour ago, Brother Tyler said:

It's a story as old as time.

 

C.F. Fianna

[Arikel]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

To be technical about it, the same goes for any "fresh" Intercessors you're using, since the Black Carapace needs to be implemented before the Scout is 16-17.

Is this new? While undoubtedly the process is most successfull when started young  (10-14 years old), originally SM recruits were fully mature warriors or even prisoners in older fluff if I recall correctly. From what I understood, the practice of recruiting very young only started after the imperium had already been established for some millennia, as the loss of technology and medical knowledge needed for the process to be successful diminished to where it was becoming risky to gamble geneseed on older recruits.

 

More on topic, it wouldn’t be 40k without child soldiers would it now? Some chapters recruits, like the ones from Ultramar, are high social status pampered youths prepared from birth to be the family’s next tithe to their overlords, but many chapters draw directly from feral worlds, hive ganger juvies or just randomly from whatever planet a spacebound chapter might be visiting. Many of these recruits would already have very hard lives and being recruited might almost seem a blessing at that point, compared to their old lives.  
 

The imperium is objectively a terrible place to live in to anyone who takes a moment to even casually consider the fluff we are presented with. It is indeed terrifying that child soldiers would be a normal thing anywhere, but 40K essentially showcases the worst aspects of human nature taken to their extremes. It’s normal to shudder or be revolted by what the Imperium views as standard practice.

[Lord_Ikka]

3 hours ago, Arikel said:

Is this new? While undoubtedly the process is most successfull when started young  (10-14 years old), originally SM recruits were fully mature warriors or even prisoners in older fluff if I recall correctly. From what I understood, the practice of recruiting very young only started after the imperium had already been established for some millennia, as the loss of technology and medical knowledge needed for the process to be successful diminished to where it was becoming risky to gamble geneseed on older recruits.

Depends- both Russ and the Lion had full-grown warriors turned into Astartes, but quite a few of them died. If the warrior was too old, you got what happened to Kor Phaeron and Luther, which is a process that makes them more than human but less than Astartes but is easier on the body and able to be done to those older. Even in the Heresy though, we see teenagers as the majority of recruits (such as the DA on Caliban recruiting Zahariel at about the age of 11). So in my view the optimal recruitment has always been aimed at pre-teen/teen age despite being able to do older age recruits in the earlier portion of the Imperium

[Wormwoods]

It's child soldiers all the way down, I'm afraid. 

[AutumnEffect]

I always assumed Scouts to be deployed after their Progenoid glands are implanted which can be between 16 and 18.

 

In the United Kingdom you can enlist at 16 with parental permission.
In the United States you can enlist at 17 with a parental permission.
In Canada, you can join the reserve component of the Canadian Forces at age 16 with parental permission.

 

It's not really all that different from reality, whatever your thoughts on it.
I don't think that a Space Marine Chapter, having invested a serious amount of resources into the creation of a prospective new Battle Brother, which are already a rarity, would deploy them much younger or before they 'grew into' their enhancements to at least such a point as they would be an aid to combat rather than a hinderance. 
The Scouts have to be advanced/old enough to not slow down their super-human seniors.

Edited October 10 by AutumnEffect

[apologist]

I wrote an essay around the question of 'How old is a Space Marine', which deals with how a Chapter functions – if you'd like to read it, you can find part I here and part II here. The conclusion was that in a typical Chapter:

• There are between twenty and fifty Neophytes between ten and fourteen years old, who are not part of the 1,000 marine limit
• The Scouts of the Tenth company are between twelve and twenty-one years old
• A Battle Brother in a Reserve Company will be between eighteen and fifty-five years old
• A Battle Brother in a Battle Company will be between thirty-four and eighty-one years old, with members exceptionally reaching one-hundred-and-fifty years or more
• A Veteran of the First Company will be between sixty-five and two-hundred-and-thirty-five years old, with members exceptionally reaching three-hundred years old
• An Officer will be between thirty-five and three-hundred years old.

 

In any case, pretty horrible!

 

Here's a picture of the current implantation process.

 

...and a comparison picture of the original; which handily includes the age range for implantation. The three additional 'new' organs, I believe, are fitted post-Black Carapace, but I'm not sure how that would affect things. 

 

 

Edited October 10 by apologist

[The Unseen]

You'd probably have to put the sinew coils in after the marine is done growing, so pretty late in the process, but probably before the carapace. No reason to install something like that then have to cut it apart again if you didn't have to. The other 2 probably don't matter nearly as much; though if you want Primaris being bigger to make sense, the Magnificant would have to be implanted alongside the early organs that deal with the changes to the marines skeletal and musculature systems, as growing a full size marine, then making him go through another round of growth spurts seems... not ideal.
So Magnificant early, probably same time as the bone and muscle implant, Sinew's late but before Black Carapace for ease of surgery, and the Furnace probably goes in near the end, as it doesn't do much before the marine actually hits combat.

Or you could be a Son of Sanguinius and get them all in under a year, and just come out perfect. (or perfect AND crazy, but hey)

[N1SB]

13 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

So those lightly-armoured skirmishers we've been using as expendable objective-grabbers for years? Child (super) soldiers. Nice to think about!

 

1st things 1st, Brother Eye, you continue to motivate me, specifically for my Project: Warchild where I have the classic, shorter, "younger" Scouts lead by the modern, taller "grown up" ones.  Gonna ask my friend Timperial Guard to 3D print me some children's head swaps.

 

Now to make my point...

 

 

+++ I've been thinking it's By Design +++

 

 

All credit (or blame) to our B&C Brothers Sothalor, Xenith and The Scorpion for starting me on this train of thought.

 

Reading the Horus Heresy novels, the backstory for many Space Marine Legionnaires, especially Terrans, goes "I was the son of a warrior king the Emperor conquered to form the Imperium, and spared me so now I'm a Marine."  Like wards.  I used to think it was just the Emperor's Children, but there were more.

 

To form the Imperium...any empire...you don't just kill any preceding king, you gotta wipe out the dynasty.

 

You don't have to execute their sons, you can just castrate them...as with the Marine process (how convenient).

 

It's how the Emperor validated his claim to power: I conquered you, but I spared your children, they serve me now.

 

Making them Legionnaires fulfills that requirement, ticks the box!  However, if they should die early...well...

 

...the dynastic line is ended.  Oh, how terrible.  Funny how that worked out, in the end.  Therefore...

 

13 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

However, a particularly unpleasant thought occurred to me, which I'm hoping I got wrong.

 

No, Brother Eye.  You're not wrong.  You don't have to hope, don't take that 1st step towards disappointment.

 

You've been doing the Emperor's Will this whole time.

Edited October 10 by N1SB

[Gamiel]

12 hours ago, Brother Tyler said:

It's a story as old as time.

 

 

The Whiteshields of the Astra Militarum are similar (minus the surgery, psycho-conditioning, hypnotherapy, etc.).

And many of the gangers on Necromunda are in their teens.

[SvenIronhand]

RE: the Fianna comparison and the similarities with Space Marines Scouts.

Young people cause trouble and have always caused (somewhat violent, either physically or emotionally) trouble since settled civilization's inception, and the old always seek to restrain it. The Fianna are one example, little better than raiders, murderers, and thieves by our modern Christian standards, but also beloved and celebrated by their post-Roman, early medieval Irish contemporaries. Sétanta was held to be a fénnid, and his youthful models more than likely were. Maturity finally came for Sétanta when he hurled a ball through the Cu of Culain, that passed its name onto him, along with a sense of duty, of belonging and responsibility.

Yet, paradoxically, the old love this impulsivity and thoughtless love of action or reaction in the young.

To quote the Judge from Blood Meridian:
 

Quote

 

Judge Holden: All other trades are contained in that of war.

Another, whose name is not particularly illustrative at this moment: Is that why war endures?

Judge Holden: No. It endures because young men love it and old men love it in them. Those that fought, those that did not.

 

 

The old love that chaos, that youthful spark, that wild flame that threatens to consume. In vain, they struggle to chain it, but the wise amongst them recognize its value if channeled correctly. As it was, so will it be. Until the human species dies, or is so changed as to have effectively died. 

The writers of 40k understood this from the conception of Scouts in 2nd edition, on some level. The Scouts are gangers, they are young landless warriors, they are unlucky laborers, they are thieves, and they are Bloodied Claws. Society's refuse or despised, but also beloved and celebrated. They are jokesters in the face of death, they laugh at blood and gore, they sing of murder, and they cry for the courageous fallen. To some extent, they even feel fear of death without purpose. They are, as of yet, unformed and uncynical. 

[grailkeeper]

Hormones amongst 14 year old boys drive them nuts. Imagine what the bullying is like when they're super hormones designed to induce hyper aggression. I'd say Space Marines would tend to recruit jocks more than kids susceptible to bullys,  but its not like these teens have any normal responsible adults around telling them to knock it off. 

Edited October 10 by grailkeeper

[Marshal Reinhard]

Im so tired of the marines are child soldiers tripe

[Brother Tyler]

18 minutes ago, Marshal Reinhard said:

Im so tired of the marines are child soldiers tripe

 

Yes, the notion that the Adeptus Astartes as a whole are child soldiers is categorically incorrect. However, the fact that Adeptus Astartes aspirants are recruited as children is categorically correct (minus those that were inducted as adults during the Great Crusade, but that didn't turn out so well). The Space Marine Scouts*, meanwhile, tend to be neophytes and would fall into the category of child soldiers according to our modern definition, but only because they are in their late teens. Only a small percentage of males are physiologically compatible with the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed. Some Chapters screen for this as part of their recruitment process (e.g., the Imperial Fists, as described in the novel Space Marine by Ian Watson) while (many?) others simply let the modification process weed out those who are incapable of accepting the transhuman organs and unthinkably harsh methods of the Adeptus Astartes. Since Space Marine Scouts are at the very end stage of the neophyte process, tending to be in their late teens, while their actual ages would fit our modern notion of "children," their training and physical prowess mean that they far exceed anything remotely resembling children. In fact, natural humans in their prime (say, mid- to late twenties) are far outclassed by these, the weakest of the Adeptus Astartes.

 

The point of this topic, however, is that we as players tend to use Space Marine Scouts in a way that runs contrary to how the Adeptus Astartes would really use them [if the nightmarish science fantasy future portrayed in the setting were real, that is]. The Space Marine Scouts are literally the future of their respective Chapters and they would not be used as expendable cannon fodder. Of all the resources that the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes would (and should) husband, their Scouts would be at or very near the top of that list (gene-seed stores being the other vital resource).

 

The counter to all of this is that the Adeptus Astartes are extreme in their training methodologies, and are inclined to expose all members to harsh regimens and danger. To the Adeptus Astartes, victory requires sacrifice, and weeding out the less fit (even when they are the cream of the crop) is essential to ensuring the elite nature of the Chapters. That's part of the irony of the grimdark setting. We as players focus on the immediate needs of the game (i.e., we're tactical) whereas real military leaders look to the end-state and husbanding the resources necessary to achieve their strategic objectives. Sacrificing our Space Marine Scouts gives us our [Pyrrhic] victories.

 

 

 

* The exceptions to this being the Scout Sergeants and those times when experienced battle-brothers perform a Scout role, such as in the Space Wolves Chapter.

[Marshal Reinhard]

Meanwhile I collect a chapter where every neophyte is mentored personally by a full battle brother, who has sole jurisdiction of when said neophyte is worthy of being brought up as a full initiate. It may take years or even decades until they deem them worthy. A drop in the ocean perhaps, but a reason why even "neophytes are child soldiers" rings somewhat hollow in my ears.

 

Not to detract from your lengthy reply however.

[sbarnby71]

You know they are made of plastic, or sometimes resin?

[Brother Tyler]

7 hours ago, sbarnby71 said:

You know they are made of plastic, or sometimes resin?

 

Most of mine are metal, and they're no longer teenagers.

[Galron]

Really depends on the chapter though. Some chapters recruit older recruits because they flat out dont care about the failure rates of older conversions. Carcharodons say hi!

[Dark Shepherd]

Some 14 year olds have paper rounds, some have bolter rounds

[Marshal Mittens]

Black Templars and Space Wolves recruit older too i believe?

[Arikel]

4 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Black Templars and Space Wolves recruit older too i believe?

If they didn’t there are some very disturbing tales of I think lucas the trickster in the 5th ed codex.

[redmapa]

7 hours ago, Marshal Mittens said:

Black Templars and Space Wolves recruit older too i believe?

 

That has never been specified for BT at least, Gerhart looks to be a grown man in Damnation Crusade which is where this idea comes from but he could easily be an outlier, AFAIK both recruit from teenagers like the rest of the Chapters.