What is Even the Story in 10th Edition (aka Why Can't BL Do Better?)

[caladancid]

I just finished re-reading Godblight. I know there are some mixed feelings about it, but it reminded me of all the storylines that have gone absolutely nowhere.

 

For a minute I thought we were doing things. Dante was striding into Nihilus, Guilliman was doing his stuff that apparently involved some big plan, The LION CAME BACK. People found out about Imperium Secondus. Psykers were springing up, the Emperor was stirring. Abaddon had sent one of his trusted confidants to Terra. Etc. Etc.

 

Stretching back years we had the Salamanders novels leading to new pysker powers, Chris Wraight's SW books doing the same, both of which amounted to nothing in the end.

 

And then we got......the ongoing mega disappointment of Dawn of Fire, and a whole bunch of one-off novels that have done nothing.

 

Maybe all of this is contained in the 40 or so pages of lore in each 10th edition codex, but shouldn't BL be doing something? Anything? 

 

BL needs a total rehaul. Get people in who can run that ship. I may have thought Laurie Goulding was abrasive, but apparently, he at least could run the place. It does not appear as though story, innovation, expansion, or quality is high on the list of priorities when it comes to editing or writing over the past several years. Thats harsh I know, but how else can you describe the squandering of what many of us would call the world's greatest IP?

[Felix Antipodes]

While I agree with you overall, I feel that BL is sort of hamstrung by the main studio being the leaders of the storyline.  BL rarely put up bleeding edge storylines.  Their role is to provide stories that support the setting, not lead the dialogue.  Using the return of the Lion as an example, BL releases a novel supporting his return in the game.  Now they are (probably) waiting to see what the studio is planning to do with him before commissioning a new one.

Having said that, there are plenty of stories that could be commissioned that could follow those story beats you mentioned that wouldn’t step on the toes of the main studio - they did announce greater liaison between BL and GW at one point, didn’t they?

[caladancid]

What you are saying isn't wrong, but at one point they were doing much better than they are now. I am not asking for them to lead anything. I can get the start of the story from the rulebooks. 

[Silas7]

Why is the Dawn of Fire series a disappointment? *glances nervously at five novels collecting dust*

Also why does BL have to wait for the main branch do something with the Lion? He's got his model, what more can they do?

[Roomsky]

Can't personally agree. The only thing that dampens my Black Library excitement lately is that some of my favourite authors have slowed down some. The closest to bleeding edge for plot I can think of that I'm really stoked for is Watchers of the Throne 3 and, hopefully, Horusian Wars 3 some day.

 

Black Legion 3, Emperor's Spears 2, Pandaemonium, Interceptor City, more Gaunt's Ghosts, more Von Shard? All set in the distant past or light-years away from any major events. Good books can come out of codex tie-ins, for sure, but they're generally a yoke around their authors' necks. I've always thought the best Black Library works have been an author carving out their own little corner of the setting. 

 

I also think the plot developments in Godblight actively made that book terrible, so I'm happy with scattershot novels! 

[Felix Antipodes]

1 hour ago, caladancid said:

What you are saying isn't wrong, but at one point they were doing much better than they are now. I am not asking for them to lead anything. I can get the start of the story from the rulebooks. 

I agree that they did better in the past.  I personally put that down to stronger leadership from editorial in the Gascoigne and Goulding eras.  Could be wildly wrong though, as I have no more insight on the internal structure of BL than the next reader.

I’m not looking for BL to lead either.  I’ve enjoyed a lot of their recent output. As @Roomsky has pointed out there are a lot of good books/series (hopefully) coming out eventually.  IMHO all the series mentioned worked because they either filled in blanks in the overall storyline like Watchers of the Throne or were set in out of the way corners (Emperor’s Spears) or times past (Gaunt’s Ghosts).

Possibly why people keep calling for a Scouring or Badab War series…

 

Edited Monday at 05:20 AM by Felix Antipodes

[Nagashsnee]

I have said it before but here goes once more.

 

8th edition and the formation of the rift was handled very very very poorly and it to this day stops allot of the new lore having direction and the emotional impact it should have. 

 

Firstly lets address the elephant in the room, GW (and from now on this includes BL) is terrified of killing off characters. In the stuck at 1 min to midnight old lore this was not a huge problem. As you could have a very dangerous universe and lore and not have anyone die.  But post right (really fall of cadia onwards) this leads to issues. It leads to in part to making 40k much more star wars like as you have a set of named characters who  zip around (more on this latter) and get in hijinks with no real risk.  GW then DOUBLED DOWN on this by making the rubicon primaris be the greatest cheat death code of all time. And double down AGAIN  by time after time setting up 'epic' duels/story lines that mean nothing.Ragnar vs Ghaz? No issues, Calgar vs Abby? Its A ok. Time and again 40k becomes more and more saturday morning cartoon as they meet, they monologue, they fight and they go away till next episode.  

 

Secondly you have the time skip mess. From a story standpoint you went 200 ahead, only to rewind, only to kind go ahead again. Most people i talk to honestly have no idea what the 'present' is in 40k anymore, and not in a fun in universe way, but a no idea what happens when story wise way. This also made problem 1 way way worse. As suddenly all this 100-200 year old marine special characters all suddenly live thru the worse 100-200 years of imperial warfare since the heresy...and no one actually suffers for it. Now it would be silly enough for marines. But then you look at everybody else and with very few exemptions it turns out being a named character in 40k is one of the safest professions around. They then double down here again, by making the few exemption be cop outs (Yarrick dies or maybe not, Creed is taken hostage and can come back whenever, etc). 

 

Thirdly they have made the universe feel ever smaller, as they points 1 and 2 combine, you have large amounts of time go by with the same 20-30 people pretty much doing anything of import and always be at the right place at the right time and of course walking away to get to the next place. But again this was for the largest time the opposite of what 40k told us happens. Travel is hard, it is time consuming, the Imperium is BIG and vast, no one person can truly hope to time after time get to every single narrative event, fight in all the key battles, do all the key things.  But due to the ever greater focus GW places on named characters (some worse then others) it clashes with the image the post rift 40k tried to build. This is especially bad in the dark Imperium, where you have say the Lion pop up, Dante go and find him, and then they go fight Angron before separating (everyone was ok dont worry) again. But Dante is also suppose to be leading the Entire Dark Imperium, he is regent, he has a capital, this journey alone should take years maybe even decades. It would be insanely risky even if we assume he went from his origin point, straight to the lion, and then straight to Angron, and then straight home (that's  allot of Dark Imperium navigating right there).

 

Which bring me to the final point. They utterly utterly UTTERLY  failed to set the new stage. Following cadias fall and the rift they immediately launched Primaris and the finished/ongoing indomitus crusade to retake...what? We never got to experience the fall of the dark imperium, we never got to experience the chaos and anarchy of the light side imperium following the fall of cadia. We never really got to see what happened, what fell, what was lost.  We keep being told things but we are almost NEVER SHOWN. Indomitus was a crusade to retake nothing of value because nothing of value was ever really lost. Per point 1 GW is terrified of loss, so no real key planets, characters or items were ever lost. Sure lots of places we never heard of and some B-C level named stuff got killed off screen but who honestly cares? They can make up new planets to lose for ever it wont matter to anyone.  Then you have  point 2 the original time skip mean that indomitus is trying to reclaim 200 -100ish years of loses but we never experiences any loses so instead of reclamation indomitus instead emotionally comes of as imperial conquest.  Combining with point 3 of people zipping around fighting the good fight, taking back one inch of ground at a time, Dante might be stuck in the cracked, broken, overun dark imperium but he will still meet both primarchs and Cawl bff and be in the middle of the ongoing mega narative, same as anyone else, because it turns out the dark imperium only ever cracked, broken and overun when you want to hype a event/battle.  And it all comes off as business as usual, cadia may have fallen and the universe may have cracked. But it still Imperial fleets, full of marines, ig, sisters and space marine doing more or less what they use to do. Only instead of defending Armagedon they are...defending Armaged... ok bad example. 

 

10th edition is saddled with 8th editions sins, and 9th editions desperate attempts to fix it. Much like Dawn of Fire in GW haste to always PUSH MORE SPACE MARINES, they utterly failed to set the stage for the marines to fight in. What 8th needed was a period covering the Imperial LOSSES. We need narrative and campaign books detailing the lost sectors of the Imperium. Source books looking at the last hold out on the dark side of the rift, and the new chaos/xenos realms being set up, created on both sides. We needed them to take out some of the older named characters out to pasture and raise the ante by actually having special characters meet the heroic deaths 40k keeps telling us happen all the time.  Have yarick meets his death, have creed fall with cadia, take some of the B marine characters and have them go down doing what they were made to do, defend the Imperium. BL should have had a field day with this stuff. Books like Spears of the Emperor show us what we needed, setting up new exciting sandboxes for players to spend the next decade playing in. 

 

10th edition story is hostage to GW inability to actually progress a story without simply resetting everything at the end of the same story. Its tied down by the mixed and confusing legacy of the lore of the indomitus crusade. And its trapped by the main studio not setting up the new ages non marine factions. For better or worse BL and GW are tied together narratively this has become in my view for 40k when dealing with 'the main story' just as much a hindrance as a blessing. Changing leadership at BL wont help, as they can do is help push more (and i hope they do as i love these) no weight stories. Things like Spears of the Emperor which as self contained but dont go anywhere near the big stuff or named characters. 

 

 But since we are talking about 10ths issues, look at 9th and the Nexus, the gaming side took so long to advanced the plot that EVEN IF bl was ready it would be years between the edition dropping and any actual story progression. What BL needs to do is start doing narrative source books again that can enhance and enriching each edition overall narrative without ever stepping on toes.  But again unless the core issues of actually finishing story lines, not being afraid to kill some people of (nothing crazy, one special character a year, just to add a element of chance), and have firm planning BEFORE hand on story lines, there is nothing BL can really do for the main story.

Edited Monday at 05:48 AM by Nagashsnee

[Gamiel]

5 hours ago, caladancid said:

Maybe all of this is contained in the 40 or so pages of lore in each 10th edition codex, but shouldn't BL be doing something? Anything? 

When did they do that before?  Most of BL's output in the past as I recall had nothing to do with the story that's presented in the latest core book or codexes.

[Nagashsnee]

1 hour ago, Gamiel said:

When did they do that before?  Most of BL's output in the past as I recall had nothing to do with the story that's presented in the latest core book or codexes.

Directly about the campaign book events, probably 1 per major event. However ALLOT of BL books happen in the periphery of campaign events.  So things like Wraiths custodes books or Dantes book 2 & 3. Then you have the books right before or after the campaigns like Lion Son of the Forest or the Angron book.  Likewise codexes have inpspired plenty of books, like the Emperors Gift being about the Grey Knights vs Angron, or Mortarions Heart trying to fix the Codex. 

 

If the campaign or codex have a John and Bob fought Gary story, you can bet if you take a picture of the fight and zoom in the fringes you will see a  BL book taking place .  

 

Heck Chris Wraiths entire inquisitor terra trilogy is literally a single rulebook/codex blurb brought to life. 

Edited Monday at 07:10 AM by Nagashsnee

[Felix Antipodes]

It would be nice if they stopped using IG regiments from worlds lost across the great rift, or at least show them having resupply issues.  I know there are a LOT of Cadians out there who survived, and to be fair they have mentioned their logistical issues several times - but they aren’t the only world lost.  Some of their biggest troop factories like Mordian, Valhalla and Attila are now in the Dark Imperium.  In the latest Dawn of Fire there is a Mordian regiment featured, but not one of them ponders on the fate of their homeworld (so far - I’m only halfway through it).

As Brother @Nagashsnee points out, they don’t appear to have thought out the big picture and its consequences.  But that is a GW issue and out of BL’s hands.

[Gamiel]

1 hour ago, Nagashsnee said:

Heck Chris Wraiths entire inquisitor terra trilogy is literally a single rulebook/codex blurb brought to life. 

When was that blurb first mentioned? Wondering since it took Inquisitor Covenant 16 years from first presentation in the Inquisitor game to there being a story about him.

[Nagashsnee]

22 minutes ago, Gamiel said:

When was that blurb first mentioned? Wondering since it took Inquisitor Covenant 16 years from first presentation in the Inquisitor game to there being a story about him.

 

The throne breaking down is old stuff but 

Spoiler

the mechanicus various 'plans' to fix it are probably closer to 7th ed mech codex. But i would need to check when home. 

 

[caladancid]

8 hours ago, Roomsky said:

Can't personally agree. The only thing that dampens my Black Library excitement lately is that some of my favourite authors have slowed down some. The closest to bleeding edge for plot I can think of that I'm really stoked for is Watchers of the Throne 3 and, hopefully, Horusian Wars 3 some day.

 

Black Legion 3, Emperor's Spears 2, Pandaemonium, Interceptor City, more Gaunt's Ghosts, more Von Shard? All set in the distant past or light-years away from any major events. Good books can come out of codex tie-ins, for sure, but they're generally a yoke around their authors' necks. I've always thought the best Black Library works have been an author carving out their own little corner of the setting. 

 

I also think the plot developments in Godblight actively made that book terrible, so I'm happy with scattershot novels! 

 

You have me second guessing what I've read because its been such a long time- but it seems like Black Legion 3 and Pandaemonium will be about huge events that would or could define the narrative. I don't want to spoil Pandaemonium but....that seems awfully huge. And Black Legion 3 is one hundred percent the sort of loose plotline I am talking about where it would have been much better resolved closer to Abaddon coming back.

 

Do you really think that John French wouldn't write Horusian Wars 3 (that cliffhanger was brutal) if BL commissioned it? Thats exactly my point.

 

And I think the whole codex thing is getting off-track. It is fine for the story to start in the codexes or main rulebook, but then I would expect BL to contribute. They know how to do it, they did it when AoS needed backstory. And that worked out pretty well for Gav Thorpe who won a Gemmell Award for his contribution.

[cheywood]

38 minutes ago, caladancid said:

 

You have me second guessing what I've read because its been such a long time- but it seems like Black Legion 3 and Pandaemonium will be about huge events that would or could define the narrative. I don't want to spoil Pandaemonium but....that seems awfully huge. And Black Legion 3 is one hundred percent the sort of loose plotline I am talking about where it would have been much better resolved closer to Abaddon coming back.

 

Isn’t Black Legion 3 supposed to be the story of

Abaddon acquiring Drach’nyen during the first black crusade

? I don’t think that’s going to be a huge event. Even Pandaemonium isn’t going to define the narrative of the setting at large. Way more people need to read the novels for that to happen.

 

[caladancid]

1 hour ago, cheywood said:

Isn’t Black Legion 3 supposed to be the story of

  Reveal hidden contents

Abaddon acquiring Drach’nyen during the first black crusade

? I don’t think that’s going to be a huge event. Even Pandaemonium isn’t going to define the narrative of the setting at large. Way more people need to read the novels for that to happen.

 

 

It is a bit strange to base the impact of events on the setting on readership levels. If that was the case, then not many BL books are doing much.

 

[cheywood]

1 hour ago, caladancid said:

 

It is a bit strange to base the impact of events on the setting on readership levels. If that was the case, then not many BL books are doing much.

 

What’s strange about it? As I understand it Games Workshop absolutely uses engagement/readership levels when it decides how to deliver narrative content. That’s why BL will always remain on the sideline, filling in gaps and providing novelizations of codex events. Not enough people read the novels for them to be used as the driving force behind 40k’s story. Even back when the great rift was new the authors were mostly expanding threads they already had running, or providing glimpses into a broader universe as defined by the codexes and whatnot. There’s never been a wholesale commitment to BL being a driving force behind 40k’s narrative expansion in my opinion.

 

edit: that said I agree this year is quite disappointing, but I don’t think that reflects much other than a lack of my favorite authors having new work. Already stuff like Dominion Genesis and Above and Beyond have me reinvigorated. Once Interceptor City hits I’ll be quite content I expect.

Edited Monday at 04:27 PM by cheywood

[Roomsky]

3 hours ago, caladancid said:

 

You have me second guessing what I've read because its been such a long time- but it seems like Black Legion 3 and Pandaemonium will be about huge events that would or could define the narrative. I don't want to spoil Pandaemonium but....that seems awfully huge. And Black Legion 3 is one hundred percent the sort of loose plotline I am talking about where it would have been much better resolved closer to Abaddon coming back.

 

Do you really think that John French wouldn't write Horusian Wars 3 (that cliffhanger was brutal) if BL commissioned it? Thats exactly my point.

 

Unless the whole premise has changed, I believe Black Legion 3 is about the first Black Crusade. It doesn't really fit into the idea of "things happening now" as you described it in the OP. Pandaemonium's importance is based on the King in Yellow, but considering the book is set quite a while before the Fall of Cadia, I have a hard time believing it will have important ramifications in the current setting. Abnett did say he needed to work closely with the IP overlords to write Pandaemonium, but that could just as much be because he wants to take a post-Heresy mystery and solve it.

 

BL's editorial and output lately has been even sloppier than usual, I won't disagree. I just don't think any low quality is related to "plot advancement" or lack thereof.

[DarkChaplain]

12 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

It would be nice if they stopped using IG regiments from worlds lost across the great rift, or at least show them having resupply issues.  I know there are a LOT of Cadians out there who survived, and to be fair they have mentioned their logistical issues several times - but they aren’t the only world lost.  Some of their biggest troop factories like Mordian, Valhalla and Attila are now in the Dark Imperium.  In the latest Dawn of Fire there is a Mordian regiment featured, but not one of them ponders on the fate of their homeworld (so far - I’m only halfway through it).

As Brother @Nagashsnee points out, they don’t appear to have thought out the big picture and its consequences.  But that is a GW issue and out of BL’s hands.

 

In The Gate of Bones, Dvorgin actually brings up that Mordian is beyond the rift, and he seems rather troubled by the possibility he'll never again see his love. He tries to keep it off his mind, though. The Mordian are very much aware of their home being lost to them, they just push it aside.

[byrd9999]

I much prefer 40k as a setting rather than a plot line. I want smaller scale scattered stories, rather than constant updates on all the big players.

 

Too much major narrative and it starts to feel like matchups from WWF wrestling.

[theSpirea]

On 10/14/2024 at 2:18 AM, caladancid said:

I just finished re-reading Godblight. I know there are some mixed feelings about it, but it reminded me of all the storylines that have gone absolutely nowhere.

I fully recommend the interview with Josh Reynolds I linked a few days ago in the 'Upcoming BL stuff 2024' thread. It explains a lot about why we get the books we do.

[Taliesin]

Have to agree with your general point ( which Valrak talks a lot about in video's as well) that the story in 10th edition seems to be go absolutely nowhere, or has been abandoned, its really weird how little narrative and attention there is. And from BL also there has been pretty much nothing, which makes it double weird.

[DarkChaplain]

Wasn't there this whole Arks of Omen thing going on that led to the Lion and Vashtorr and Caliban being brought back into realspace as a sort of super duper mcguffin for Chaos?

 

Yeah. That's a novel trilogy waiting to be written, but GW/BL have somehow moved far away from direct tie-in stuff in recent years. It's stupid, but it's James Workshop. We should be used to it by now

[Urauloth]

The Arks and the Rift War are the coolest things to happen post-rift, so I'd love to see them get some novel focus. Maybe after DoF wraps up? If we're still finding out about the first phase of the Indomitus Crusade, though, it might be a long wait.

[SvenIronhand]

On 10/14/2024 at 4:35 PM, byrd9999 said:

Too much major narrative and it starts to feel like matchups from WWF wrestling.

I guess we like different things, because the real-time storytelling of 'sports entertainment' wrestling fascinates me. The gimmicks, the enhancement talents, the stables, the wild and varied inspirations? It's a lot to take in and it can be silly, but it's got heart. People are working on it with their bodies and minds, working together. They probably can't replace Roman Reigns with a robot.

 

On 10/15/2024 at 7:44 AM, DarkChaplain said:

Yeah. That's a novel trilogy waiting to be written, but GW/BL have somehow moved far away from direct tie-in stuff in recent years. It's stupid, but it's James Workshop. We should be used to it by now

Funny thing is, people were complaining about direct tie-ins. Not you, necessarily, but I can recall the reputation of BL in the fanbase prior to 2018. 

 

On 10/15/2024 at 1:57 AM, theSpirea said:

I fully recommend the interview with Josh Reynolds I linked a few days ago in the 'Upcoming BL stuff 2024' thread. It explains a lot about why we get the books we do.

Will take a look. Lot of writing and reading to do, only so much time in the day. Busy, busy, busy!

[Krelious]

On 10/15/2024 at 8:44 AM, DarkChaplain said:

Wasn't there this whole Arks of Omen thing going on that led to the Lion and Vashtorr and Caliban being brought back into realspace as a sort of super duper mcguffin for Chaos?

 

Yeah. That's a novel trilogy waiting to be written, but GW/BL have somehow moved far away from direct tie-in stuff in recent years. It's stupid, but it's James Workshop. We should be used to it by now

I think its likely from a base level that they are waiting for their Primarchs to come back before they do anything kinda like their own avengers thing but also with a dark side as Fulgrim is coming back as well. I think maybe its an idea that from a certain springboard they are waiting to develop their new setting of a bunch of primarchs and other characters being around and that takes time and right now they are building the foundations which is why nothing seems to be happening because its likely that all the set pieces are interconnected and they might need say Fulgrim or the Khan to be around in order to get something from Godblight to progress for example.  Its also not like they can dump all this stuff on as at once as people need time in order to digest it and money to buy it. 

 

I'm sure that its likely Black Legion 3 will have some tie in stuff from The End and the Death.