What is Even the Story in 10th Edition (aka Why Can't BL Do Better?)

[Scribe]

On 10/13/2024 at 5:18 PM, caladancid said:

Thats harsh I know, but how else can you describe the squandering of what many of us would call the world's greatest IP?

 

Enslaving it to a metaplot, the roots of which (8th) stand in contrast to the tone of the setting?

 

I'm afraid thats the actual issue here. 8th, which spawned this metaplot narrative, was a mistake.

 

I'm sure I'll farm up some 'respectful' disagrees here, but I do believe 40K could be, should be, is! one of the world's great IPs, but its not shown with the Return of Rob and maybe hes empowered by the God Emperor.

 

Its shown with Soulhunter.

[Roomsky]

1 hour ago, SvenIronhand said:

I guess we like different things, because the real-time storytelling of 'sports entertainment' wrestling fascinates me. The gimmicks, the enhancement talents, the stables, the wild and varied inspirations? It's a lot to take in and it can be silly, but it's got heart. People are working on it with their bodies and minds, working together. They probably can't replace Roman Reigns with a robot.

 

Nothing wrong with pro wrestling-style melodrama! But 40k is such a different animal, I don't think the setting was designed with that in mind, beyond what you do with "your dudes" on the tabletop. The popularity of the Heresy seems to have given new fans the idea that 40k is about homoerotic superhuman melodrama first and tone and themes second. I think pro-wrestling is an apt metaphor, not to disparage it, but to point out how at odds it is with the setting's core.

 

Humanity's raging against the dying light is at odds with colourful superheroes constantly getting into duels that they both survive, over and over again.

 

Erebus is totally Vince McMahon, though.

[SvenIronhand]

Just now, Roomsky said:

Nothing wrong with pro wrestling-style melodrama! But 40k is such a different animal, I don't think the setting was designed with that in mind, beyond what you do with "your dudes" on the tabletop. The popularity of the Heresy seems to have given new fans the idea that 40k is about homoerotic superhuman melodrama first and tone and themes second. I think pro-wrestling is an apt metaphor, not to disparage it, but to point out how at odds it is with the setting's core.

 

Humanity's raging against the dying light is at odds with colourful superheroes constantly getting into duels that they both survive, over and over again.

 

Erebus is totally Vince McMahon, though.

On the contrary, homoerotic heroism (super or otherwise) is often doomed, in my opinion. It destroys itself because all things burn from the inside-out. To use a Tolkien example, Húrin Thalion's steadfastness would not be so impressive if he simply said 'AURË ENTULUVA" over and over. Nor Eowyn's heroic moment would be such an act of courage if she does not suffer in the aftermath. Rather, the drawing-out of the torment for the characters is the important part in these grimdark tales. If it's all torment, all the time, it's just sadism.

[Urauloth]

Yeah, I'm a big fan of pro wrestling as well, but I don't want WH40k narratives written the same way I want to see matches booked.

[Nagashsnee]

I have been thinking about this thread and the way the lore in 9^th and 10^th has been handled and would like to propose both theory which then leads to a solution.

GW customers can broadly be split into 3 groups:

1)      Pure gamers, don’t really know or care about the lore other then the super basics, are here for the wargaming and maybe the painting and that’s it.

2)      Middle grounders, some probably started as the above, or got into it thru pc gaming, but honestly I think the vast majority fall into this category. They play the game, they might read some lore, they have a general idea of everything but wont care too much for things outside their faction.

3)      The lore/hobby lovers, may not have played in years. Might not even own minis any more, or collect just to paint. But loves the setting, loves the lore, and is actively engaged with it (the posters of this sun fall into here).

 

Now what does this have to do with 10^th edition lore you ask? Well I will tell you. At a point I will vaguely argue was 7^th edition GW started pivoting their main game books (codex, campaigns, events) away from the kind of thing that would please group 3 and very very much more group 1 and 2 ground. This made sense as they were the bread and butter customers of the game and they did not really care if a codex has tons of new art, and short stories, and is consistent with the lore. They definitely did not care if their codex brought in new lore and explored the universe. Very soon gone were the days of the necron codex having 6+ short stories exploring the relationship between necrons,the star gods, the mechanicus and their place in the eldars version of the war in heaven. And instead we got the 8^th edition codexs using the pre existing art for covers (like how lazy and cheap can you be, it’s the bloody cover) and the lore parts being more or less 95% re prints of the previous book. No one was writing new stuff, no one was commissioning lore work, and even art was a bare minimum.

 

This in the long term has been very very very bad for the game and we will see 10^th as a example. 10^th was hyped to be the 4^th tyrannic war, a HUGE event of galaxy shaking proportions. In theory the codex would have mirror this by having stories of the war, little snippets of the battles against the nids, new special characters would come about who have risen battling this menace (like Tycho with the orcs, or Cassies with the nids, or Yarrick with Orks). As the edition progressed the books would slowly lay out the basic placement and struggle each faction is going thru usually, PLUS specifically against the Tyranids. And if some are not involved, say dark eldar, how they are acting with everyone else being tied up and looking the other way.

 

Eventually a event book would be put out, not about anything specific, a general Armagedon, Cadia, City Fight, what have you book that introduces some tyrannic war specific stuff. But ALSO has more lore, maps, info etc.

Bl would put out some novels resolving around the fringes of the war and introduce some characters who interact a little with our key players. Taking the basic tapestry the studio is making and adding details and life that makes the universe feel BIG.  Your classic last chancers style books.  By the time we get to the end of the edition cycle (2-3 years)  the stage would be set for the game to drop the main (and concluding) campaign book, showing the big battles, and big events and of course !!!! BIG MINIATURE RELEASES!!!!. And a year ish after that a nice BL narrative book bringing it all together.

 

Instead we have the reality, 9^th main plot (the pariah nexus) only got its campaign book in 10^th, 10^th main plot (the tyrannic war) has been sideline to advance (not even conclude, just push) the plot that was sidelined for other things in 9^th.  During all this they are also throwing out campaign books on random stuff, like the war of rust, vigilus and who knows what else. None of it is getting any real support, none of it gets any real lore, none of it ends up mattering at all. And by next edition none of it makes any lines of text change in any of the army books.  Because the army books are no longer being thought of as you introduction to the faction. Heck they arent even the source of your rules really (buy the app for the REAL stuff).  Even the BL books that use army book lore paragraphs will be a dying breed as they are not adding new paragraphs. They are not investing the resources into the building blocks of the lore. 

 

My main point is this, BL is not the source of the problem, they are suffering from the symptoms. And no solution will work if its only aimed at BL. Sure they have their issues, but for me is the company has altered how it deals with the lore. And how it puts out the lore, and the sad fact for me is that they care allot less about the lore.   Everything resolves around the rules and miniature releases now.  And that branches out to affect everything.

 

Edit: To have your WWF drama fights, and to have your set stage wrestling you need a stage, you need backround and costumes and a 'world' that the fans feel is lived in. 40k has forgotten that to get the big flashy stuff you also need to do the boring stuff. New arenas, new costumes, basic world upkeep. 

 

We are what 2 years into the 4th tyranic war. I have no idea on where, who or what is really happening. Like dawn of fire and its scattershot plot, i am losing the will to care.    If edition are to be themed, they need to INVEST into the theme. Otherwise wrestling just becomes two middle aged fit people fake fighting real fast. It needs the pagentry, the costumes, the flashiness. 

 

Edited October 17 by Nagashsnee

[TheArtilleryman]

Cato Sicarius would be a good candidate for a heroic death next edition, seeing as he still doesn’t have a primaris model yet and he’s very similar to Uriel Ventris that already has one.

[Nagashsnee]

21 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Cato Sicarius would be a good candidate for a heroic death next edition, seeing as he still doesn’t have a primaris model yet and he’s very similar to Uriel Ventris that already has one.

Calgar vs Abadon was the jumping the shark moment for me. Because it was the PERFECT death. Not only narratively, as you have the Chapter Master of the core Marine chapter going up against the Big bad of chaos and 7/8th ed with the whole rift fall of cadia thing.  But because on a meta narative level it was PEEEERRRRFFFEEEECT. 

 

It sets up so many interesting road for the future. You have the Sicarius vs Ageman succession choice injecting actual living ongoing narrative to the Ultramarines. You have Guiliman and the wider imperium having to deal with the death of a famous and key son/hero. You have a player base which would collectively LOSE ITS MIND trying to guess who GW might off next now that the gate of death is open.  You have Chaos having a key narrative victory in the post rift Imperium and making every upcoming event/book have that sliver of suspense that currently doesnt exist.  But most importantly of all, you have a clear line that not everyone is going to make the crossing to Primaris. That this IS  a new, active and ongoing 40k, with a living breathing narrative. And next time you hype up a Dante vs Angron showdown you have a fanbase which WILL wonder if its new model or new Chapter master. 

 

Since they elected to skip the timeskip cleaning up opportunity, Vigilus and Calgar was THE moment to put their money where their mouth is in regards to a living, ongoing narative. Instead they had the fight and everything got reset to status quo 'yawn'.   Instead I am expected to be excited for the third version of Lemartes i have been called upon to buy ( i did not his 2 iteration works just fine and is not that old model wise).  

[darkhorse0607]

I would not be a fan of killing off the only Ultramarines character other than Guilliman to actually have a fleshed-out story arc that actually progresses him as a character.

 

As Nagashsnee said, even though I like Calgar, I would've preferred him to die at Vigilus for the reasons he said

 

3 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

 

My main point is this, BL is not the source of the problem, they are suffering from the symptoms. And no solution will work if its only aimed at BL. Sure they have their issues, but for me is the company has altered how it deals with the lore. And how it puts out the lore, and the sad fact for me is that they care allot less about the lore.   Everything resolves around the rules and miniature releases now.  And that branches out to affect everything.

 

 

 

Yeah, after listening to the Josh Reynolds interview I am leaning more towards this. I've said it on here before but I could only imagine how frustrating it is for the authors to get

"we need you to write about the Psychic Awakening"

"Ok"

 

two weeks pass

 

"Actually we need you to write about the Arks of Omen"

"The what"

 

"How about a big Tyranid invasion?"

"Ok that I understand"

"Cool, then make it about the Pariah Nexus"

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17 by darkhorse0607

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

And instead we got the 8^th edition codexs using the pre existing art for covers (like how lazy and cheap can you be, it’s the bloody cover) and the lore parts being more or less 95% re prints of the previous book. No one was writing new stuff, no one was commissioning lore work, and even art was a bare minimum.

 

I've said it before, and will continue to say it.

 

8th is the event horizon, it's the problem in every way, from the narrative, the lore, the setting vs story, the awful lore injections, and even at the game level.

 

I mean look at 10th. It's an abomination.

 

/farm_mode True

[byrd9999]

10th Ed is my favourite edition of 40k.

 

8th was great fun too, but 9th was a mess.

[byrd9999]

Maybe it's time to lock this thread?

 

It has just become another "GW/BL is the worst and I hate it, I hate the books and the games and I hate everything they do" thread.

 

There's enough already in the BL subsection. We don't need another.

 

Scribe, if you've said it before, maybe you don't need to say it again, continually.

 

Step away from the hobby if you feel that way.

 

No need to spread so much unconstructive negativity.

[Scribe]

20 minutes ago, byrd9999 said:

Maybe it's time to lock this thread?

 

It has just become another "GW/BL is the worst and I hate it, I hate the books and the games and I hate everything they do" thread.

 

There's enough already in the BL subsection. We don't need another.

 

Scribe, if you've said it before, maybe you don't need to say it again, continually.

 

Step away from the hobby if you feel that way.

 

No need to spread so much unconstructive negativity.

 

"What is the story of 10th, or why cant BL do better."

 

8th is the inflection point, as outlined, its where the approach to pretty much everything changed, and its been a decline since then.

 

"Why cant BL do better?"

 

Because with 8th, GW changed how it operates towards its own IP.

 

Maybe the threads just not for you?

[Nagashsnee]

36 minutes ago, byrd9999 said:

Maybe it's time to lock this thread?

 

It has just become another "GW/BL is the worst and I hate it, I hate the books and the games and I hate everything they do" thread.

 

 

I think this is a very unfair take. Saying what you perfered from previous editions vs current is not hate.  Saying I think they could do x or y instead of a and b and it would be better is not calling anything the worst. 

 

This thread called for a talk on where 10th may or may not have dropped the ball on the lore. If you disagree with people make your point. If you don't like the discussion don't take part.

 

No one hijacked a thread. No one is being mean spirited or hatefull. No one is trying to stop others from talking about the hobby...well except YOU.

 

If you find the way recent editions have handled the lore to be perfect and above reproach or criticism I for one would find your pov fascinating.  But if you have no point to make why even post?

 

 

[Gamiel]

10 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

Instead we have the reality, 9^th main plot (the pariah nexus) only got its campaign book in 10^th,

I take it you do not read White Dwarf, lots of pariah nexus lore and rules there. 

[DukeLeto69]

11 hours ago, Nagashsnee said:

3)      The lore/hobby lovers, may not have played in years. Might not even own minis any more, or collect just to paint. But loves the setting, loves the lore, and is actively engaged with it (the posters of this sun fall into here).

That sums up me pretty well. Approx 22 years since I last bought a mini or played the TT game.

[Nagashsnee]

11 hours ago, Gamiel said:

I take it you do not read White Dwarf, lots of pariah nexus lore and rules there. 

 

While i do not read white dwarf often, i am familiar with the pariah stuff (enough people i game with get it that i most of the time get the chance to leech a read). They did indeed drop some lore and rules in white dwarf. I have also seen the warhammer plus Pariah nexus content which would i think also count as lore? 

 

But i fail to see how that impacts the quoted comment? Namely the thematic center of 9th did not get its time in the shine focus rise, be it lore, rules or merch, but instead that is happening during 10th (which iirc also has white dwarf contant with the nexus) while 10ths thematic focus (the 4th tyranic war) is being treated like the nexus was in 9th. They are in affect playing catch up. For me the pariah nexus campaign book, cards, missions, shows, etc should have been the core of 9th edition. 

[wecanhaveallthree]

Scribe, I completely and totally disagree with you. Not even respectfully - I disagree so much I'm not even going to give you the grey circle. 

 

8th Edition was where things got wacky and weird and fun. Naga up above puts it perfectly: it was, at least at the start, a time where anything could happen. Cadia? Broke. Primarch? Back. Abaddon? Armed (but not dangerous, cos' let's not get too wild). The Imperium got snapped in half. We had a deluge of books where MILLIONS MUST DIE - how insane was it that after Marines being effectively invincible pre-8th in fluff that the Blood Angels died nearly to a man in Devastation of Baal, with whole Chapters of the Blood being wiped out? How crazy is it that we got books delving right into the guts of the Throneworld, or the SPACE SHARKS, or Knights, or the IRON HANDS, the return of Gaunt's Ghosts, Spear of the Emperor, the Ynnari - 8th Edition gave us a massive outpouring of both new creativity and avenues explored as well as the return of old favourites. 8th Edition saw the hobby explode in popularity. In short, we were eating good.

 

But there is a distinct 'wrench' away from those themes and stories. 8th opened the floodgates, and someone jammed them shut again for who-knows-what reason. Maybe things got scary. Maybe it was too much change, too fast. Either way, Warhammer at the moment feels half-formed, half-molted - like it's still in a transition period, but one that's been going on for years now. 

[Nagashsnee]

To its credit, 8th edition central starter theme i.e the Plague Wars (even tho the box was called dark imperium even tho it does not take place in the dark imperium, for whatever marketing reason) did get a trilogy of books that explored the conflict and CONCLUDED the story.  There were short stories and references to it all about.  It set a central theme (Mortarions invasion of Ultramar) and like how they did it or not ( i thought it was fine) they gave that story a start-middle and ending. 

 

Of course no one died and everyone went off to their next mega battle, but still it was on the whole a complete product...even if they then retconned it and had to re print the whole thing.  Godblight was released a year ish iirc into 9th so while they did not managed to do in during the edition it was still shortly after.  So cudos to guy haley and the bl team for doing it, and the studio team for co ordinating with them.

[LSM]

5 hours ago, wecanhaveallthree said:

...8th opened the floodgates, and someone jammed them shut again for who-knows-what reason. Maybe things got scary. Maybe it was too much change, too fast...

 

Not to speak for Scribe, but I'd venture that there's an argument that "opening the floodgates" can only be a temporary act (in the lore for a game based on models that stay in production for upwards of thirty years). It might not be the case of someone jamming them shut, but that after the initial spurt... levels inherently fall to a trickle. Floodgates as a metaphor, y'know... Excess water builds up, so the people at the dam open the floodgates, and then water levels return to normal. 

[darkhorse0607]

I actually think that is the right way to go about it though (if you do go about it at all)

 

Every 5-10 years or so, do something big. Blow up Cadia. Split the Galaxy in two. Tyranids everywhere. Necron civil war. Etc. Something that actually changes the current setting

 

Take that interim time and develop the next part. Let the BL authors catch up and flesh it out. Let folks dig into it and tell their army's story.

 

But that requires the self-restraint on the development studio's part to actually a) make it matter and b) stop. And I think that's where the issue lies

 

I think the problem (again, going with the assumption they're going to advance things and not just let it be a setting) is that they didn't have the self-restraint or even the confidence to hold their course and now we have super-fight^TM number 500 and other things that make no difference or are very mcguffiny (I'm looking at you Vashtorr)

 

If they had blown up Cadia and then did the Guilliman thing and left it until 10th, we could've spent the last 6 years fleshing out the Crusade, the Primaris, Cawl, etc. It would've avoided the Psychic Awakening that I still don't even know if it happened or not because of the time jump back, could've avoided the time jump in itself, etc.

 

But they didn't have the self-restraint. It wasn't enough that the galaxy split in two, they HAD to have the Psychic Awakening, then they lost their nerve and went back, now there HAS to be a super scary mcguffin character in Vashtorr, AND there has to be resurrected Caliban, AND there has to be a 4th Tyrannic War, AND there has to be Pariah Nexus, AND there has to be a Necron civil war AND the list goes on

 

 

[phandaal]

5 hours ago, darkhorse0607 said:

But they didn't have the self-restraint. It wasn't enough that the galaxy split in two, they HAD to have the Psychic Awakening, then they lost their nerve and went back, now there HAS to be a super scary mcguffin character in Vashtorr, AND there has to be resurrected Caliban, AND there has to be a 4th Tyrannic War, AND there has to be Pariah Nexus, AND there has to be a Necron civil war AND the list goes on

 

This could be where the lack of a continuous narrative comes from. "Big, bold moves" are not a narrative. They are just fireworks, and if the fireworks never end then it just becomes background noise.

 

If we are going back to the Pariah Nexus for a while, that would be a good chance to create a narrative for one or two editions.

[TheArtilleryman]

I haven’t kept up with the plot at all. I know nothing about the psychic awakening, pariah nexus, Arks of Omen, Baal. Even Leviathan I don’t really know what’s going on except there’s another hive fleet turned up. I’m reading a ton of older books and HH series currently, but haven’t touched the newer stuff at all. There’s just a bit too much of it all to know where to start.

[lansalt]

There's a real problem with GW campaign books dissapearing after they're sold out, while most BL stories are at least available in their website in digital formats.

Probably the most obvious case is the Gathering Storm trilogy, but it's the same for the Psychic awakening, pariah nexus, Arks of Omen, etc series. So keeping track of what's going on in the main studio's 40k narrative is pretty much impossible.

 

I wonder if that's by design, to feed FOMO but also being able to recycle content multiple times without fans complaining.

[byrd9999]

On 10/17/2024 at 6:08 PM, byrd9999 said:

Maybe it's time to lock this thread?

 

It has just become another "GW/BL is the worst and I hate it, I hate the books and the games and I hate everything they do" thread.

 

There's enough already in the BL subsection. We don't need another.

 

Scribe, if you've said it before, maybe you don't need to say it again, continually.

 

Step away from the hobby if you feel that way.

 

No need to spread so much unconstructive negativity.

 

Looking back, I think I overreacted.

 

Apologies.

[Gamiel]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

There's a real problem with GW campaign books dissapearing after they're sold out, while most BL stories are at least available in their website in digital formats.

Probably the most obvious case is the Gathering Storm trilogy, but it's the same for the Psychic awakening, pariah nexus, Arks of Omen, etc series. So keeping track of what's going on in the main studio's 40k narrative is pretty much impossible.

 

I wonder if that's by design, to feed FOMO but also being able to recycle content multiple times without fans complaining.

I think it's a question about GW not thinking it's worth the cost for them.