EC Rumours

[TheNicronomicon]

6 hours ago, Rain said:

Agreed as to what should be common units such as Predators, Dreadnaughts, Terminator Lords, and some others. I can only guess that these removals are for gameplay army identity reasons, but I agree that they make little sense lorewise.

 

I would imagine it's more about GW wanting to move away from old kits to newer ones than for anything gameplay related. I guess it's possible they're going to neuter cult legion armies in service to that; we'll have to see how the other three look when GW drops them. The fact that EC only have the Chaos Land Raider for long-range anti-tank is pretty crazy though.  Is there a chance of them dropping new models with the Gauntlet campaign? (Which, yes, I'd be pretty pissed about having to buy a whole separate book a few months after a codex drop just to be able to field a semi-balanced army.) (On the other hand maybe the plan is to make each cult legion really good at one specific phase of the game and complete ass at the rest of it? "They're simply too ChAoTiC to drive tanks!")

[Rain]

27 minutes ago, TheNicronomicon said:

 

I would imagine it's more about GW wanting to move away from old kits to newer ones than for anything gameplay related. I guess it's possible they're going to neuter cult legion armies in service to that; we'll have to see how the other three look when GW drops them.

This would make sense, but the Land Raider and Rhino kits are much older than the Helbrute. I suppose one could make the argument that removing these would remove all transports from EC, which was seen as unacceptable. But then they also removed the Forgefiend, but not the Maulerfiend, and that’s a dual kit. Perhaps it’s a bit of both. Who really knows.

[TheMawr]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

This would make sense, but the Land Raider and Rhino kits are much older than the Helbrute. I suppose one could make the argument that removing these would remove all transports from EC, which was seen as unacceptable. But then they also removed the Forgefiend, but not the Maulerfiend, and that’s a dual kit. Perhaps it’s a bit of both. Who really knows.

 

Might not be so much the age alone. Rhino and Land raider are, well, ancient... yet I doubt GW has any priority to update them anytime soon for various reasons probably. And there is less "need" while the Hellbrute doesnt really compare to the comparative miniatures anymore, the rhino and landraider ARE the comparative miniatures most of the time, and are just as old as the others ( Wave serpent/Falcon.. the Tau ones and the guard ones.)

 

As for Predator and Vindicator, if Im being honest I dont expect them to be updated either.. but rather replaced with a more chaos specific thing. GW Mainstudio does prefer making new vehicles over updating old or very old ones.

 

But there is an important part in your last sentence "perhaps its a bit of both." I said it before (though maybe that was just on TGA), there is a tendency to assume that the consequences we see have all the (exact) same motivation, but its far more likely that them not including things in the list/removing things can have different reasons.

 

In some cases it can be as simple as there being no plastic kit now or soon ( Slaanesh herald for example.. I do suspect Nurgle and Khorne do get the herald.) in some cases it might be something standing in the way of future releases ( Forgefiend probably, I dont expect that kit to go away anytime soon.) and with others its more about creating a sense of differentiation between factions and/or settings ( The Masque, the specialised daemon heralds, CSM HQ characters.) yet for others its unclear until the other cult codexes ( Tanks, Hellbrute, Cultists.) and all of that can co exist as different motivations for the same consequence.

 

In general since the 9th edition guard and world eaters releases it has been clear that GW is done with dripfeeding removals, and went for an edition of ripping the band aid off. ( in both settings.) it might just be me naively thinking its just one aggressive move that will settle after the edition, but I do prefer it, though I think it should have been done at the index stage. ( not applyable for EC though.)

[BitsHammer]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

This would make sense, but the Land Raider and Rhino kits are much older than the Helbrute. I suppose one could make the argument that removing these would remove all transports from EC, which was seen as unacceptable. But then they also removed the Forgefiend, but not the Maulerfiend, and that’s a dual kit. Perhaps it’s a bit of both. Who really knows.

 I checked earlier: Land Raiders, Rhinos and Chaos Predator kits are from 2002. They have likely seen new molds since then to replace worn ones, but the sculpt is over 20 years old at this point and in need of something.

 

Honestly I'd love to see us get some Chaos Deimos pattern Rhinos and Predator tanks as well as Chaos MkI Land Raiders (I mean they have the base STL for all three so just make it appropriately weird and I'll buy them).

[Rain]

The Land Raider is actually from the late 90’s, I think. The Rhino is from 2002 or thereabouts. It’s amazing how well the kits have held up all things considered. I still vastly prefer them to any of the new SM vehicles which are too busy to have the timeless, iconic quality of these kits.

Edited March 6 by Rain

[Ahzek451]

I mean, GW already has updated the rhino/land raider/predator. Horus Heresy. If they were smart, they would take those kits, add in a new chaos upgrade sprue with a ton of options for chaos god stuff, and re-box it. GW clearly wants to drive home a difference between current day primaris space marines and chaos marines. Primaris already has the latest and greatest grav arsenal. Ok, so how cool would it be that the renegades of old used chaosified tracked vehicles they still held onto from the heresy(now heavily corrupted)? And because the kits are reboxed with new upgrade sprues, you can clearly separate them from HH sales. 

And to be clear, I would just do this for the predator/land raider/rhino/vindicator. As these were abundant and easier to hold onto for each legion. But, GW COULD take a vehicle here and there and modify it and give it specifically to one legion. Say, a sicaran tool'd up with noise weapons that only exists for EC. 

Edited March 6 by Ahzek451

[01RTB01]

I'll be porting over my heresy era vehicles for 40k. The Deimos pattern stuff and the Proteus land Raider for me are so much more iconic. They're also already painted so 4 land raiders and 2 rhinos ready to roll.

[Evil Eye]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

The Land Raider is actually from the late 90’s, I think. The Rhino is from 2002 or thereabouts. It’s amazing how well the kits have held up all things considered. I still vastly prefer them to any of the new SM vehicles which are too busy to have the timeless, iconic quality of these kits.

The Land Raider is a bit questionable fit and finish wise (to say nothing of the complete NONSENSE of the interior) but when built well it's a wonderful looking model. And the Rhino and its variants are basically perfect IMO. Sure they're not big enough to fit 10 Marines in the back but as has been said many times before, a Rhino capable of carrying 10 true-scaled Marines in the back would be unplayably enormous. And yeah, the Primaris tanks are definitely weak links in the newer range; the Impulsor is OK (though I'd much prefer it to have actual tracks, and I just do not care for the fixation on putting stubbers on Marine vehicles) but the Repulsor has so much extra crap on it that frankly it ends up looking like a G.I. Joe toy. And not even one of the good ones like the Mauler or the MOBAT, more like one of the weird 90s ones as popularity began to die out.

 

1 hour ago, Ahzek451 said:

I mean, GW already has updated the rhino/land raider/predator. Horus Heresy. If they were smart, they would take those kits, add in a new chaos upgrade sprue with a ton of options for chaos god stuff, and re-box it. GW clearly wants to drive home a difference between current day primaris space marines and chaos marines. Primaris already has the latest and greatest grav arsenal. Ok, so how cool would it be that the renegades of old used chaosified tracked vehicles they still held onto from the heresy(now heavily corrupted)? And because the kits are reboxed with new upgrade sprues, you can clearly separate them from HH sales. 

And to be clear, I would just do this for the predator/land raider/rhino/vindicator. As these were abundant and easier to hold onto for each legion. But, GW COULD take a vehicle here and there and modify it and give it specifically to one legion. Say, a sicaran tool'd up with noise weapons that only exists for EC. 

That'd be an interesting move and I can't say I'd hate it. I'd especially be happy if the options from the Proteus got 40K rules (the alternate hull-turret guns and the augury web that can replace the assault ramp mainly). My only issue would be I really don't want to see the classic 40K-era SM vehicles retired without a proper replacement. As mentioned above, the Rhino and derivatives could feasibly keep on trucking (tanking?) for years, and a new Phobos Land Raider kit with sharper details, better parts fit, a slight redesign to alleviate some of the peculiarities of the current one (mainly regarding that interior) and more options would be nice- especially if we get the options to build the old FW variants (Prometheus, Helios and Achilles).

[HeadlessCross]

15 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

As one of the effected players, having an EC army I've been fielding since 8th edition, I'm not actually convinced that players have lost to ability to play any models in their collection.  Yes, they may not be able to play their existing models under a ruleset called "Emperor's Children", but nothing prevents them from fielding them under the exact same rules that they are using for them now - the current CSM codex.

 

I can understand how that is not ideal, and may be upsetting for many.  Myself, I am resigned (and saddened) to now carrying on my current "Emperor's Children" army as a Slanneshi flavoured Chaos Space Marine army, and not being able to field most of my existing models under the new EC Codex.  That said, all of my models remain legal under the ruleset I am currently playing them - in that regard, the 10th edition CSM codex invalidating autogun cultists (which continues to annoy me) had a bigger effect on my army's playability than the EC codex does.

 

So yes, I can understand being annoyed and dismayed by the units left out of the EC codex - I am one of the people that feel that way.  But to say my current models are not playable due to the EC codex is grossly inaccurate - they are just as playable post EC codex as they were prior to it.  I just can't call them "Emperor's Children" in terms of rules, though there is nothing preventing me from referring to them as such in terms of background, history or organization.  Sure, that disconnect may annoy some players, but that's not the same as being unplayable.

Yeah, until you decide you wanted to buy Fulgrim and made the silly mistake of preordering, and all the sudden your 20 man Terminator list or your list with two Predators doesn't work. 

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah, until you decide you wanted to buy Fulgrim and made the silly mistake of preordering, and all the sudden your 20 man Terminator list or your list with two Predators doesn't work. 

 

Fulgrim isn't available for pre order. Again. You're just been obstinate for the sake of it.

 

Praying for you frater.

Edited March 6 by 01RTB01

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah, until you decide you wanted to buy Fulgrim

Consider it divine punishment for falling for the Primarch meme. 

 

In case the banana wasn't enough, this is a joke.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

1 hour ago, 01RTB01 said:

 

Fulgrim isn't available for pre order. Again. You're just been obstinate for the sake of it.

 

I don't think that's really fair, and that isn't what HC says.  Rather, he says wanted to field Fulgrim, and that as a result he preordered - which makes sense, if you want to field a model that you also pick up the other models that would let you do that.

 

That said, to lock in a certain army list upon that you must field to enjoy the codex before seeing the codex, its rules or even the units it includes seems... imprudent.

 

That said, I do understand HC's disappointment and hopefully he can offload the component parts of his preorder (or cancel it) if the army isn't for him.

Edited March 6 by Dr_Ruminahui

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

There is no justification for EC players being locked out of Predators. Lots of people like tanks and wanted a tank EC army. It's just BS by GW. 

[Mogger351]

23 minutes ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

 

I don't think that's really fair, and that isn't what HC says.  Rather, he says wanted to field Fulgrim, and that as a result he preordered - which makes sense, if you want to field a model that you also pick up the other models that would let you do that.

 

That said, to lock in a certain army list upon that you must field to enjoy the codex before seeing the codex, its rules or even the units it includes seems... imprudent.

 

That said, I do understand HC's disappointment and hopefully he can offload the component parts of his preorder (or cancel it) if the army isn't for him.

After their tone and contributions it's hard to have sympathy for a weird hypothetical to be honest.

 

As you say, buying a load of random models without seeing rules, based off blind assumptions, is never a good idea. It's not like we've not had reliable rumours on the contents since before any preorder windows went up.

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

There is no justification for EC players being locked out of Predators. Lots of people like tanks and wanted a tank EC army. It's just BS by GW. 

There's no justification for them not having razorbacks, assault cannons, allied mechanicum units. Conversely what's the justification for 2 pseudo legionnaires units, different chaos lords etc.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

 

I don't think that's really fair, and that isn't what HC says.  Rather, he says wanted to field Fulgrim, and that as a result he preordered - which makes sense, if you want to field a model that you also pick up the other models that would let you do that.

 

That said, to lock in a certain army list upon that you must field to enjoy the codex before seeing the codex, its rules or even the units it includes seems... imprudent.

 

That said, I do understand HC's disappointment and hopefully he can offload the component parts of his preorder (or cancel it) if the army isn't for him.

 

I can understand the disappointment but fulgrim isn't available for pre order at this stage which is what was being referenced.

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

After their tone and contributions it's hard to have sympathy for a weird hypothetical to be honest.

 

As you say, buying a load of random models without seeing rules, based off blind assumptions, is never a good idea. It's not like we've not had reliable rumours on the contents since before any preorder windows went up.

It's a weird hypothetical that an EC player had even 1 or 2 Predators they can't use?

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

There's no justification for them not having razorbacks, assault cannons, allied mechanicum units. Conversely what's the justification for 2 pseudo legionnaires units, different chaos lords etc.

Back in ye olden days, I think the Razorback STC was stated to have been found significantly post-Heresy. Assault cannons were likewise explained as a post-Heresy derivative of the Reaper Autocannon still used by Chaos Terminators.
 

It added a fun bit of flavor, and offset Chaos having demons and some stronger melee units such as Khorne Berzerkers with loyalists having more advanced tech (especially as it related to shooting) like assault cannons, Razorbacks, and Land Speeders.

 

Not sure when/if this was retconned.

[01RTB01]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Back in ye olden days, I think the Razorback STC was stated to have been found significantly post-Heresy. Assault cannons were likewise explained as a post-Heresy derivative of the Reaper Autocannon still used by Chaos Terminators.
 

It added a fun bit of flavor, and offset Chaos having demons and some stronger melee units such as Khorne Berzerkers with loyalists having more advanced tech (especially as it related to shooting) like assault cannons, Razorbacks, and Land Speeders.

 

Not sure when/if this was retconned.

Back in 2nd they didn't have jump pack access either. This was changed with the introduction of raptors in 3rd ed if memory serves. Raptors and obliterators both introduced then but the models were... an acquired taste.

[Gree]

On 3/5/2025 at 11:39 AM, Rain said:

Second, Khorne does not have “priests” as such. Khorne sermon is the scream of the chainaxe. His temple is the battlefield. His creed is killing. That’s it. He does not patronize reading books and reciting prayers, his truest apostles are the berzerkers themselves. 

 

Baruda, a ''Blood Priest'' Chaplain shows up in Khârn: Eater of Worlds. A World Eater Dark Apostle shows up briefly in Angron: Red Angel, as part of Kossolax's forces. (Alongside a Warpsmith and a Terminator Lord, neither of which can be taken in the World Eaters Codex)

 

[LSM]

24 minutes ago, 01RTB01 said:

...This was changed with the introduction of raptors in 3rd ed if memory serves...

 

Mmmhhmm.

 

Raptors were still even a 0-1 choice in 3rd, with the codex noting "At the time of the Horus Heresy, the Adeptus Astartes made very limited use of jump packs. Those that escaped to the Eye of Terror with theirs were a rare breed who, after millennia swooping and soaring in the burning skies of Daemon Worlds, became a faction that cut across the boundaries of the Traitor Legions, unified by the thrill of the hunt."

 

Of course, things are a bit different now.

[crimsondave]

If you are playing a friendly game I certainly wouldn't stop you from using your Predators (or anything else in the CSM codex for that matter.)  If you're playing competitive, that's just part of it.

[Mogger351]

7 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's a weird hypothetical that an EC player had even 1 or 2 Predators they can't use?

Your post reads like someone had preordered a fulgrim at their lgs or something along with a horde of other minis, after making up a list in their head.

 

That said in reality you're asking "why can't I use my codex chaos space marines army verbatim in my codex emperors children force", but the answer is obvious.

 

You have a chaos space marines army, you can still use it as a chaos space marines army. GW have defined what a stand alone, rules supported EC force is and has, but bricks of 10 terminators and predators aren't it.

 

You don't have to be happy about it, but angrily barking at anyone/thing to the contrary isn't going to help.

3 hours ago, crimsondave said:

If you are playing a friendly game I certainly wouldn't stop you from using your Predators (or anything else in the CSM codex for that matter.)  If you're playing competitive, that's just part of it.

This is the spirit!

[Lord Marshal]

Fulgrim and Co. pre-orders next week.

 

Edited Sunday at 04:56 PM by Lord Marshal

[01RTB01]

I look forward to failing to get a copy of the super shiny codex.