EC Rumours

[ZeroWolf]

33 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

For me the biggest thing with this release is that it'll force them to tip their hand on what happens with daemons.

I would say that the complaining from the DW players might have gave then pause for concern over the similar demon plans but then again, the EC codex has probably already been finalised and off to the printers soon, if not there now.

[Nephaston]

I could see it handwaved as these legionnaires being initiates of a sort, similar to how the World Eaters have marines joining up in their regular gear until they can get the nails implanted in one of the recent books.

 

But they need a name that isn't just "Emperors Children Legionnaires". Something like aspirants, hedonites, or something.

Another possibility of course is that the 10-man still are noise marines, while the 6-man are Kakophoni as a form of exalted noise marine.

For the 3-man I'm fine with either terminators or possessed.

[Xenith]

Noise marines units also all started with bolt pistol and chainsword, and were upgraded to have the sonic weapons - fully possible that there might be a EC Legionaires box, or Melee oriented nm box. 

 

Hopefully you don't just get the AoS kits ported to 40k, despite how gorgeous they are. 

[Mogger351]

43 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

I would say that the complaining from the DW players might have gave then pause for concern over the similar demon plans but then again, the EC codex has probably already been finalised and off to the printers soon, if not there now.

I think people overstate the impact of the deathwatch reaction, a vaguely worded pdf update doesn't put them back in a codex and makes them easy to drop again if needed next time.

 

If its done anything it'll be to encourage a daemons only detachment on a pdf with a limited shelf life.

[Dark Shepherd]

1 hour ago, ZeroWolf said:

I would say that the complaining from the DW players might have gave then pause for concern over the similar demon plans but then again, the EC codex has probably already been finalised and off to the printers soon, if not there now.

Infernal Enrapturess would fit in soooo well with EC

[apologist]

Having Noise Marines as the Cult Troops – a specialist for other warbands, but the core of the Emperor's Children proper – seems fitting, but the more I think about it, the more I like the fact that the different Legions differ slightly.

 

Cults, Warbands and Legions

Both the real-world and in-universe histories of the various 'Cult Legions' (World Eaters, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons and Death Guard) have varied considerably. The Realm of Chaos volumes had army lists for each, but they were different more in proportions of common unit types than anything else. The differences were down to Marks of Chaos, which could be applied to Assault, Tactical and Support units equally, so there weren't Berserkers or Plague Marines per se, but rather World Eater Assault Marines with the Mark of Khorne; and Death Guard Tactical Marines with the Mark of Nurgle.

 

Rubric Marines and, most relevant to the topic, Noise Marines, didn't exist in any real sense.

 

Come second edition, the Cult Legions each had a special unit created for them as emblematic of each of the Powers (rather than as the Legions): the Berserkers, Plague Marines, Thousand Sons (note not 'Rubric Marines' yet); and Noise Marines.

 

Specialists or line troops?

The background was vague and varied on whether the WE, DG, TS and EC were made up purely of these specialists; with the emphasis firmly on making your own warband that might favour one or the other. The implication was that the Legions, such as they were, had long ago degraded – though there were tantalising hints that some remained more organised and complete than others; and the Power(s) your army followed was more relevant than the Legion to which they belonged – for veterans were few and far between.

 

This approach had some complications, particularly in following rulesets as the Legions started to take more of a central role in people's understanding of Chaos armies. Berserkers, for example, commonly turned up in Iron Warrior lists, so while they slotted quite nicely into 'Khorne-worshipping specialists' from other Legions, Thousand Sons didn't – and thus were renamed as 'Rubric Marines', the background now suggesting that other Sorcerors could repeat Ahriman's great Rubric.

 

The problem Cult armies had was that they were inherently limited. With the exception of Plague Marine Havocs in 4th(?) edition, you've had to rely on other non-cult units for particular tasks – an awkward cludge that has meant that for seemingly no good reason, Thousand Sons and Plague Marines (et al.) couldn't operate anything except boltguns for a long time. Not a problem for them, as that's the 'basic troop' small arms; and likewise World Eater armies were very thematic to be populated entirely by madmen with pistols and close combat weapons.

 

The Noise Marines, however, were a sort-of hybrid heavy support that never quite felt 'right' as the exemplars of Slaaneshi forces – a great example of excess in a broader army, but the lore (and rules) continued to emphasise the desire of Slaaneshi worshippers getting into combat. Unlike the other cult Legions, the Emperor's Children Cult troops pulled in another direction to the close-in emphasis of their other rules and characters (variously higher I, movement, immunity to morale etc.) which favoured close combat.

 

Model lines and the future

During this period the Emperor's Children didn't get the focus or model releases of the others. Noise Marines are the exception in that their releases were much more restricted and expensive (in terms of money) than the others. Plastic Berserkers made World Eater armies common, and Death Guard got extensive ranges released; and Thousand Sons, by their uniform nature, only required one kit, I don't think a similar critical mass built for Slaaneshi/Emperor's Children armies. (There are, and were, of course, beautiful examples of EC armies packed with Noise Marines, but I think they were the exception, rather than the rule.) 

 

Now, whether that's the tail wagging the dog or not, the Emperor's Children are unique amongst the Cult Legions in that they've reached the modern period of a great deal of lore being released by the studio and Black Library that makes it seem that Noise Marines are a particular cult within the Emperor's Children, rather than universal. 

 

Today, all Thousand Sons are Rubrics; all Death Guard are Plague Marines; and all World Eaters are Berserkers – to the extent that these are once again being differentiated within their Codices, e.g. special Eightbound Berserkers. 

 

The question for the Emperor's Children is whether Noise Marines are going to be a specialist element of a Legion that is otherwise made up of bolter-armed 'normal' Emperor's Children; or their core troop choice armed with sonic blasters et al.; or a halfway house in which Noise Marines are re-envisaged slightly so that all Emperor's Children are Noise Marines – but not all use the specialist equipment. 

 

If you've chewed your way through the wall o' text, you'll probably have picked up that I'm very enthusiastic about finally seeing what GW think the Emperor's Children will be in the modern era. I hope that they manage to square the circle and create a compelling force that nods to the old background while bringing a new force with some nuance to the table.

 

My hope is that the Emperor's Children Codex takes its cues from the Death Guard Codex; in that we get Noise Marines that can be armed in a variety of ways, so you can make Support Noise Marines (all with Blastmasters and Sonic Blasters); Tactical Noise Marines with boltguns and perhaps with one or two BM/SB in place of the usual special weapons; and Assault Noise Marines with Doom Sirens, neuro-whips, and the like. In essence, a fallen Legion whose members can still take on a variety of tactical roles.

 

My fear is that GW take the restrictive route of the Thousand Sons Codex, with centre stage being given to non-Rubric units; and the EC end up with a one-note gimmick of whole armies of heavy weapons led by melee specialists, and nothing in between.

 

+++

[Karhedron]

20 hours ago, Prot said:

I always wondered what the heck Fulgrim would look like at this point in the 40K universe. I mean it could really be just about anything. I can't imagine using him as a giant snake/worm. I'm curious what GW does with him.

 

The 40K versions of the Daemon Primarchs have so far stuck reasonably closely to their "classic" looks from the artwork and I expect Fulgrim will follow the trend. Probably just different enough in posing or fine details to differentiate from the FW version.

 

One interesting alternative is that they could provide both humanoid and snakelike versions of him. We know from various HH novels that Fulgrim quite likes strutting around in a body that looks like his pre-ascension form and then "hulking out" into his daemonic form at a suitably dramatic moment (such as his duel with Dorn in Saturnine). Something like they did for Morathi in AoS. I could imagine the humanoid version of Fulgrim looking a lot like Sigvald.

 

 

 

[LSM]

Vis-à-vis the "what is a Noise Marine" discussion, and the thought of "are the Emperor's Children all Noise Marines", the test I normally use is the below piece of art by Adrian Smith, (from the 2001 Index Astartes article). I see three Noise Marines, but I'd venture that a lot of people might say that it depicts only one (or zero) Noise Marines, and a couple Slaanesh Legionaries. If that's what "Slaanesh Legionaries" look like, then to me we're all just being pedantic. If it walks like a Noise Marine and is covered in modified voxgrills, augmitters, and studded leathers like a Noise Marine, then I don't mind if people don't call them a Noise Marine.

 

 

(Personally, I adore the depiction of Noise Marines in the Fabius Bile books, I just wish they had been called something else. "Choirmasters" or something.)

[Mogger351]

I'm actually quite happy to see a definition to avoid the flanderisation you see with World Eaters where they're totally allergic to guns and every 2nd word is nails, axe, skulls, blood or murder. Having "Emperors Children" be distinct from "noise marine" gives a large space to expand design scope and cover other themes of Slaanesh.

 

To go back to Khorne again, it could have been cool to have a warhounds-esque shield and spear formation, hell even some form of ranged unit as Khorne also represents martial prowess and honourable combat. He disdains treachery and sorcery , so why not lean into that and have an anti-psyker priest/unit. Instead it was all axes, all skulls, all the time. There's not even any reliable "burn" unit for the kill, maim, burn mantra.

So for Emperors Children, it's excess, it's perfection, the sonic marines come about due to a love of the sounds and harmonies etc. but there's room for some fat marines who love food, some kind of mirror based unit perhaps for vanity, or some drug loving loonies who don't perceive reality any more or something. You can do lots of things to the point of perfection and the inclusion of swordmasters seems to hint at this. So yes, let them explore more obsessions and excesses beyond sound.

 

/rant off.

Edited October 15 by Mogger351

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

For me the biggest thing with this release is that it'll force them to tip their hand on what happens with daemons.

 

I'm going to be really annoyed if Daemons get the axe.

[StrangerOrders]

I would be beyond, mayhaps even excessively, pleased if what the rumours hint at is true and the EC we see vibe with their depictions in Black Library. And I do not just say that as someone with an instinctive dislike of the somewhat excessive reverence around the earliest editions of the game (no disrespect is meant, it just makes my teeth itch in that 'original trilogy is supreme' way). 

 

The idea that we can survey the various breeds of depravity the EC succumbed to without the innate flanderization the WE and TS suffered is both shocking and pleasing, putting the range more in line with the DG (despite the smaller release wave).

 

The possessed unit is especially appealing if they are based off of Palatine Blades. It would be cool if they are a sharp contrast with more fleshy possessed we see in the other Mono-god legions. Something more elegant but also debased like the Outriders in Dark Souls maybe, as if their weapons have gradually stretched, fused with and distorted their armor. Something that is less exposed skin and more like a knight stretched into something horrific silhoutte. Like a space marine version of the Dancer of the Boreal Valley.

 

It would also help them to stand out from other possessed.

 

Granted, I say that as someone who is annoyed as the G-String-Oblitz we got who seem more like something Nid than the writhing mass of metal they are described as in the lore.

 

As far as the Noise Marines, I hope their unhelmeted heads have the same energy as the Horus Heresy sculpts. I want to see how many sutures, augments and strange mutations you can stack. If one has boom-box fists like in the Fabius books that would be sublime.

Edited October 15 by StrangerOrders

[LSM]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I'm actually quite happy to see a definition to avoid the flanderisation you see with World Eaters where they're totally allergic to guns and every 2nd word is nails, axe, skulls, blood or murder. Having "Emperors Children" be distinct from "noise marine" gives a large space to expand design scope and cover other themes of Slaanesh.

 

To go back to Khorne again, it could have been cool to have a warhounds-esque shield and spear formation, hell even some form of ranged unit as Khorne also represents martial prowess and honourable combat. He disdains treachery and sorcery , so why not lean into that and have an anti-psyker priest/unit. Instead it was all axes, all skulls, all the time. There's not even any reliable "burn" unit for the kill, maim, burn mantra.

So for Emperors Children, it's excess, it's perfection, the sonic marines come about due to a love of the sounds and harmonies etc. but there's room for some fat marines who love food, some kind of mirror based unit perhaps for vanity, or some drug loving loonies who don't perceive reality any more or something. You can do lots of things to the point of perfection and the inclusion of swordmasters seems to hint at this. So yes, let them explore more obsessions and excesses beyond sound.

 

/rant off.

 

I don't think World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army" precludes them from having ranged Berzerkers (with Plasma Cannons, maybe?) or flamer units (with Plasma Burners, maybe?) or anti-psyker units (with Plasma... ummm... uhhhh... Collars, maybe?). GW hasn't done it (yet), but... they haven't done much of anything with World Eaters (yet).

 

(Man, Jakhals are boring. Thank Loesh that this rumour suggests GW isn't going to waste an Emperor's Children kit on cultists.)

 

//

 

Noise Marines are hedonistic sensationalists in all respects. Noise Marines love sonic weapons and the screams of the dying, but they also love visual noise. The crazy colour schemes, bulging augmented optics, Photon Flash Flares, lighting things up and watching them explode. They love hurting people, and they love getting hurt.

 

Noise Marines do drugs - they do lots of drugs. They turn people into drugs.

 

Noise Marines use Sonic Weapons, yes. They also use swords, Bolt Pistols, etc. etc. I think it's Black Crusade: Tome of Excess that even talks about how Noise Marines really love Plasma weapons, because it's fun when they overheat in your hands and burn the hell out of you.

 

The Emperor's Children being "the Noise Marine army" is not restrictive - it's focussing. Same with the Death Guard being "the Plague Marine army", World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army", and Thousand Sons being "the Tzeentchian Sorcerer (plus their thralls) army". Flanderisation can happen, if GW holds too narrow a focus (see: World Eaters) but is not a guaranteed outcome (see: Death Guard).

(Gosh. The Black Library really did a number on the humble Noise Marine.)

 

//

 

And for what it's worth, the description of the Emperor's Children in WH40k: The Ultimate Guide (releasing in under a fortnight):

 

"Ostentatious and outrageous, driven to extremes by their patron God, the Emperor's Children combine armor with punk, glam rock, and heavy metal stylings. Chains, studs, and leering faces, combined with an eye-catching colour scheme, define the sons of Fulgrim."

 

 

Edited October 15 by LSM

[StrangerOrders]

9 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

I don't think World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army" precludes them from having ranged Berzerkers (with Plasma Cannons, maybe?) or flamer units (with Plasma Burners, maybe?) or anti-psyker units (with Plasma... ummm... uhhhh... Collars, maybe?). GW hasn't done it (yet), but... they haven't done much of anything with World Eaters (yet).

 

(Man, Jakhals are boring. Thank Loesh that this rumour suggests GW isn't going to waste an Emperor's Children kit on cultists.)

 

//

 

Noise Marines are hedonistic sensationalists in all respects. Noise Marines love sonic weapons and the screams of the dying, but they also love visual noise. The crazy colour schemes, bulging augmented optics, Photon Flash Flares, lighting things up and watching them explode. They love hurting people, and they love getting hurt.

 

Noise Marines do drugs - they do lots of drugs.

 

Noise Marines use Sonic Weapons, yes. They also use swords, Bolt Pistols, etc. etc. I think it's Black Crusade: Tome of Excess that even talks about how Noise Marines really love Plasma weapons, because it's fun when they overheat in your hands and burn the hell out of you.

 

The Emperor's Children being "the Noise Marine army" is not restrictive - it's focussing. Same with the Death Guard being "the Plague Marine army", World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army", and Thousand Sons being "the Tzeentchian Sorcerer (plus their thralls) army". 

(Gosh. The Black Library really did a number on the humble Noise Marine.)

Deathguard are amusingly enough quite the opposite of the angle.

 

Because most of their units are reasonable offshoots and/or evoluations of their 30k range.

 

With distinct identities outside of just being diseased.

 

Deathshroud for example are not in the least bit about plague. They are took on Nurgle's endurance, but they are still the same resolute and stoic bodyguards and warriors they always were.

 

They are undoubtably corrupt and resilient but their identity is very sharp, pronounced and is about embodying a facet of the same god without being wed-onto-death with their specific Flander Marine. 

 

If anything, the Deathguard show that your monogod legion doesn't need to be all derivatives of the same tired concept.

 

Its the same with something like Palatine Blades, something that can be corrupted by the excess and perfectionism of Slaanesh without being terminally fixated on the 80s. Even the idea of collecting strange weapons is actually part of their lore so its quite fitting if they end up possessed.

 

That being said, I do not see a good reason for Sonic Marines being stuck to purely ranged role. Nor do I see a valid reason for why we don't have Berserker bikers. Nor the lack of the Thousand Sons having a proper fast unit.

 

Or Dreadnoughts for any of them.

 

Thats just on GW and I'm dangerously close to ranting about the cult legions being pigeon-holed. I suppose I should be grateful we are getting something at all lol.

Edited October 15 by StrangerOrders

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, 01RTB01 said:

In fairness if we're getting Emperor's Children legionaries AND noise marines, that's pretty awesome to have the choice and not be pigeon holed into one choice.

Which is why it was a bad choice to separate the Cult Legions from the main CSM codex to begin with. 

[apologist]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

Vis-à-vis the "what is a Noise Marine" discussion, and the thought of "are the Emperor's Children all Noise Marines", the test I normally use is the below piece of art by Adrian Smith, (from the 2001 Index Astartes article). I see three Noise Marines, but I'd venture that a lot of people might say that it depicts only one (or zero) Noise Marines, and a couple Slaanesh Legionaries. If that's what "Slaanesh Legionaries" look like, then to me we're all just being pedantic. If it walks like a Noise Marine and is covered in modified voxgrills, augmitters, and studded leathers like a Noise Marine, then I don't mind if people don't call them a Noise Marine.

 

*SNIP*

 

(Personally, I adore the depiction of Noise Marines in the Fabius Bile books, I just wish they had been called something else. "Choirmasters" or something.)

 

Yeah, I think this is what I'm aiming at above; a 'saleable commercial miniature' needs a particular label (e.g. Emperor's Children Lithenoise Doomgrinder etc.), whereas in-universe they'd just be Brother so-and-so. The EC are in a peculiar position that we're not sure whether GW sees sonic blasters or boltguns as the standard side-arm for their warriors; the label 'Noise Marine' is rather irrelevant.

 

I like the introduction of the Kakophoni in the 30k setting; I thought that was an elegant way for the EC to have their cake and eat it. DG and TS had definite events that made them all Plague Marines or Rubricae; but that wasn't necessarily the case for the others. In 30k the WE are not all Berserkers, more and more became such until by the 41st millennium they all are. We might have supposed that it would be a creeping tendency for the EC to, and all have become Noise Marines by M41.

 

It's the (rather awesome) Fabius Bile novels that have drawn a line under that and noted that the Noise Marines stand somewhat apart from the rest of the Legion, as a sub-cult.

 

45 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I'm actually quite happy to see a definition to avoid the flanderisation you see with World Eaters where they're totally allergic to guns and every 2nd word is nails, axe, skulls, blood or murder. Having "Emperors Children" be distinct from "noise marine" gives a large space to expand design scope and cover other themes of Slaanesh.

 

To go back to Khorne again, it could have been cool to have a warhounds-esque shield and spear formation, hell even some form of ranged unit as Khorne also represents martial prowess and honourable combat. He disdains treachery and sorcery , so why not lean into that and have an anti-psyker priest/unit. Instead it was all axes, all skulls, all the time. There's not even any reliable "burn" unit for the kill, maim, burn mantra.

So for Emperors Children, it's excess, it's perfection, the sonic marines come about due to a love of the sounds and harmonies etc. but there's room for some fat marines who love food, some kind of mirror based unit perhaps for vanity, or some drug loving loonies who don't perceive reality any more or something. You can do lots of things to the point of perfection and the inclusion of swordmasters seems to hint at this. So yes, let them explore more obsessions and excesses beyond sound.

 

Again, completely agree. Back in RoC, World Eaters Support (pre-Devastator heavy weapon squads) were called the Teeth of Khorne: while the Blood God favoured close combat, players weren't completely railroaded, and could field World Eater warriors who chose to worship Khorne through long-range death and destruction – after all, Khorne cares not whence the blood flows... I felt it was a crying shame not to see some nuance in their releases – and you're spot on about a flamer-wielding unit would be a brilliant new addition! I hope that future releases expand the WE (and TS) towards a rounder-feeling list, like DG.

 

In addition (and within the inevitable constraints of real-world commercial pressures) I'd like to see the EC reflect their particular history and peculiarities, rather than being moulded to fit the way that previous Cult Legions have been released. The Cult Legions are far less like each other than their Imperial counterparts, so I think GW have a lot more scope for surprises with the EC release than, say, the difference between Dark Angels and Blood Angels. 

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

I don't think World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army" precludes them from having ranged Berzerkers (with Plasma Cannons, maybe?) or flamer units (with Plasma Burners, maybe?) or anti-psyker units (with Plasma... ummm... uhhhh... Collars, maybe?). GW hasn't done it (yet), but... they haven't done much of anything with World Eaters (yet).

 

(Man, Jakhals are boring. Thank Loesh that this rumour suggests GW isn't going to waste an Emperor's Children kit on cultists.)

 

//

 

Noise Marines are hedonistic sensationalists in all respects. Noise Marines love sonic weapons and the screams of the dying, but they also love visual noise. The crazy colour schemes, bulging augmented optics, Photon Flash Flares, lighting things up and watching them explode. They love hurting people, and they love getting hurt.

 

Noise Marines do drugs - they do lots of drugs.

 

Noise Marines use Sonic Weapons, yes. They also use swords, Bolt Pistols, etc. etc. I think it's Black Crusade: Tome of Excess that even talks about how Noise Marines really love Plasma weapons, because it's fun when they overheat in your hands and burn the hell out of you.

 

The Emperor's Children being "the Noise Marine army" is not restrictive - it's focussing. Same with the Death Guard being "the Plague Marine army", World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army", and Thousand Sons being "the Tzeentchian Sorcerer (plus their thralls) army". 

(Gosh. The Black Library really did a number on the humble Noise Marine.)

 

//

 

And for what it's worth, the description of the Emperor's Children in WH40k: The Ultimate Guide (releasing in under a fortnight):

 

"Ostentatious and outrageous, driven to extremes by their patron God, the Emperor's Children combine armor with punk, glam rock, and heavy metal stylings. Chains, studs, and leering faces, combined with an eye-catching colour scheme, define the sons of Fulgrim."

 

 

I mean, currently it precludes them from being anything but all berserker all the time. GW "focused" them into a stereotype, borderline meme.

 

You're right though, noise marines do all of those things.... but so do all Emperors Children. Yet not all Emperor's Children need festooning with speakers and sonic weapons.

 

There is a line there and it's a point of pedantry that's actually fairly important when it comes to the expectations and scope of the unit. You expect noise Marines to be, well, noise oriented.

 

The description quoted from that book however is spot on and would apply to any member of that legion, not just a noise marine.

[LSM]

6 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

Deathshroud for example are not in the least bit about plague. They are took on Nurgle's endurance, but they are still the same resolute and stoic bodyguards and warriors they always were... If anything, the Deathguard show that your monogod legion doesn't need to be all derivatives of the same tired concept...

 

"Deathshroud Terminators are swollen with the fell powers of their diseased patron. With every swing of their huge scythes they decapitate and disembowel their foes, their speed belied by their bloated mass. They fight in ominous silence, embodying the inevitable onset of their enemies’ death."

 

They come armed with Manreapers and Plaguespurt Gauntlets.

 

Visually, the 40k version has gained the swollen belly plates, the parasitic tentacles and mouths, the pitted and rotting armour, the petrified wood/bone growths, and they are hosts to hives of plague flies.

 

We may just be operating under fundamentally different perspectives, but to me they seem pretty "Plague Marine".

[StrangerOrders]

13 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

"Deathshroud Terminators are swollen with the fell powers of their diseased patron. With every swing of their huge scythes they decapitate and disembowel their foes, their speed belied by their bloated mass. They fight in ominous silence, embodying the inevitable onset of their enemies’ death."

 

They come armed with Manreapers and Plaguespurt Gauntlets.

 

Visually, the 40k version has gained the swollen belly plates, the parasitic tentacles and mouths, the pitted and rotting armour, the petrified wood/bone growths, and they are hosts to hives of plague flies.

 

We may just be operating under fundamentally different perspectives, but to me they seem pretty "Plague Marine".

I think we are indeed operating on different paradigms.

 

To me, noise is a motif, kind of like a preference for melee. An expression of the core idea of 'excess'.

 

Same thing with the DG or the TS or the WE. I see ideas of 'resilience', 'magic' or 'rage'.

 

I see the Noise Marines as being a very particular aesthetic. The pursuit of glam rock, sensorybody horror and musical instruments to the same degree as everything about Plague Marines needing to be about disease or everyone in the TS being needlessly range-focused.

 

We never, for example, saw something like the Khenetai for the Thousand Sons. Think essentially an elite squad of magical swordsmen dual-wielding swords and using a sort of battle meditation to enhance each other (with Anubis imagery on top!). But GW decided every squad needed to be a Sorceror + Rubric squad and erased any further nuance in favour of chasing that specific aesthetic.

 

Which is to say, flanderized to a certain degree.

 

To me, Deathguard are expressions of endurance and quiet vigilance, it comes across in their posing and design. They are Deathguard but they are also distinct from the language of 'spreading' that is otherwise endemic with DG. They are not covered in warcrimes and their offensive output is about the fact they are big scary men with big and scary scythes.

 

They stand out from the 'cackling sick man is going to throw sick stuff at you from a safe range'.

 

The World Eaters and TS don't have that, everything they have is a derivative of a very samey archetype.

 

To me, having a sonic weapon on every EC (like shriekers from 30k) does not make everyone a Noise Marine. Having their entire identity be about it would be.

 

A palatine is about their skill, their fancy weapon and their hubris, for example. The fact many got things like Shriekers doesn't detract from that or make that their primary obsession. 

 

Again, probably different paradigms but I hope that makes sense.

Edited October 15 by StrangerOrders

[Indy Techwisp]

Emperor's Children are pretty much the only Cult Marine faction to not be flanderised by the lore, no doubt helped by it taking so long for GW to do anything with them.

 

The same process which has stripped down the variety of TS, WE and DG have only made it clearer that EC are not all Speaker Festooned Scream Machines.

[Mogger351]

7 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

I think we are indeed operating on different paradigms.

 

To me, noise is a motif, kind of like a preference for melee. An expression of the core idea of 'excess'.

 

Same thing with the DG or the TS or the WE. I see ideas of 'resilience', 'magic' or 'rage'.

 

I see the Noise Marines as being a very particular aesthetic. The pursuit of glam rock, sensorybody horror and musical instruments to the same degree as everything about Plague Marines needing to be about disease or everyone in the TS being needlessly range-focused.

 

We never, for example, saw something like the Khenetai for the Thousand Sons. Think essentially an elite squad of magical swordsmen dual-wielding swords and using a sort of battle meditation to enhance each other (with Anubis imagery on top!). But GW decided every squad needed to be a Sorceror + Rubric squad and erased any further nuance in favour of chasing that specific aesthetic.

 

Which is to say, flanderized to a certain degree.

 

To me, Deathguard are expressions of endurance and quiet vigilance, it comes across in their posing and design. They are Deathguard but they are also distinct from the language of 'spreading' that is otherwise endemic with DG. They are not covered in warcrimes and their offensive output is about the fact they are big scary men with big and scary scythes.

 

They stand out from the 'cackling sick man is going to throw sick stuff at you from a safe range'.

 

The World Eaters and TS don't have that, everything they have is a derivative of a very samey archetype.

 

To me, having a sonic weapon on every EC (like shriekers from 30k) does not make everyone a Noise Marine. Having their entire identity be about it would be.

 

A palatine is about their skill, their fancy weapon and their hubris, for example. The fact many got things like Shriekers doesn't detract from that or make that their primary obsession. 

 

Again, probably different paradigms but I hope that makes sense.

Well worded, thank you.

[StrangerOrders]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

Emperor's Children are pretty much the only Cult Marine faction to not be flanderised by the lore, no doubt helped by it taking so long for GW to do anything with them.

 

The same process which has stripped down the variety of TS, WE and DG have only made it clearer that EC are not all Speaker Festooned Scream Machines.

Imagine if the TS got a 40k version of the Sorceror Dreadnought or if they made Khenetai Blademasters or the Hidden ones!

 

There is so much potential for the TS lol.

 

Still happy the EC might be keeping a more nuanced identity though!

[Redcomet]

I have recently become a bit obsessed with EC, so this sounds fabulous. Very glad that it won’t be noise marines all the time every time.

[LSM]

27 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

To me, Deathguard are expressions of endurance and quiet vigilance, it comes across in their posing and design. They are Deathguard but they are also distinct from the language of 'spreading' that is otherwise endemic with DG. They are not covered in warcrimes and their offensive output is about the fact they are big scary men with big and scary scythes.

 

They stand out from the 'cackling sick man is going to throw sick stuff at you from a safe range'.

 

The World Eaters and TS don't have that, everything they have is a derivative of a very samey archetype.

 

Deathshroud have Plague Flies coming out of their backs and Plaguespurters mounted on their wrists. They aren't cackling, but they are sick men throwing sick stuff at you... and then also scything ye in twain. ("I'm cut in half pretty bad, Commissar!")

 

Plague Marines, as an archetype, to me were always "close in trench sweepers". They don't sit back and shoot; they slowly get stuck in, their enemies unable to bring them down before they can close, killing with Bolter and Plague Knife.

 

The World Eaters and Thousand Sons don't have even Deathshroud Bodyguard levels of divergence... but Thousand Sons have two non-character kits, World Eaters four.

 

GW has been too narrowly focussed. But having a focus isn't the problem, being too narrow is. Thousand Sons seem like they're about to get their Battle Automata brought forward ten thousand years. Their focus wasn't preventing that from happening before now, nor are Battle Automata outside of their focus on Sorcerers and their Thralls.

 

Thousand Sons Sorceror Dreadnoughts or Khenetai Blade Cabals (who fight so well because they're all psychically linked to one another) also don't fall outside of the Thousand Sons' current focus, in my opinion.

Edited October 15 by LSM

[Mogger351]

18 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

Deathshroud have Plague Flies coming out of their backs and Plaguespurters mounted on their wrists. They aren't cackling, but they are sick men throwing sick stuff at you... and then also scything ye in twain. ("I'm cut in half pretty bad, Commissar!")

 

Plague Marines, as an archetype, to me were always "close in trench sweepers". They don't sit back and shoot; they slowly get stuck in, their enemies unable to bring them down before they can close, killing with Bolter and Plague Knife.

 

The World Eaters and Thousand Sons don't have even Deathshroud Bodyguard levels of divergence... but Thousand Sons have two non-character kits, World Eaters four.

 

GW has been too narrowly focussed. But having a focus isn't the problem, being too narrow is. Thousand Sons seem like they're about to get their Battle Automata brought forward ten thousand years. Their focus wasn't preventing that from happening before now, nor are Battle Automata outside of their focus on Sorcerers and their Thralls.

 

Thousand Sons Sorceror Dreadnoughts or Khenetai Blade Cabals (who fight so well because they're all psychically linked to one another) also don't fall outside of the Thousand Sons' current focus, in my opinion.

I can put a finger on it.

 

You seem unable to discern Plague Marine from death guard, berzerker from World Eaters, rubrics+psyker from thousand sons (although this one less so) and finally noise marine from emperors children.

 

One of the interesting elements of the Red Angel novel of the assembling world eaters legion is the fact that a lot of them aren't khorne berzerkers. They're renegades and lost souls who enjoy violence. They use bolters, heavy weapons, snipe people. They do this with the intent to be inducted and have the nails fitted.

[StrangerOrders]

That all being said, one thing I am let down by with the rumour of us being a TS/WE as opposed to DG is the lack of an awesome siege engine. Which would have fit Noise Marines pretty well.

 

Sidenote: Isn't it funny how Noise Marines have never been great against vehicles in the game iirc despite the lore having literally melt tanks and even kill titans when enough are screaming in unison?

 

I would have loved a Doof Warrior style 'Noise Marine on an Amp Stage pulled by motorcycles' vehicle. Something to scream a tank to pieces (which we have lore for).

 

Granted alot of the cult marines lack fairly core extensions of their concept.

 

There is not a good reason for WE to not have Jump Units, nor for TS to not have a Heavy Weapon Unit. Those are obvious things for Berserkers or Rubrics. 

Edited October 15 by StrangerOrders