EC Rumours

[Indy Techwisp]

@LSM

The thing is, EC haven't had many many years of being pigeon-holed into a Legion stereotype, which is why we're even able to have this discussion now.

T-Sons became "The Rubric Guys" at pretty much the same time we started getting proper Lore for the faction, so our model range essentially defined our lore (until the 30k team decided to throw us a bone in HH)

World Eaters have always been "The Berserker Guys", but as the lore for Chaos Marines has progressed the abilities of said Berserkers have regressed. No Flamers, no shooty guys, just Chainaxes a and the occasionally a Pistol that makes you explode.

Deathguard, being both almost fully defined from the word go and an edition launch faction, have actually had a nice wide take on their unit types. They are clearly still "Plague Marines", but the DG range has been allowed to experiment with what that actually means on a unit by unit basis.

 

All this is to say, the "pigeon-hole" that EC finds themselves in is that of a surprisingly... normal CSM faction.

The excessive hedonism and/or perfectionism proliferates the Legion, however for the most part the EC are described as being kinda just normal Legionnaires with a few clear "Noise Marines/Kakaphoni" scattered about, simply because up until this very moment "Normal Legionnaires" made up the majority of your expected EC army.

 

This is made even clearer with how other characters react to Cult Marines in the BL books. Characters encountering Thousand Sons, World Eaters or Deathguard use the Legion's name and the Cult Marine term interchangeably, since they're a ubiquitous part of the army, yet characters encountering Emperor's Children usually make a clear attempt to differentiate the Emperor's Children Marine with his Bolter and Chainsword from the Noise Marine liquefying people with concentrated Hardbass.

[techsoldaten]

Long time ago, I bought an Emperor's Children army. Looked to be circa 2nd edition. It consisted of:

 

- Chaos Lord with Doom Siren

- 30+ Noise Marines with Sonic Weapons

- Dreadnought with Sonic Blasters

- Several Rhinos

- Daemonettes

- Daemonettes on Seekers

- Goat-headed Keeper of Secrets with massive claws

 

The army was visually striking and the mix of troops and daemons seemed so appropriate to Slaanesh. Tons of short-to-mid range shooting with fast attack / melee infantry to tie up opponents. Never played against it, but thought it would be fun to run.

 

While I'm certain GW will do their best, there's lots to love in what's already come before. I hope they don't take it in too different a direction.

[Ahzek451]

Here to stir the pot: 

Worry not, the small release of about 5 units that the other god legions received will be about the same for EC. BUT....GW will attempt to make it seem bigger than it is by splitting up the daemon codex and adding each god daemons to each legion. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

That all being said, one thing I am let down by with the rumour of us being a TS/WE as opposed to DG is the lack of an awesome siege engine. Which would have fit Noise Marines pretty well.

 

Sidenote: Isn't it funny how Noise Marines have never been great against vehicles in the game iirc despite the lore having literally melt tanks and even kill titans when enough are screaming in unison?

 

I would have loved a Doof Warrior style 'Noise Marine on an Amp Stage pulled by motorcycles' vehicle. Something to scream a tank to pieces (which we have lore for).

 

Granted alot of the cult marines lack fairly core extensions of their concept.

 

There is not a good reason for WE to not have Jump Units, nor for TS to not have a Heavy Weapon Unit. Those are obvious things for Berserkers or Rubrics. 

Remember, GW now mostly justifies a unit entry based on models. That's why World Eaters have no special Terminators (which is funny since there's basically nothing that would make Blightlords special if you just equipped all your Terminators with Power Weapons) and apparently you're only a Chaos Lord if you're riding a Juggernaut. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

If Fulgrim is just a plastic version more or less of the Forgeworld one that would be great. My concern is that they try to outdo that model and have gone over the top. Time will tell. 

[Ahzek451]

22 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

If Fulgrim is just a plastic version more or less of the Forgeworld one that would be great. My concern is that they try to outdo that model and have gone over the top. Time will tell. 

It will come with a serpentine paint brush to navigate all the twists and turns required to get at all the dressings and tail. 

[Nephaston]

24 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Remember, GW now mostly justifies a unit entry based on models. That's why World Eaters have no special Terminators (which is funny since there's basically nothing that would make Blightlords special if you just equipped all your Terminators with Power Weapons) and apparently you're only a Chaos Lord if you're riding a Juggernaut. 

Not to mention that Typhus is/used to be a Lord of Contagion, Ahriman is/was an Exalted Sorcerer, But Khârn isn't even a Lord nor do World Eaters have a "Unique Character but as a generic Unit" character, unless Khârn is supposed to be a Master of Executions, which is a CSM leftover. At least with EC the rumour of a generic HQ I'm hopeful it is a "Lucius but generic" type unit, though I would also want them to have the same access that DG have like regular Lords and Sorcerers.

[Tokugawa]

EC is well known for swordsmanship. If EC would not receive an "expert duelist" type model and still use the default CSM master of execution model, it would look quite awkward.

[LSM]

The Emperor's Children even have the universe's greatest duellist, Lucius the Eternal!

 

Who begins duelling his opponents by releasing the cacophony of the Armour of Shrieking Souls, a sonic crescendo which ruptures eardrums and pulverises bones. Then (depending on the edition) he emits a piercing Warp Scream, tearing at the very fabric of reality to disorientate his opponent.

 

Stomping forward deftly on his hooves, the sentient daemon whip that's forever merged into his right arm cruelly lashes out, its barbed hooks and sinuous coils (depending on the edition) absorbing and amplifying nearby terror or ensnaring and tangling his opponent.

 

Laughing maniacally, tongue lolling so far out Gene Simmons is blushing, he hits the go button on his combat drug dispensers, flooding his body with all the galaxy's most heinous, deadly, and exotic stimulants, strength boosters, and analeptics.

 

If you are an exciting foe, he'll sadistically blitz you with a staggering number of savage attacks. If you're a gretchin, he'll get bored and sad and maybe deign to kill you I guess but seriously what's even the point...

 

If you manage to land a hit on him (depending on the edition) the pain will only fuel him to even more attacks, or cause his armour to (presumably) shriek so forcefully that it wounds those nearby. He might also pause the duel, giddy at the thought of someone able to actually hurt him, and enquire as to who you even are. 

 

If you actually manage to kill the masochist, he takes so much pleasure from his own agonising death that Slaanesh is like "get a load of this psycho!" and allows Lucius to worm his way into the victor through any (depending on edition) triumph/satisfaction/pleasure they have taken from the kill. Slowly, over the next few weeks or (depending on the edition) instantly, Lucius will take possession and his killer will end up just another soul trapped in his armour, whose torment and anguish will be harnessed and unleashed upon his foes.

 

Y'know. An expert duellist.

 

//

 

Let's have a look at those Fabius Bile trilogy Emperor's Children marines:

 

Edited October 16 by LSM

[HeadlessCross]

On 10/16/2024 at 2:39 AM, LSM said:

The Emperor's Children even have the universe's greatest duellist, Lucius the Eternal!

 

Who begins duelling his opponents by releasing the cacophony of the Armour of Shrieking Souls, a sonic crescendo which ruptures eardrums and pulverises bones. Then (depending on the edition) he emits a piercing Warp Scream, tearing at the very fabric of reality to disorientate his opponent.

 

Stomping forward deftly on his hooves, the sentient daemon whip that's forever merged into his right arm cruelly lashes out, its barbed hooks and sinuous coils (depending on the edition) absorbing and amplifying nearby terror or ensnaring and tangling his opponent.

 

Laughing maniacally, tongue lolling so far out Gene Simmons is blushing, he hits the go button on his combat drug dispensers, flooding his body with all the galaxy's most heinous, deadly, and exotic stimulants, strength boosters, and analeptics.

 

If you are an exciting foe, he'll sadistically blitz you with a staggering number of savage attacks. If you're a gretchin, he'll get bored and sad and maybe deign to kill you I guess but seriously what's even the point...

 

If you manage to land a hit on him (depending on the edition) the pain will only fuel him to even more attacks, or cause his armour to (presumably) shriek so forcefully that it wounds those nearby. He might also pause the duel, giddy at the thought of someone able to actually hurt him, and enquire as to who you even are. 

 

If you actually manage to kill the masochist, he takes so much pleasure from his own agonising death that Slaanesh is like "get a load of this psycho!" and allows Lucius to worm his way into the victor through any (depending on edition) triumph/satisfaction/pleasure they have taken from the kill. Slowly, over the next few weeks or (depending on the edition) instantly, Lucius will take possession and his killer will end up just another soul trapped in his armour, whose torment and anguish will be harnessed and unleashed upon his foes.

 

Y'know. An expert duellist.

 

//

 

Let's have a look at those Fabius Bile trilogy Emperor's Children marines:

 

I mean if I kept coming back from the dead after losing at a duel, I'd hope I get slightly better each time.

 

On 10/15/2024 at 10:16 PM, Nephaston said:

Not to mention that Typhus is/used to be a Lord of Contagion, Ahriman is/was an Exalted Sorcerer, But Khârn isn't even a Lord nor do World Eaters have a "Unique Character but as a generic Unit" character, unless Khârn is supposed to be a Master of Executions, which is a CSM leftover. At least with EC the rumour of a generic HQ I'm hopeful it is a "Lucius but generic" type unit, though I would also want them to have the same access that DG have like regular Lords and Sorcerers.

But frankly, Death Guard's access to regular Lords/Sorcerers is odd in terms of rules design. There's really no design space for Wizard On Foot and Wizard On Foot But He's Sicker I Guess.

 

This is why it was a mistake to move the Cult Legions to their own codices. I'm still mad that Death Guard lost as many units as they did just to get an additional Terminator unit and two new Daemon engines. Yeah the Bloat Drone and Crawler are neat (and quite frankly all CSM armies should have a piece of artillery like that anyway), but the Blight Hauler is literally just a Helbrute with the Multi-Melta and ML but with a different bespoke rule. They're even almost the same exact size!

[Orion]

12 hours ago, LSM said:

 

 

(Personally, I adore the depiction of Noise Marines in the Fabius Bile books, I just wish they had been called something else. "Choirmasters" or something.)

 

"Legion Kakophoni"?

I think that's a neat name.

[Nephaston]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

This is why it was a mistake to move the Cult Legions to their own codices

I agree on the rules front, but in the model department it was an absolute win., even if they managed to miss some obvious ones like Red Butchers or Rubric Dreadnoughts.

[LSM]

20 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

I can put a finger on it.

 

You seem unable to discern Plague Marine from death guard, berzerker from World Eaters, rubrics+psyker from thousand sons (although this one less so) and finally noise marine from emperors children.

 

One of the interesting elements of the Red Angel novel of the assembling world eaters legion is the fact that a lot of them aren't khorne berzerkers. They're renegades and lost souls who enjoy violence. They use bolters, heavy weapons, snipe people. They do this with the intent to be inducted and have the nails fitted.

 

I... don't particularly like that phrasing. The way that I'd say it is, well: actually, the discussion with StrangeOrders highlights it.

 

They feel that Deathshroud Bodyguard are pretty divorced from "being Plague Marine", whereas to me Deathshroud Bodyguard fit into "the Plague Marine army" motifs as snuggly as a Nurgling in your viscera. Deathshroud are not literally the datasheet "Plague Marine", or even "Plague Marine Terminators", but they are Plague Marines - wielding Plaguespurters, hosts to Plague Flies, with all the visual motifs I associate with Plague Marines (belly plates, pitted and rotten armour, petrified wood/bones breaking through, Chaos-Undeaded-ness, parasitic tentacles/mouths, etc.).

 

Likewise, I consider Thousand Sons to be "the Tzeentchian Sorcerer (and thralls) army". The suggestion of Khenetai Blade Cabals is something that I've heard before and really like. (I even have a sort-of-one I made to be a Tzeentch Legionary Kill Team's Shrivetalon.*) I don't think that they'd fall outside of that focus - they're psychically linked warriors led by a psychic blade master, wielding Force-Khopesh, and (historically) part of the Order of the Jackal. They're psychic, they're controlling, they're space-Egyptian coded.

 

So it's not that I'm unable to discern a Plague Marine from the Death Guard, but that - to me - the core concept of the Cult Legions was "let's take that god's Cult Troops and use their deal to spin out an entire army". The whole army doesn't need to be literally just Plague Marines, but everything should be touching base with that core Plague Marine concept.

 

//

 

The World Eaters are "the Khorne Berzerker army" to me. That does not mean - to me - that they are nothing but Khorne Berzerkers. What would a Berzerker Terminator look like? How about individuals get arrested in de-powered suits of TDA and only get powered up to be unleashed into battle? We'll call them Red Butchers. Oh, they all have the Butcher's Nails - who does the surgery for that? Let's make Butcher Surgeons be kicking around the Legion. Khorne likes to give his Berzerker champions Juggernauts - daemon machines of living metal and burning blood - and utilise giant berzerker warmachines that house imprisoned Blood Thirsters and are powered by the boiling blood of murderers... they really should have custom Warpsmiths who double as (non-psyker) Masters of Possession, eh? That'd fit - they can also be the ones who hammer all those Bloodletters into the Eightbound. And they can release alongside a plastic Brass Scorpion.

 

I don't like Jakhals - I think they're boring. Fanatical, stem-pumped, frenzied guys with chainblades but not in power armour. Whoopee. That's a boring extrapolation from being "the Khorne Berzerker army", a flanderisation. When the WE leak came out, and the name Jakhal was put forward, the thing my mind ran to was a a sort of "opportunistic scavenger" (y'know, like a jackal) - a unit of cultists who followed in the wake of the 'Berzerkers to collect the blood and skulls of the slain while their Astartes masters pushed on for fresh things to kill. And then the reveal happened, and no... Jakhals are just wee 'Zerks. 

 

So I don't like Jakhals. But that's not the fault of World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army", it's a result of nobody doing anything interesting with "the Khorne Berzerker army".

 

//

 

Which brings me around to the point of the thread: I'd like Emperor's Children to be realised as "the Noise Marine army". That doesn't mean I don't want melee units, but I'd rather have dudes with massive Doom Sirens or extravagant Combat Drug Dispenser arrays than have "just expert duellists".

 

Which is - again - not to say I don't want duellists. But... if an Emperor's Children master duellist lines up with some other master duellist, and that enemy can't handle fighting while being buffeted by waves of sound, well that's their failing. If they can't handle a sentient whip tying their shoelaces together in the middle of a riposte, that's their failing. If they can't handle Photon Flash Flares being shot into their face as they try to parry, that's their failing. If they can't handle getting pinched by the crab claws at the end of a second set of arms, that's their failing. If they think being juiced to the gills on [ahem] Olympian levels of who-knows-what is "cheating", that's their failing. Do you even know how to duel, bro? A master duellist of the Emperor's Children pursues the perfection of the art, and they're going to inject, graft, and mutate everything under the sun to achieve it.

 

Let it be loud.

*

Spoiler

Still trying to decide on a pre-Heresy red and gold scheme, or a 3rd edition pre-Heresy red and silver scheme, or an Adrian Smith green and gold... I've at least primed him since this picture!

 

 

[StrangerOrders]

57 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

I... don't particularly like that phrasing. The way that I'd say it is, well: actually, the discussion with StrangeOrders highlights it.

 

They feel that Deathshroud Bodyguard are pretty divorced from "being Plague Marine", whereas to me Deathshroud Bodyguard fit into "the Plague Marine army" motifs as snuggly as a Nurgling in your viscera. Deathshroud are not literally the datasheet "Plague Marine", or even "Plague Marine Terminators", but they are Plague Marines - wielding Plaguespurters, hosts to Plague Flies, with all the visual motifs I associate with Plague Marines (belly plates, pitted and rotten armour, petrified wood/bones breaking through, Chaos-Undeaded-ness, parasitic tentacles/mouths, etc.).

 

Likewise, I consider Thousand Sons to be "the Tzeentchian Sorcerer (and thralls) army". The suggestion of Khenetai Blade Cabals is something that I've heard before and really like. (I even have a sort-of-one I made to be a Tzeentch Legionary Kill Team's Shrivetalon.*) I don't think that they'd fall outside of that focus - they're psychically linked warriors led by a psychic blade master, wielding Force-Khopesh, and (historically) part of the Order of the Jackal. They're psychic, they're controlling, they're space-Egyptian coded.

 

So it's not that I'm unable to discern a Plague Marine from the Death Guard, but that - to me - the core concept of the Cult Legions was "let's take that god's Cult Troops and use their deal to spin out an entire army". The whole army doesn't need to be literally just Plague Marines, but everything should be touching base with that core Plague Marine concept.

 

//

 

The World Eaters are "the Khorne Berzerker army" to me. That does not mean - to me - that they are nothing but Khorne Berzerkers. What would a Berzerker Terminator look like? How about individuals get arrested in de-powered suits of TDA and only get powered up to be unleashed into battle? We'll call them Red Butchers. Oh, they all have the Butcher's Nails - who does the surgery for that? Let's make Butcher Surgeons be kicking around the Legion. Khorne likes to give his Berzerker champions Juggernauts - daemon machines of living metal and burning blood - and utilise giant berzerker warmachines that house imprisoned Blood Thirsters and are powered by the boiling blood of murderers... they really should have custom Warpsmiths who double as (non-psyker) Masters of Possession, eh? That'd fit - they can also be the ones who hammer all those Bloodletters into the Eightbound. And they can release alongside a plastic Brass Scorpion.

 

I don't like Jakhals - I think they're boring. Fanatical, stem-pumped, frenzied guys with chainblades but not in power armour. Whoopee. That's a boring extrapolation from being "the Khorne Berzerker army", a flanderisation. When the WE leak came out, and the name Jakhal was put forward, the thing my mind ran to was a a sort of "opportunistic scavenger" (y'know, like a jackal) - a unit of cultists who followed in the wake of the 'Berzerkers to collect the blood and skulls of the slain while their Astartes masters pushed on for fresh things to kill. And then the reveal happened, and no... Jakhals are just wee 'Zerks. 

 

So I don't like Jakhals. But that's not the fault of World Eaters being "the Khorne Berzerker army", it's a result of nobody doing anything interesting with "the Khorne Berzerker army".

 

//

 

Which brings me around to the point of the thread: I'd like Emperor's Children to be realised as "the Noise Marine army". That doesn't mean I don't want melee units, but I'd rather have dudes with massive Doom Sirens or extravagant Combat Drug Dispenser arrays than have "just expert duellists".

 

Which is - again - not to say I don't want duellists. But... if an Emperor's Children master duellist lines up with some other master duellist, and that enemy can't handle fighting while being buffeted by waves of sound, well that's their failing. If they can't handle a sentient whip tying their shoelaces together in the middle of a riposte, that's their failing. If they can't handle Photon Flash Flares being shot into their face as they try to parry, that's their failing. If they can't handle getting pinched by the crab claws at the end of a second set of arms, that's their failing. If they think being juiced to the gills on [ahem] Olympian levels of who-knows-what is "cheating", that's their failing. Do you even know how to duel, bro? A master duellist of the Emperor's Children pursues the perfection of the art, and they're going to inject, graft, and mutate everything under the sun to achieve it.

 

Let it be loud.

*

  Reveal hidden contents

Still trying to decide on a pre-Heresy red and gold scheme, or a 3rd edition pre-Heresy red and silver scheme, or an Adrian Smith green and gold... I've at least primed him since this picture!

 

 

As much as we seem to be on different pages in terms of the Noise Marine aspect, we align in that I do not think it would be particularly reasonable to argue for the exclusion of extensive drugs on any EC kit.

 

In fact, drugs and modification, along with fallen nobility and burnout, are much more central to how I've always seen EC than Noise Marines. Granted this might be to my love of them stemming more from books than from codexes.

 

To that end, I have yet to read of any EC book, even the older stuff (quite the opposite) where an EC CSM without some level of drug addiction was anything other than singular. And more than a little weird for that matter.

 

And again, to go back to the 30k example, one of the nice things about how EC play conceptually is that they ARE 100% skilled and sublime duelists. They are also filthy cheaters that will take any advantage they can get.

 

They aren't necessarily modeled but almost every distinctive EC unit can take some degree of sonic modification. They are just not what folks think of in terms of the Noise Marine 'design'.

 

Again, it stirs into our point of contention but I am not opposed to the prevalence of 'touches' of noise weapons, I just dislike the idea of my entire army being a flashback to band class (I want HRE/Austrian history class!). 

 

The irony of Eidolon who is both the first Noise Marine and also everything cool/interesting about the EC's other facets in (imo) a much more competent execution than Lucius, being absent from this release is irksome is another matter entirely.

 

Hot take incidentally: I fear that I am going to offend most of our dreadnought RT-era brothers and say I actually find Lucius an irksome facet of the legion due to him being both the centerpiece non-Primarch character and being characterized by losing. Constantly. He dimishes the fact that the EC are supposed to actually have a reasonable (if insufficient) skill level to back up their hubris. Eidolon better embodies that by the simple fact that he is a vain idiot but he is largely a competent vain idiot. Lucius on the other hand feels like a side character that somehow ended up on center stage.

 

Those faces aren't trophies, their volume is indicative to how often the doofus loses. The man is literally walking around with every L he has taken stappled to his body.

 

The drugs are not optional though, I see them as essential as a grotesque amount of gold/silver trim to the EC. 

Edited October 16 by StrangerOrders

[Evil Eye]

I kinda-sorta agree with the sentiment that splitting the Cult legions into their own books wasn't the best idea ever, but then again to really do Chaos justice, you'd ideally want one absolutely gargantuan book with everything in it, along with the rules for the cult legions and their unique units. Think the legendary 3.5 edition Codex but with even more content.

[brother_b]

I’m super intrigued with the idea of this army. I think the Slaanesh demons are some of the best models available. I hope the look and style of those models and the art of the EC translate inform the aesthetic of the new release.
 

Noise Marines are a weird idea to me, they always have been. The idea of sonic attacks is just so left field I love it. I can’t wait to see what iteration the models take and if they update them or go full rock and roll.

 

I’ve been contemplating another army and Krieg is at the forefront, but if this is a small release and they have a nice box set, I may have to grab it.

[LSM]

30 minutes ago, StrangerOrders said:

...a much more competent execution than Lucius, being absent from this release is irksome is another matter entirely.

 

Hot take incidentally: I fear that I am going to offend most of our dreadnought RT-era brothers and say I actually find Lucius an irksome facet of the legion due to him being both the centerpiece non-Primarch character and being characterized by losing. Constantly. He dimishes the fact that the EC are supposed to actually have a reasonable (if insufficient) skill level to back up their hubris. Eidolon better embodies that by the simple fact that he is a vain idiot but he is largely a competent vain idiot. Lucius on the other hand feels like a side character that somehow ended up on center stage.

 

Those faces aren't trophies, their volume is indicative to how often the doofus loses. The man is literally walking around with every L he has taken stappled to his body...

 

In my opinion, Lucius has suffered mightily at the hands of the retcons that the Black Library has injected. In my opinion, they can be threaded together, but it's not natural, and it hasn't been done well.

 

Let's go back to his original lore. He was a Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children (one of roughly thirty), a scion of Chemos and having obtained myriad scars over "centuries of battle" - meaning that he must have been amongst the Legion's most veteran and lauded warriors. He was a master of assault actions - battles where you get kicked around and pick up knocks. He started to associate the pain with success, and after awhile just started pursuing the pain for its own sake. He began cutting deep gooves into his flesh, to link all of his body's scars, which his peers took for piety. But in truth, he had become a psychotic sadomasochist.

 

When the Legion falls to Slaanesh, he basically gets to look around and say "bout time you all joined me". In a savage gladiatorial match with a fellow Lord Commander, Cyrius, he is killed agonisingly. And... rapture. Dying in extreme personal combat is a transcendental pleasure for him - la petite mort so exquisite, so breathtaking, that Slaanesh takes notice. How can the Lord of Pleasure let such a being slip from the galaxy? What a waste. And so, using the moment of triumph taken by Cyrius in his victory, Slaanesh contrives for Lucius to possess him.

 

Now he stalks the galaxy as an arrogant and sadistic slaughterer who can never truly be killed. He leads his warband with unnatural charisma, welcoming death with as much relish as he inflicts it on others.

 

//

 

And then, Horus Rising. Lucius is a Captain, and a pretty junior and immature seeming one at that, at the outbreak of the Heresy Wars. Eidolon now seems like the only Lord Commander (though later books would show others, and Eidolon would be restyled the Lord Commander Primus). Lucius has a perfect face, which gets blemished by Loken. His pride is aggrieved, until a psychotic painter who cuts herself shows him that scars can be beautiful. He begins to self-mutilate, and gloats to others about his hideous appearance.

 

Because that's what it is now - not an act of masochism, but an act of pride.

 

//

 

His 2007 codex lore is a straight reprint of his original lore. In the 2012 codex they make some changes though: they remove him being a Lord Commander, remove his scarring being seen as piety pre-Heresy, and remove the reference to his death being a moment of transcendental, masochistic pleasure (ie. the entire reason for his resurrections). They also remove reference to his sadism, and change the word "triumph" to "satisfaction" in the description of how he takes over his killers (which, whatever).

 

They add that he descended into madness due to whispers only he could hear driving him to more extreme acts, as well as stating that he's obsessed with being the perfect swordsman.

 

//

 

It's important to note that in his original appearance, he had a Weapon Skill of 5. That's the same as Ahriman. The same as a generic Chaos Lord. Abaddon had a WS of 6, Khârn and Keepers of Secret 7, Bloodthirsters 9.

 

He was a great one-on-one duellist, on the tabletop. But it was because of all his abilities, his tricks and quirks. He wasn't "super skilled", he wasn't "a perfect swordman". He was a psychotic sadomasochist that got excited by the thought that someone else might be good enough to hurt him. (And that is portrayed in Graham McNeill's Angel Exterminatus, alongside the "perfect swordsman" stuff, but other authors seem to have missed that boat.)

 

//

 

And like I said, I think you can fold the Horus Heresy "duellist duellist duellist" take into the original "universe's ultimate sadomasochist" core... except the dying and resurrecting thing is tricky. To make sense, it hinges on his sadomasochism. It needs you to highlight that being killed is something that he likes. When you remove that, it... well, it's like you say. He comes across as some chump who fails constantly.

 

As conceived, being killed in crazy duels isn't failure. It's the ultimate pleasure - it's what he lives for.

[StrangerOrders]

24 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

In my opinion, Lucius has suffered mightily at the hands of the retcons that the Black Library has injected. In my opinion, they can be threaded together, but it's not natural, and it hasn't been done well.

 

Let's go back to his original lore. He was a Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children (one of roughly thirty), a scion of Chemos and having obtained myriad scars over "centuries of battle" - meaning that he must have been amongst the Legion's most veteran and lauded warriors. He was a master of assault actions - battles where you get kicked around and pick up knocks. He started to associate the pain with success, and after awhile just started pursuing the pain for its own sake. He began cutting deep gooves into his flesh, to link all of his body's scars, which his peers took for piety. But in truth, he had become a psychotic sadomasochist.

 

When the Legion falls to Slaanesh, he basically gets to look around and say "bout time you all joined me". In a savage gladiatorial match with a fellow Lord Commander, Cyrius, he is killed agonisingly. And... rapture. Dying in extreme personal combat is a transcendental pleasure for him - la petite mort so exquisite, so breathtaking, that Slaanesh takes notice. How can the Lord of Pleasure let such a being slip from the galaxy? What a waste. And so, using the moment of triumph taken by Cyrius in his victory, Slaanesh contrives for Lucius to possess him.

 

Now he stalks the galaxy as an arrogant and sadistic slaughterer who can never truly be killed. He leads his warband with unnatural charisma, welcoming death with as much relish as he inflicts it on others.

 

//

 

And then, Horus Rising. Lucius is a Captain, and a pretty junior and immature seeming one at that, at the outbreak of the Heresy Wars. Eidolon now seems like the only Lord Commander (though later books would show others, and Eidolon would be restyled the Lord Commander Primus). Lucius has a perfect face, which gets blemished by Loken. His pride is aggrieved, until a psychotic painter who cuts herself shows him that scars can be beautiful. He begins to self-mutilate, and gloats to others about his hideous appearance.

 

Because that's what it is now - not an act of masochism, but an act of pride.

 

//

 

His 2007 codex lore is a straight reprint of his original lore. In the 2012 codex they make some changes though: they remove him being a Lord Commander, remove his scarring being seen as piety pre-Heresy, and remove the reference to his death being a moment of transcendental, masochistic pleasure (ie. the entire reason for his resurrections). They also remove reference to his sadism, and change the word "triumph" to "satisfaction" in the description of how he takes over his killers (which, whatever).

 

They add that he descended into madness due to whispers only he could hear driving him to more extreme acts, as well as stating that he's obsessed with being the perfect swordsman.

 

//

 

It's important to note that in his original appearance, he had a Weapon Skill of 5. That's the same as Ahriman. The same as a generic Chaos Lord. Abaddon had a WS of 6, Khârn and Keepers of Secret 7, Bloodthirsters 9.

 

He was a great one-on-one duellist, on the tabletop. But it was because of all his abilities, his tricks and quirks. He wasn't "super skilled", he wasn't "a perfect swordman". He was a psychotic sadomasochist that got excited by the thought that someone else might be good enough to hurt him. (And that is portrayed in Graham McNeill's Angel Exterminatus, alongside the "perfect swordsman" stuff, but other authors seem to have missed that boat.)

 

//

 

And like I said, I think you can fold the Horus Heresy "duellist duellist duellist" take into the original "universe's ultimate sadomasochist" core... except the dying and resurrecting thing is tricky. To make sense, it hinges on his sadomasochism. It needs you to highlight that being killed is something that he likes. When you remove that, it... well, it's like you say. He comes across as some chump who fails constantly.

 

As conceived, being killed in crazy duels isn't failure. It's the ultimate pleasure - it's what he lives for.

I mean, originally yes, your most recent source is a 6th grader ago. The damage is more than a little done and would be hard to fix.

 

I think, as a community, we have a bad habit of acting as sources we speak of in the tone 'just yesterday' is older than quite a number of players.

 

Its why I see the fixation on 3rd and RT as more than a little dangerous for the setting and the game's health.

 

I say that with respect and not to diminish its role at the time. But 'at the time' is operative.

 

Lucius has been portrayed as 'guy who is obsessed with his skill' for a driving-capable person's minimum lifetime... and his results do not show it. Even the most recent showcase of him in animation showed that when a no-name Primaris Judiciar bests him on a surpassingly silly revenge quest. Worse, it identifies him as someone whose only real 'ace' is literally divine protection... that's just kind of pathetic.

 

Worse, it makes the rest of the legion seem considerably sillier and misplaced when we constantly have other characters speaking of how he is the premiere fighter of the legion.

 

He collectively adds to a notion of the EC as a fairly harmless villain in the face of any actual opposition. 

 

Which... just doesn't do it for me, and trying to wipe away decades of development and say it 'wasn't the original intent' feels a bit weak as far as justifications.

 

Especially when they managed to turn Eidolon around from a fairly weak initial showing.

Edited October 16 by StrangerOrders

[LSM]

What is changed can be changed back.

 

Angel Exterminatus blends the two well enough (until his hackneyed death), and that's 2012.

 

Lucius' eternal-ness is a core conceit of his character - in model and rules. It should make sense in his lore. It did make sense in his lore. There's no reason why it can't - just include it again.

 

//

 

You said earlier that it was a bit like people always saying that the Original (Star Wars) Trilogy was better than the Prequels and the Sequels. But... yeah, in a lot of respects they are. Not in every respect, and they all have strengths and weaknesses... I particularly have a much higher opinion of The Phantom Menace than most seem to. But there are things that the OT does better than the PT and the ST, and a lot of the good stuff going forward is going to try to match or improve on that.

 

Lucius was a coherent character.

 

Retcons happened. I like those additions, but they need to be blended in a way that makes sense.

 

I don't think they should delete those additions, and hit a reset, turning him back into what he was in 2002.

 

But if something doesn't make sense now, and it did then, then use that.

 

You don't like Lucius because he's a failure, and he wears his failure around. He doesn't have to be that - there's an existing reason why he's not a failure, and why he wears his victories around. The only thing better than sadistically killing is being masochistically killed.

Edited October 16 by LSM

[StrangerOrders]

45 minutes ago, LSM said:

What is changed can be changed back.

 

Angel Exterminatus blends the two well enough (until his hackneyed death), and that's 2012.

 

Lucius' eternal-ness is a core conceit of his character - in model and rules. It should make sense in his lore. It did make sense in his lore. There's no reason why it can't - just include it again.

 

//

 

You said earlier that it was a bit like people always saying that the Original (Star Wars) Trilogy was better than the Prequels and the Sequels. But... yeah, in a lot of respects they are. Not in every respect, and they all have strengths and weaknesses... I particularly have a much higher opinion of The Phantom Menace than most seem to. But there are things that the OT does better than the PT and the ST, and a lot of the good stuff going forward is going to try to match or improve on that.

 

Lucius was a coherent character.

 

Retcons happened. I like those additions, but they need to be blended in a way that makes sense.

 

I don't think they should delete those additions, and hit a reset, turning him back into what he was in 2002.

 

But if something doesn't make sense now, and it did then, then use that.

 

You don't like Lucius because he's a failure, and he wears his failure around. He doesn't have to be that - there's an existing reason why he's not a failure, and why he wears his victories around. The only thing better than sadistically killing is being masochistically killed.

Was going to say that alot of the STs faults are a direct reaction to trying too hard to ape (and then too hard reject) the OT. Which is actually a good analogy for GW and the communities general approach to 3rd and RT. But I don't want to get too into that one aside from noting it and shaking my fist at 19th century dimwits still conning us into thinking Europe spent a millennia covered in mud (and was also the poorest poor land to ever be poor) and that the rest of the world didn't exist. Because it has has similar energy, even if I would not attribute the actively malicious intent of the 19th century to anyone in this convo.

 

And Angel Exterminatus is the 6th grader, it isn't that recent an example. 

 

My point was that you can't just shred decades and expect it to vanish from people's minds. The reverence and rosey perspective some show for outdated material like RT and 3rd is indicative of that (or the actively poor education regarding the middle ages that still pervades that makes the blood of any historian worth their salt's blood boil due to the 19th centuries needless roman fetishization). 

 

Lucius needs a good update to function but he is ultimately probably the most flander-y of the iconic Cult Marines.

 

You just can't put him next to the likes of Khârn, Ahriman and (Mortarion forgive me) even Typhus and pretend one codex change is going to erase the fact that he just doesn't stack up.

 

And he by extension reflects poorly on the EC as a whole.

 

Eidolon at least has some regality, skill and nuance to him despite being insufferable and awful by design. He also embodies every aspect of the legion far better.

 

If the most we can say about Lucius is that the reinclusion of a particular fetish is the most we can do with his character... we honestly deserve to be the faction whose identity is limited to being the 80s and kind of awful stereotypes.

 

And I guess thats kind of the thing, the other Cult Legions might have been flanderized but at least they have their depth and sense of cultural identity intact. Their ability to have poignant moments.

 

The Fabius novels previously had us be more than that where, and again this will be an unpopular opinion, Fulgrim and Angel Exterminatus just had the faction be boring twits that somehow got worse. Palatine Phoenix was arguably the strongest Primarch book for cleaving to the Fabius model (and is essentially part of the series).

 

I suppose the thing is that I see very little room for nuance left when you steer into Lucius and the Noise Marines hard enough to steer off a cliff. The WE and TS might have been flanderized but they can at least cling to Khârn, Ahriman and their Primarchs being excellent characters.

 

If we run roughshod over the Fabius series-characterization for Noise Marines and 'Lucius but now his frequent losses are intentional'... that does not sound like a faction I would particularly enjoy collecting tbh.

Edited October 16 by StrangerOrders

[Indy Techwisp]

Y'know, being on this forum is the one part of the Internet at present that makes me feel younger than I am if a year that's literally about half my life ago is considered "recent".

[The Yncarne]

No rumors of Doomrider coming back? Surely there’s a lot of lore on him or they can retcon him too, right? 
 

I hope the EC players enjoy all aspects of their army when released. I’ve never really liked the gameplay of my Sons. 

[Jukkiz]

8 hours ago, The Yncarne said:

No rumors of Doomrider coming back? Surely there’s a lot of lore on him or they can retcon him too, right? 
 

I hope the EC players enjoy all aspects of their army when released. I’ve never really liked the gameplay of my Sons. 

that would be nice idea, since chaos bikes are still old as eldar models at this point itseems.

[ZeroWolf]

There's always rumours of chaos bikers getting their redo, it was even on that big leak years back that featured World Eaters and Squats.

 

Maybe we'll get them next edition...maybe.

[Nephaston]

I had a thought; Noise marines are commonly associated with music (or "music"), and a common thing in music and the making of it is a bit of duality; major and minor notes, low and high fidelity, low and high frequency, the latter of which even appears in the rules on some sonic weapons.

 

So what if both the 10-man battleline and the 6-man elite unit are nominally noise marines, but the 10-man is the low/minor one, while the 6-man is the high/major one (and in a way makes them akin to Chosen).

 

Knowing GW I could absolutely see them spliiting weapon profiles to have anti-infantry on the low noisers and anti-elite shooting on the high noisers, while simultaneously ensuring that existing collections don't slot smootly without at least one purchase (unless one conveniently already has 78 noise marines perfectly fitting the new organization, or otherwise wouldn't buy the new stuff anyway like the plastic addicts we are anyway)