EC Rumours

[Evil Eye]

5 minutes ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

Slight correction, it wasn't Eidolon who was the first noise marine. That honor goes to Marius Vairosean. He who picks up the oddly constructed instrument in the Maraviglia, to continue the wonderful notes he was hearing, becoming the first of the Kakophoni, predecessors to the noise marines. 

Those Daemonettes look very, very concerned.

"Hey, Marius. Marius. What are you doing. Stop. Musical instruments are not for that. STOP."

[HeadlessCross]

11 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

Those Daemonettes look very, very concerned.

"Hey, Marius. Marius. What are you doing. Stop. Musical instruments are not for that. STOP."

Huh, so maybe mayonnaise IS an instrument 

[Special Officer Doofy]

29 minutes ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

I'm also of the opinion that removing the 'generic' things from the cult Legions/warbands is/was a bad move. To use a term that's come up a lot in this thread, removing assault marines, havocs, bikers, etc - from the cult Legions has flanderised them completely. 

 

As a Death Guard only player for the last three editions, I'm okay with it. They get 17 datasheets that the main codex doesn't get, it's only fair. Not to mention lore wise Death Guard never really used bikes or jump packs. Mortarion is not a big fan of specialized troops. There is also existing lore from previous editions. From the 4th edition codex "No unit with the Mark of Nurgle may carry any of the following weapons: lascannon, autocannon, missile launcher or heavy bolter."

 

I'm glad it's a stand alone codex and not a supplement. Having to buy two books is a burden not a privilege.

[LSM]

24 minutes ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

Slight correction, it wasn't Eidolon who was the first noise marine. That honor goes to Marius Vairosean. He who picks up the oddly constructed instrument in the Maraviglia, to continue the wonderful notes he was hearing, becoming the first of the Kakophoni, predecessors to the noise marines. 

 

Vairosean was the first to pick up what would become a Sonic Blaster, but Eidolon had already had his Sonic Shriekers implanted by then. So it circles back to: how do you define a Noise Marine? Is having a Sonic Blaster/Blastmaster a requirement, or are Doom Sirens, Sonic Shriekers, a Warp Scream, a Psychic Cacophony, etc. enough? 

 

//

 

As to Death Guard and Heavy Weapons, going back to their Index Astartes article it was said that since the Heresy they "have shown little regard for heavy weapons" (though... it doesn't really say why...). Resultingly, their Havocs were Plague Marines with extra Special Weapons allowed. This carried over into the 2002 Codex, where the Mark of Nurgle disallowed units from taking Heavy Weapons.

 

(I guess the IA article does say that Mortarion growing up fighting in rocky mountain terrain made him favour basic infantry, and engendered a dislike of Jump Packs and Bikes. They preferred basic Marines and Terminators instead, and were renowned for their skill in sweeping Space Hulks. It doesn't mention disliking Heavy Weapons, but if their combat doctrine was about sweeping trenches, ships, buildings, mountain passes, etc. then maybe they found that they didn't have great opportunities for their use. Of course, as you note, the Horus Heresy game went in a different direction, but maybe the 40k team still holds to that older lore. Isn't it fun when "everything's canon!")

[Hungry Nostraman Lizard]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

 

Vairosean was the first to pick up what would become a Sonic Blaster, but Eidolon had already had his Sonic Shriekers implanted by then. So it circles back to: how do you define a Noise Marine? Is having a Sonic Blaster/Blastmaster a requirement, or are Doom Sirens, Sonic Shriekers, a Warp Scream, a Psychic Cacophony, etc. enough? 

 

//

 

As to Death Guard and Heavy Weapons, going back to their Index Astartes article it was said that since the Heresy they "have shown little regard for heavy weapons" (though... it doesn't really say why...). Resultingly, their Havocs were Plague Marines with extra Special Weapons allowed. This carried over into the 2002 Codex, where the Mark of Nurgle disallowed units from taking Heavy Weapons.

 

(I guess the IA article does say that Mortarion growing up fighting in rocky mountain terrain made him favour basic infantry, and engendered a dislike of Jump Packs and Bikes. They preferred basic Marines and Terminators instead, and were renowned for their skill in sweeping Space Hulks. It doesn't mention disliking Heavy Weapons, but if their combat doctrine was about sweeping trenches, ships, buildings, mountain passes, etc. then maybe they found that they didn't have great opportunities for their use. Of course, as you note, the Horus Heresy game went in a different direction, but maybe the 40k team still holds to that older lore. Isn't it fun when "everything's canon!")

That is true. I guess you could argue both ways in perpetuity. 

I'll argue for the sake of character diversity, Eidolon already has a lot going on. Giving it to Marius feels a bit better, in my personal opinion. It was Marius's company that emulated his weapon, tweaking it, and later going to war on Istvaan V entirely with their creations, dubbed by then as the Kakophoni - so perhaps if viewed this way, the emulation of Marius methods to his men, we get the 'cult' in 'cult Legion'?

Following that, I'd personally favor if Noise-Marines were the baseline (and could be pistol+CQC weapon, or bolters+special weapons), and the evolution of Kakophoni would be the 6-man upgrade. Thematically, this is the sub-cult within the cult Legion. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

 

Vairosean was the first to pick up what would become a Sonic Blaster, but Eidolon had already had his Sonic Shriekers implanted by then. So it circles back to: how do you define a Noise Marine? Is having a Sonic Blaster/Blastmaster a requirement, or are Doom Sirens, Sonic Shriekers, a Warp Scream, a Psychic Cacophony, etc. enough? 

 

//

 

As to Death Guard and Heavy Weapons, going back to their Index Astartes article it was said that since the Heresy they "have shown little regard for heavy weapons" (though... it doesn't really say why...). Resultingly, their Havocs were Plague Marines with extra Special Weapons allowed. This carried over into the 2002 Codex, where the Mark of Nurgle disallowed units from taking Heavy Weapons.

 

(I guess the IA article does say that Mortarion growing up fighting in rocky mountain terrain made him favour basic infantry, and engendered a dislike of Jump Packs and Bikes. They preferred basic Marines and Terminators instead, and were renowned for their skill in sweeping Space Hulks. It doesn't mention disliking Heavy Weapons, but if their combat doctrine was about sweeping trenches, ships, buildings, mountain passes, etc. then maybe they found that they didn't have great opportunities for their use. Of course, as you note, the Horus Heresy game went in a different direction, but maybe the 40k team still holds to that older lore. Isn't it fun when "everything's canon!")

Here's the kicker though: Mortarion hasn't done any leading for thousands of years. It's absurd to say none of the Death Guard picked up on other habits. 

[LSM]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Here's the kicker though: Mortarion hasn't done any leading for thousands of years. It's absurd to say none of the Death Guard picked up on other habits. 

 

Well, I'd assumed that it was the result of working backwards. (ie. Death Guard didn't dislike using Bikes, Jump Packs, and Heavy Weapons because of their lore, but the reverse: GW wrote lore about why they didn't use those things after deciding not to give them those things.) 

 

I've advocated for a Heavy Bolter/Entropy Cannon DG Havoc squad before, so: I'm not arguing against them. I'm offering the possible reasoning - DG were created to be slow, tough, close-in fighters. Giving them fast units and long ranged units went against that, so they made up lore for why they don't use them.

 

(Of course, back then Raptors were their own Cult, as none of the Cult Legions had access to them. Ditto for Obliterators.)

 

World Eaters were the blood-thirsty madmen army, and so they got Berzerker Bikers and Chosen Berzerkers (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons) but no access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, Havocs, Land Raiders (wow, really!), and 0-1 Predators. (Oh, and no Sorcerers.)

 

Thousand Sons got Cultists (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons), and lost access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, and Havocs.

 

Death Guard got Plague Marine Havocs (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons), and lost access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, and Havocs.

 

Cult Legion Possessed, instead of rolling 3 dice on the chart rolled 2 plus: Death Guard Possessed automatically got Fearsome, World Eaters Possessed automatically got Strong, and Thousand Sons Possessed automatically got Daemonically Fast.

 

//

 

Emperor's Children were done first, and their army list had a different (unrepeated) format. No special Possessed, and complete access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Bikers, Raptors, and Obliterators. The only special restrictions were that Havocs, Land Raiders, and Predators were 0-1 (as outside of Sonic Weapons few Slaaneshi Space Marines regard long-range firepower positively), and the special bonuses were access to Sonic Weapons for Characters, Marines, Veterans, Havocs, and Dreadnoughts.

 

(Also just spotted a fun note: the article interchangeably uses "Noise Marine Terminators" and "Slaanesh Terminators". Which reminds me of Codex: Chaos, where Thousand Sons Marines could only be taken if your army included a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer", but there was technically no way to do that unless you assumed that "Tzeentch Sorcerer" was synonymous.)

 

I'd suggest that if they had been last instead of first, Emperor's Children would have been formatted like the other three Cult Legions, and the difference was probably due to trial-and-error instead of intent. Certainly the 2002 Codex Emperor's Children are that way. (Though notably Noise Marines had access to a far wider array of weaponry than any of the other Cult Troops, which they'd then lose in the 2007 Codex.)

Edited October 26 by LSM

[lansalt]

14 hours ago, LSM said:

So it circles back to: how do you define a Noise Marine? Is having a Sonic Blaster/Blastmaster a requirement, or are Doom Sirens, Sonic Shriekers, a Warp Scream, a Psychic Cacophony, etc. enough? 

Going by the BL books, actual "Noise Marines" aren't just slaaneshi marines using sonic weapons, they're a sub-cult devoted to the Song of Slaanesh. They operate more like a heavy support squad/havocs instead of regular tactical CSM. That's why Vairosean is said to have been the first of them, and for Eidolon his sonic weapons are just a tool.

[LSM]

3 hours ago, lansalt said:

Going by the BL books, actual "Noise Marines" aren't just slaaneshi marines using sonic weapons, they're a sub-cult devoted to the Song of Slaanesh. They operate more like a heavy support squad/havocs instead of regular tactical CSM. That's why Vairosean is said to have been the first of them, and for Eidolon his sonic weapons are just a tool.

 

Going by Fabius Bile: Primogenitor (2016) et al and subsequently Lucius: The Faultless Blade (2017) and Renegade: Lord of Excess (2024).

 

The developers currently working on Emperor's Children (or, well, they're probably all wrapped up now) could be huge fans of these books, and work to endeavor for the faction to hew closely to the canon they establish. Or they could have never picked one up, and be completely ignorant of them while being intimately familiar with the second and third edition codexes they played with in their youth. Or work to flawlessly blend the two together (fingers crossed). We don't know yet which way things will go.

 

I'm waiting on the paperback for Eidolon: The Auric Hammer but as mentioned previously am in the middle of The Path of Heaven (2016). In it (and other 'Heresy stuff I've read) there doesn't seem to be any mention of the Song of Slaanesh, that I can recall. Angel Exterminatus (2012) also describes the Sonic Blasters used by the Kakophoni quite differently to how their models would later be portrayed - with frequent use of words like "weird halberds" which suggest Graham McNeill had the classic guitar-gun in mind. (He also had them in pink and other clashing neon colours, with garish disregard for legion iconography, which later books would backpedal.) Which kind of highlights the "different creators, different canons" issue: Graham McNeill was definitely transitioning the Emperor's Children very quickly into their 40k selves in 2012, but then most everyone else involved seemed to prefer the old "Tony Cottrell/purple at the Siege" take and so... just ignored that...

 

But The Path of Heaven very much positions Eidolon as a Noise Marine. He leads the Kakophoni into battle, he thinks about how the sonic cults are taking over the legion and how he's the one who has embraced the mutations more than any other. He's screaming tanks in two, has a massive new "organ grill" breastplate (that might be from The Soul, Severed). A couple more excerpts I jotted down (ellipses where I've condensed things, italics per the original):

 

“...once the most unsullied of Legions... They had purged their ranks... and now numbered only the devoted amongst their numbers, the brothers who embraced the new path, who revelled in it, who strove for sensation with all the zealotry they had once reserved for martial exactitude.

“What they had lost in dignity they had gained in pain-wracked power. Gifts came with mutilations, changes that once they would have shrunk from but which now made them conduits for a greater deadliness. Their armour had warped, crackling and blistering as the flesh and iron within twisted into new shapes. They toyed with their sacred gene architecture, willingly submitting to the knives of their apothecaries, who in turn had become the most exalted of their number – a priest-caste of flesh-artisans commanding power over life, death and the various charted states between and beyond.”

-The Path of Heaven, pg 20-22

 

“Konenos knew why – he felt the same. Combat withdrawal was harder now than it had ever been... The world outside the battlefield had become almost permanently fuzzy – a low-volume, soft-edged dreasmscape.

“At least we can survive its withdrawal now, he thought, perfectly aware of where this direction led. That may not always be true.

“...Eidolon was entitled to fantasise... Of all of them, all those gifted with psychosonic hell-weapons, he was by far the most proficient..."

-The Path of Heaven, pg 169-170

 

“Cario came to stand before Eidolon, and Konenos watched him all the way. The blademaster's bearing was immaculate, his poise impeccable, but the absence of flesh-improvement was disappointing. It spoke of a lack of ambition, and fate had a way of punishing that level of pride.”

-The Path of Heaven, pg 172

 

And of course, Eidolon on the cover of Echoes of Revelation (2017), which features The Soul, Severed, leading his cacophonic forces against a "more normal" faction of the Third:

 

 

//

 

15 hours ago, Hungry Nostraman Lizard said:

...later going to war on Istvaan V entirely with their creations, dubbed by then as the Kakophoni...

 

Aside: I've been doing my best to nail down certain terms (as someone who likes the historiography of things - the history of a piece of history). As far as I can tell, Kakophoni doesn't appear as a name in Fulgrim (2007) nor in The Horus Heresy Book One: Betrayal (2012). It is in Angel Exterminatus (2012), and The Horus Heresy Book Two: Massacre (2013) where they get rules and models.

 

And of course, Vairosean is dead pretty early in the 'Heresy. (I know it's a super silly, hackneyed death, and so understand why folks would want to ignore it. But it does happen.)

 

//

 

And to further comment on how things change, this is Vairosean's art from the Legions game (2021):

 

 

But I randomly stumbled upon some fan art (Shane Cook, 2016), posted seven years ago on reddit. A reply had this to say about it:

 

"After picking up the Warhammer book bundle and finally getting to reading Fulgrim a couple of months ago, this illustration really [cuss] nails the mental image of Marius I got from the book."

 

 

And like... *fans self* yes please.

 

Edited October 26 by LSM

[Gree]

4 hours ago, LSM said:

 

Going by Fabius Bile: Primogenitor (2016) et al and subsequently Lucius: The Faultless Blade (2017) and Renegade: Lord of Excess (2024).

 

The developers currently working on Emperor's Children (or, well, they're probably all wrapped up now) could be huge fans of these books, and work to endeavor for the faction to hew closely to the canon they establish. Or they could have never picked one up, and be completely ignorant of them while being intimately familiar with the second and third edition codexes they played with in their youth. Or work to flawlessly blend the two together (fingers crossed). We don't know yet which way things will go.

 

 

For what it's worth, when the WE got their release, the Angron tie-in novel for the Arks of Omens featured a World Eaters:

 

Foot Lord

Warpsmith

Dark Apostle

Berzerker-Surgeon

 

None of which could be taken in the codex. Nor does the book make mention of any of the Eightbound terminology. I would not be surprised if much of the Emperor's Children codex was brand new stuff.

[Daylight]

5 hours ago, LSM said:

And to further comment on how things change, this is Vairosean's art from the Legions game (2021):

 

Legions has amazing artwork; I remember being taken aback by how horrifying his face was when Vairosean first dropped as a warlord.

[LSM]

34 minutes ago, Gree said:

 

For what it's worth, when the WE got their release, the Angron tie-in novel for the Arks of Omens featured a World Eaters:

 

Foot Lord

Warpsmith

Dark Apostle

Berzerker-Surgeon

 

None of which could be taken in the codex. Nor does the book make mention of any of the Eightbound terminology. I would not be surprised if much of the Emperor's Children codex was brand new stuff.

 

Aye.

 

Black Library authors don't restrict themselves to the lore as present in the codexes, and sculptors don't restrict themselves to what's already been presented in Black Library fiction.

 

For good and ill it's a constant push and pull. I try to remember that; that just because I "know" something doesn't mean that the person in charge knows it. Or knows it, and doesn't care to change it.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Gree said:

 

For what it's worth, when the WE got their release, the Angron tie-in novel for the Arks of Omens featured a World Eaters:

 

Foot Lord

Warpsmith

Dark Apostle

Berzerker-Surgeon

 

None of which could be taken in the codex. Nor does the book make mention of any of the Eightbound terminology. I would not be surprised if much of the Emperor's Children codex was brand new stuff.

GW is very inconsistent. If you recall 8th, regular Lords in the Death Guard Codex lacked T5 and /or FNP

[Mogger351]

15 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

GW is very inconsistent. If you recall 8th, regular Lords in the Death Guard Codex lacked T5 and /or FNP

There's a mild difference here. The material in question is the launch novel for the faction and associated characters, it shows a multitude of units for the world eaters that simply don't exist rules wise.

 

There's also talk of bolter zerkers, mutilators, chaos lords, whirlwinds, a land raider variant with autocannons.

 

I guess it isn't GW being inconsistent, it's black library and GW not being on the same page.

[Scribe]

I'd caution against hoping the lore informs the EC release. Hope being that first step on the road etc etc.

 

The WE release would seem to make it clear that history, lore, depth, whatever, can all be washed away very quickly.

[Plaguecaster]

It's going to be very annoying to see what EC are forced to lose access to becoming a seperate faction like the other legions which always found absolutely stupid for certain units like no vindicators for Death guard and no raptors for world eaters

 

[HeadlessCross]

On 10/25/2024 at 5:20 PM, LSM said:

 

Well, I'd assumed that it was the result of working backwards. (ie. Death Guard didn't dislike using Bikes, Jump Packs, and Heavy Weapons because of their lore, but the reverse: GW wrote lore about why they didn't use those things after deciding not to give them those things.) 

 

I've advocated for a Heavy Bolter/Entropy Cannon DG Havoc squad before, so: I'm not arguing against them. I'm offering the possible reasoning - DG were created to be slow, tough, close-in fighters. Giving them fast units and long ranged units went against that, so they made up lore for why they don't use them.

 

(Of course, back then Raptors were their own Cult, as none of the Cult Legions had access to them. Ditto for Obliterators.)

 

World Eaters were the blood-thirsty madmen army, and so they got Berzerker Bikers and Chosen Berzerkers (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons) but no access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, Havocs, Land Raiders (wow, really!), and 0-1 Predators. (Oh, and no Sorcerers.)

 

Thousand Sons got Cultists (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons), and lost access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, and Havocs.

 

Death Guard got Plague Marine Havocs (to go along with their Cult Troops, Cult Terminators, and Daemons), and lost access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Raptors, Bikers, Obliterators, and Havocs.

 

Cult Legion Possessed, instead of rolling 3 dice on the chart rolled 2 plus: Death Guard Possessed automatically got Fearsome, World Eaters Possessed automatically got Strong, and Thousand Sons Possessed automatically got Daemonically Fast.

 

//

 

Emperor's Children were done first, and their army list had a different (unrepeated) format. No special Possessed, and complete access to regular Marines, Veterans, Terminators, Bikers, Raptors, and Obliterators. The only special restrictions were that Havocs, Land Raiders, and Predators were 0-1 (as outside of Sonic Weapons few Slaaneshi Space Marines regard long-range firepower positively), and the special bonuses were access to Sonic Weapons for Characters, Marines, Veterans, Havocs, and Dreadnoughts.

 

(Also just spotted a fun note: the article interchangeably uses "Noise Marine Terminators" and "Slaanesh Terminators". Which reminds me of Codex: Chaos, where Thousand Sons Marines could only be taken if your army included a "Thousand Sons Sorcerer", but there was technically no way to do that unless you assumed that "Tzeentch Sorcerer" was synonymous.)

 

I'd suggest that if they had been last instead of first, Emperor's Children would have been formatted like the other three Cult Legions, and the difference was probably due to trial-and-error instead of intent. Certainly the 2002 Codex Emperor's Children are that way. (Though notably Noise Marines had access to a far wider array of weaponry than any of the other Cult Troops, which they'd then lose in the 2007 Codex.)

Okay, but I have to reiterate: there's still no real central leadership to continue making Death Guard fight in that inflexible manner. That not even one discovered "huh, jump packs are neato" is an absurd notion for an army that has been fighting and recruiting for 10k years. 

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Okay, but I have to reiterate: there's still no real central leadership to continue making Death Guard fight in that inflexible manner. That not even one discovered "huh, jump packs are neato" is an absurd notion for an army that has been fighting and recruiting for 10k years. 

For a company that makes models based on lore and does developments for that army following that method, then yes, it would be odd.

 

But this is GW we're talking about here. If one of their sculptors makes a cool thing like a nurgle havoc or a WE raptor, then the lore will quickly change again (codex lore that is). Till then, this is the way it goes. 

[lansalt]

There's (old) official art of DG raptors or WE havocs and bikers. The still current CSM terminator lord has Khorne bits, but he's missing from the WE codex.

IMO it's clear that at some point the game developers decided to restrict the cult legions and railroad them to a play style regardless of the fluff or available kits. Maybe it's related to wanting to separate mini ranges for accounting reasons (even within 40k)?

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Okay, but I have to reiterate: there's still no real central leadership to continue making Death Guard fight in that inflexible manner. That not even one discovered "huh, jump packs are neato" is an absurd notion for an army that has been fighting and recruiting for 10k years. 

 

Yeah it's not like Mortarion assembled his whole legion recently and launched an attack on ultramar in a trilogy or anything... Besides maybe iron warriors and the black legion, the Death Guard are the most unified traitor legion (as far as chaos legions go).

 

Also, after painting 30+ plague marines, I don't think their bloated mk III armored bodies would get much flight with a jump pack. They are more of a "I have to buy a second plane ticket" kind of legion.

[Schurge]

I hope the EC release pleases the long time EC players and preserves the use of as much of their collections as possible.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

Yeah it's not like Mortarion assembled his whole legion recently and launched an attack on ultramar in a trilogy or anything... Besides maybe iron warriors and the black legion, the Death Guard are the most unified traitor legion (as far as chaos legions go).

 

Also, after painting 30+ plague marines, I don't think their bloated mk III armored bodies would get much flight with a jump pack. They are more of a "I have to buy a second plane ticket" kind of legion.

So he gets his Legion together once in 10k years and you accept that?

Edited October 28 by HeadlessCross
Typo

[01RTB01]

39 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

So he gets his Legion together once in 10k years and you accept that?

Heresy fatigue is quite the thing. Most of the primarchs suffered with it. Takes quite the time to get the right support, head space back and then go again. Just the way the cookie crumbles.

[Wormwoods]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

So he gets his Legion together once in 10k years and you accept that?

Look, time is convoluted in Lordr- in the warp, maybe for him it's been like, 9 months?

[LSM]

Anecdote on lore changes.

 

In their Index Astartes article (2001) it says that "Dreadnoughts are not employed by the White Scars". Sure enough, they don't have Dreadnoughts available in their Army List (they do have a whole bunch of rules around bikes and infantry being mounted in transports).

 

As I've mentioned, I've been reading The Path of Heaven (2016) and one of the characters in it - a White Scar - is a self-loathing mecha-monstrosity of a marine that would make an Iron Hand swoon. He is that way - they went to such lengths to rebuild him "humanoidly" - because, as stated in the book... the White Scars don't use Dreadnoughts. If he was in any other legion, he would have been interred in a Dreadnought.

 

Come to The Horus Heresy Book Eight: Malevolence (2019), and we are told that this is false claim by outsiders. The Fifth does use Dreadnoughts, afterall. Codex: Supplement: White Scars (2019) agrees, and lists Dreadnoughts amongst all but the tenth company.

 

Things are, and then all of a sudden they aren't.

 

//

 

For a more EC example, books like Angel Exterminatus and The Path of Heaven both have quite huge emphasis on the degradation of The Emperor's Children. It's actually one of my favourite background plots in the latter: the death of the Palatine Blades, conceptually.* Konenos' opinion on the folly of those who cling to the older disciplines, and refuse to commit to enlightenment, vs Cario who believes the Noise Marines are dullards and sadists - walking advertisements for avoiding entanglement in Fulgrim's perversions - and only the pure ones, his Palatine Blades, are a pleasure to fight alongside. All indications are that this conceptual battle is going to come to a head in the book's climax, and my bet would be that Konenos and the sonic cult wins out.

 

But then other (later) sources make much about the Emperor's Children's magnificent bladework. It's like people love the pre-Heresy Legion so much, and don't want it to be gone, even though that was the original point of the pre-Heresy Legion. A juxtaposition. The Emperor's Children were conceived of as some of the lowest of the low - those reviled by even all the other Chaos Legions, those who wandered off to pursue their own amusements at The Siege, those who were at the centre of the Legion Wars in the Eye, etc. The addition of a pre-Heresy pride in perfection to their lore (in Index Astartes, 2001) was there to highlight their fate of twisted, vicious, savage, pleasure-fuelled, indulgent, decadent, gleeful maniacs.

 

Those "...who strove for sensation with all the zealotry they had once reserved for martial exactitude." (The Path of Heaven)

 

We go from that, and even 8th edition's Index: Chaos (2017), where: "The Emperors Children fight with the towering arrogance of those who believe themselves entirely superior, even as they cast strategy and tactics aside with the frantic avidity of pleasure-lost addicts. Yet their speed, savagery, and sublime warrior skill combine with the horrific effects of their sonic weaponry to ensure that, whatever the Emperor’s Children lack in discipline, they more than make up for with the sheer manic ferocity of their onslaught."

 

To 9th's Codex: Chaos Space Marines (2022), where: "No idle boast is the claim of perfection made by the obsessive and ostentatious Emperor's Children. Their warbands are experts in sublime artistic bladework, lighting fast manoeuvres and the pinpoint application of overwhelming firepower."

 

So things change.

 

*Although, Chris Wraight mentions Palatine Blades having "sapphire" armour a couple times and... like, sapphires can be purple, pink, etc. But when everyone hears "sapphire", they think "blue", right? I'm not crazy on that?