EC Rumours

[ZeroWolf]

8 minutes ago, Slaanbull said:

I’m still getting over the prospect of losing terminator armoured characters and raptors. I am not ready for them to gut predators, helbrutes and cultists. It seems like such a nonsensical removal that it discredits the ‘leak’ in my opinion. But my faith in GW army design is low enough that I’m sure it could be true. 
 

18” blastmasters and only being able to field daemons in one of six detachments also sounds very weird to me. I’m not up to date with 10th edition codexes though, so I am not familiar enough with how they’ve handled allies and similar borrowed units.

 

Guess we’ll know soon enough if we should field our EC dreadnoughts and helbrutes as armiger proxies! I sure hope not, but us traitor legion players have plenty of experience being creative with our models the last many years. 

To be fair, this will be the first cult codex with demons included, so there's no precedent at this point.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, ZeroWolf said:

To be fair, this will be the first cult codex with demons included, so there's no precedent at this point.

 

Nothing in Daemons is worth losing the only answer Non-DG Cult Marines have to Armour.

Besides, according to this same leak the included Daemons are A) Limited to 1000pts only and B) Limited to one Detachment only.

[Mogger351]

The biggest takeaway from this is that they seem to want to remove daemons wholesale eventually. With the invention of vashtor I can't help but wonder if we're going to end up with generic 40k tech-daemon kits and a different profile for them per chaos marine book.

[Slaanbull]

8 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

To be fair, this will be the first cult codex with demons included, so there's no precedent at this point.

Right! Which is why I can’t comment on the perceived validity of it. But the combined restrictions that Indy Techwisp points out seem really limiting to me.

I personally only ever summoned or fielded very few daemons, never was a fan of the full daemon armies, so it probably wont make a big difference for my games. But if true it underlines one of my bigger gripes with the 10th ed detachment system which seems to focus overly on keyword stack and buffing of very specific builds.

 

It doesn’t quite seem like the amount of trimming we’re seeing - simplification of points, wargear options, stratagem cut, and potential datasheet trimming (at the same time as death korps and night lord infantry need specific sheets to differentiate from guardsmen and legionaries?)- is resulting in a more balanced game anyways which is usually the main argument. But this is all issues I have with the main game and not the EC codex.

I just hope that we will still have options that makes our army look like an Emperors Children chaos space marines army, and not something that scrubs all recorded history so all EC armies look the same. Releasing updates to the four god-focused traitor legions so close together was a great possibility to expand on World Eaters and streamline across, instead of limiting everyone to the extend of WE! 

[Vardus]

If these rumours are true about the loss of the vehicles and daemon engines, other mono god players should start to worry too!

[Macidious]

I think true or false , no matter what it means the codex release is sooner rather than later which is the only positive to take from this , so let’s hope today we get some good news

[Indy Techwisp]

So Valrak has a video out now talking about this.

Not sure if that's because he also believes it or is just reporting on it, but I'm surprised by the amount of people in the comments calling the leaked rules OP.

 

Like, it doesn't matter of Flawless Blades have Lethal 3+ if they can never get into Melee to land those attacks.

Also people saying that clearly your answer to Tanks is the Daemons (while ignoring the 1 Detachment thing) or... melee with Flawless Blades, to which I say good luck and Tank Shock.

 

On a more serious note tho if this actually is what GW are doing for EC, then since EC are the First "Cult Marines with Daemons" faction to be released that sets a worrying precedent for the other Cult Marine factions losing these units as well.

 

WE currently rely on their inherited CSM vehicles for their answer to Ranged threats, so losing those would put them in the same situation as EC would be.

DG would become the only Cult Marines to have more than one "shooty" vehicle with the Plagueburst Crawler.

TSons, being the shooty Cult Marines, could keep them regardless, but if they don't then the meme will have become reality and there'll be more imported AoS/WHFB units in the army than actual Marines. Also despite being "the shooty ones" TSons do also struggle with Armour, so losing the Tanks would still be awful.

 

The only way I could possibly see this working is if GW are making these codexes work like Divergent Marine Supplements and the Cults can just steal from CSM with impunity, but you'd think if that was the case the Leak would've said so.

 

Edit: also a note about Detachments.

I've seen people saying EC are getting 6, but it's unlikely that all the Cult Marines would get 6. Rather, the average is 4 (not including Grotmas) and there's a very real possibility that, if this is real, every single Cult Marine faction ends up with 1 Daemon Detachment that's the only place you can use the Daemons, 1 Detachment focusing on that factions cultist equivalent (Poxwalkers, Tzaangors and Jackals), one Detachment that's just the Index rework and one more new one.

Idk about anyone else, but I think that would suck.

Edited Sunday at 10:55 AM by Indy Techwisp

[Mogger351]

Kinda feels like a loss all round. My brother has been working on a  grand army of chaos with a force of each codex basically anchored around some word bearers, he's now contemplating trimming back to 1k on the cult forces because those restrictions just kill his enthusiasm, which I full understand.

[darkseren1ty]

from what i've seen of the leaks thus far... theres very little synergy in this army. its all about... run to the front lines and charge into melee! every marine for themself!

and while that is thematic (to some aspects of the EC), it seems very... ramshackle. especially considering how their new lord equiv was all about being a master strategist and what not.

im hoping that the stuff left out of this leak somehow ties the army together into a cohesive force.

[Mogger351]

8 minutes ago, darkseren1ty said:

from what i've seen of the leaks thus far... theres very little synergy in this army. its all about... run to the front lines and charge into melee! every marine for themself!

and while that is thematic (to some aspects of the EC), it seems very... ramshackle. especially considering how their new lord equiv was all about being a master strategist and what not.

im hoping that the stuff left out of this leak somehow ties the army together into a cohesive force.

I mean that is still a cohesive force and it's one most armies in the game have been able to do/doing for decades.

 

Their core infantry are infiltrators/scouts, everything has high movement values and ability to advance and charge. I don't honestly think the lack of ranged options is a concern and they'll get to melee easily. The blade dudes wounding literally everything on a 3+ makes them your antivehicle. Welcome to the same problems world eaters have had, you get 1 or 2 very fast, very punchy units to do the heavy lifting and your game revolves them.

[Alternis]

I find it amusing how everyone seems to be in despair for the lack on anti-vehicle options 

 

but no one’s talking about the Fulgrim stuff lol

[Macidious]

14 minutes ago, Alternis said:

I find it amusing how everyone seems to be in despair for the lack on anti-vehicle options 

 

but no one’s talking about the Fulgrim stuff lol

I don’t believe these leaks as well cause it looks like Fulgrim doesn’t buff people only himself which I think makes no sense as a primarch , I know he’s a selfish being but , Angron is a brain dead rage monster and still gives out command aura abilities by being in his presence 

Edited Sunday at 11:56 AM by Macidious

[Alternis]

15 minutes ago, Macidious said:

I don’t believe these leaks as well cause it looks like Fulgrim doesn’t buff people only himself which I think makes no sense as a primarch , I know he’s a selfish being but , Angron is a brain dead rage monster and still gives out command aura abilities by being in his presence 

Playing devils advocate but isn’t Fulgrim super selfish anyway? Lol 

 

being reasonable id say OP likely misunderstood something in translation of this and likely got some things incorrect or loosely didn’t understand it

[Macidious]

3 minutes ago, Alternis said:

Playing devils advocate but isn’t Fulgrim super selfish anyway? Lol 

 

being reasonable id say OP likely misunderstood something in translation of this and likely got some things incorrect or loosely didn’t understand it

Yeah I’m in the same boat as you with yeah I get he’s a selfish being but would feel weird for every primarch designed to do this one thing and for him not to haha, even Angron who can’t even communicate 

[Mogger351]

18 minutes ago, Macidious said:

I don’t believe these leaks as well cause it looks like Fulgrim doesn’t buff people only himself which I think makes no sense as a primarch , I know he’s a selfish being but , Angron is a brain dead rage monster and still gives out command aura abilities by being in his presence 

He has fights first as a self buff. On a daemon primarch. I'd take that over a 6" reroll advances or whatever any day of the week.

 

But as others say, he's a selfish :cuss:. Angron needed some form of ability that wasn't straight up damage, he has no conscious thought to stop and buff/command someone so some passive auras because he scared/empowered things around him makes sense. He's not opting to buff people, he just radiates without conscious choice.

 

Fulgrim doesn't want to share, he doesn't want to raise people up to his level, he's not about helping. But he will happily show off how fast or beautiful he is.

[Indy Techwisp]

Something else of note, specifically regarding EC this time.

Considering how long people have been waiting for an EC army, the most likely player base to be buying into the EC Faction is almost certainly going to have a selection of EC painted CSM units already and have been planning out what's "safe" to buy based on the other Cult Marines since back in 7th when TSons split off from the CSM Codex.

 

So to make the choice to start culling the Imported CSM units now feels like more of a Rugpull than ever.

 

EDIT:
To be clear on this, I expected the death of CSM Vehicles to be coming in 11th (which is why I rushed buying them for my TSons this edition) since they live and die by the whims of GW to keep producing Firstborn Tanks.
One edition to keep using your old Tanks from CSM and then having them get rotated out next edition would still be annoying, but it's not "Punishing you for becoming a full faction" levels of annoying.

Edited Sunday at 12:14 PM by Indy Techwisp

[Mogger351]

1 minute ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Something else of note, specifically regarding EC this time.

Considering how long people have been waiting for an EC army, the most likely player base to be buying into the EC Faction is almost certainly going to have a selection of EC painted CSM units already and have been planning out what's "safe" to buy based on the other Cult Marines since back in 7th when TSons split off from the CSM Codex.

 

So to make the choice to start culling the Imported CSM units now feels like more of a Rugpull than ever.

It's emotion clouding judgement here. I can't say I agree with someof their choices, but GW never gave a "safe" units list, people made assumptions ans they assumed incorrectly (I would have done so as well).

 

So it sucks, I understand the displeasure and sympathise, but nobody has ever been misled or rug-pulled.

[Macidious]

5 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Something else of note, specifically regarding EC this time.

Considering how long people have been waiting for an EC army, the most likely player base to be buying into the EC Faction is almost certainly going to have a selection of EC painted CSM units already and have been planning out what's "safe" to buy based on the other Cult Marines since back in 7th when TSons split off from the CSM Codex.

 

So to make the choice to start culling the Imported CSM units now feels like more of a Rugpull than ever.

 

EDIT:
To be clear on this, I expected the death of CSM Vehicles to be coming in 11th (which is why I rushed buying them for my TSons this edition) since they live and die by the whims of GW to keep producing Firstborn Tanks.
One edition to keep using your old Tanks from CSM and then having them get rotated out next edition would still be annoying, but it's not "Punishing you for becoming a full faction" levels of annoying.

Yeah it’s why I haven’t bought anything except rhinos and demon princes so far cause they’re safe bets 

[jimbo1701]

48 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Something else of note, specifically regarding EC this time.

Considering how long people have been waiting for an EC army, the most likely player base to be buying into the EC Faction is almost certainly going to have a selection of EC painted CSM units already and have been planning out what's "safe" to buy based on the other Cult Marines since back in 7th when TSons split off from the CSM Codex.

 

So to make the choice to start culling the Imported CSM units now feels like more of a Rugpull than ever.

 

EDIT:
To be clear on this, I expected the death of CSM Vehicles to be coming in 11th (which is why I rushed buying them for my TSons this edition) since they live and die by the whims of GW to keep producing Firstborn Tanks.
One edition to keep using your old Tanks from CSM and then having them get rotated out next edition would still be annoying, but it's not "Punishing you for becoming a full faction" levels of annoying.

i recall when 8th landed and suddenly a lot of generic units became non viable for death guard (raptors, havocs etc). My friend had beautifully converted a death guard army prior to this and then half the units became redundant options. It happens sadly, and ultimately he ran them as generic chaos marines with mark of nurgle. The new death guard range was worth it imo, but the other cult marines have suffered somewhat as they were not a starter army for any edition and so have received much less in terms of specific kits for their factions. I hope that we will see their ranges expanded in this and the next edition. 

[Alternis]

I’m leaning more likely on the fact he has fights first and -1 to hit built in with his poison ability as standard 

 

and the fall back denial, and sacrifice Fights first for re rolls hits/wounds or both with something else is his Primarch abilities. 
 

it feels more appropriate and it’s very slaaneshi

[TheMawr]

1 hour ago, jimbo1701 said:

i recall when 8th landed and suddenly a lot of generic units became non viable for death guard (raptors, havocs etc). My friend had beautifully converted a death guard army prior to this and then half the units became redundant options. It happens sadly, and ultimately he ran them as generic chaos marines with mark of nurgle. 

 

I dont mean this dismissive but it is precisely that:

Your CSM army with EC flavor always was and always remains a CSM army.. it did lose things, wich is not great.. But the things lost are Lucius and Noise marines..  losing 2 options has been a regular thing for every army over decades.*

 

The EC army that at this moment doesnt exist yet is not that CSM army, its a new army, so you dont lose anything when the first codex hits, everything is a "gain". if among those gains there are things you already had in your CSM army its a Lucky coincedence but it doesnt mean what you didnt gain is something you "lost"

 

This is all not to say there arent options missing or reasons to complain/wishlist/etc .. its no different than every "new army" ; harlequins ( in 7th and 8th ), early Admech, GSC, Custodes, leagues of votann  all been there or are mostly still there. But TS, WE, EC and DG belong to this group.. Not the SM supplement group or the first Generation armies.

 

Dont expect/complain/speculate about it as if its CSM+ because it isnt and from thousand sons on clearly wasnt.

 

Like i said I dont mean this as dismissive Or assertive as it sounds, but i dont know how to say it different so hope someone gets the gist of what i mean.

 

Maybe adding a "dont focus on what CSM things they didnt get but focus on what EC things they should/might get" makes more sense to my wall of text ?

 

* I do think though there is absolutely no reason the Berzerkers, plague marines, rubric and noise marines shouldnt also remain part of CSM ( without weird ally rules ) named characters i get.. But completely taking these out of the CSM codex always felt weird to me.

[Indy Techwisp]

7 minutes ago, TheMawr said:

 

I dont mean this dismissive but it is precisely that:

Your CSM army with EC flavor always was and always remains a CSM army.. it did lose things, wich is not great.. But the things lost are Lucius and Noise marines..  losing 2 options has been a regular thing for every army over decades.*

 

The EC army that at this moment doesnt exist yet is not that CSM army, its a new army, so you dont lose anything when the first codex hits, everything is a "gain". if among those gains there are things you already had in your CSM army its a Lucky coincedence but it doesnt mean what you didnt gain is something you "lost"

 

This is all not to say there arent options missing or reasons to complain/wishlist/etc .. its no different than every "new army" ; harlequins ( in 7th and 8th ), early Admech, GSC, Custodes, leagues of votann  all been there or are mostly still there. But TS, WE, EC and DG belong to this group.. Not the SM supplement group or the first Generation armies.

 

Dont expect/complain/speculate about it as if its CSM+ because it isnt and from thousand sons on clearly wasnt.

 

Like i said I dont mean this as dismissive Or assertive as it sounds, but i dont know how to say it different so hope someone gets the gist of what i mean.

 

Maybe adding a "dont focus on what CSM things they didnt get but focus on what EC things they should/might get" makes more sense to my wall of text ?

 

* I do think though there is absolutely no reason the Berzerkers, plague marines, rubric and noise marines shouldnt also remain part of CSM ( without weird ally rules ) named characters i get.. But completely taking these out of the CSM codex always felt weird to me.

 

OK, fair point.
From the perspective of "New faction means everything is a Gain" they didn't "lose" anything.
But from that same perspective, if this leak is real then the faction doesn't Gain anything that would allow it to survive in the extremely Tank Heavy meta 10th ed finds itself in that isn't 1000pts of Daemons locked to a specific detachment.

 

It's the exact same problem either way.

[jimbo1701]

I think 

8 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

OK, fair point.
From the perspective of "New faction means everything is a Gain" they didn't "lose" anything.
But from that same perspective, if this leak is real then the faction doesn't Gain anything that would allow it to survive in the extremely Tank Heavy meta 10th ed finds itself in that isn't 1000pts of Daemons locked to a specific detachment.

 

It's the exact same problem either way.

 

I think that’s the main issue isn’t it. People are obviously very excited to get new emperors children models and rules, but it’s the prospect of losing things from their codex that they were previously able to use, made worse by the fact that there may not be a suitable alternative / proxy in the new codex to fill a crucial role. 
 

For example, a player with an existing emperors children army may choose to use their existing legionaries, lords, noise marines, chosen, rhinos, possessed etc to represent all the new models without spending a single ££. If they choose to. However, if the rumours are true they now may have no access to armour / long range firepower, with no suitable equivalent in the meantime.
 

A completely new player like myself who is planning to pick up the new models wouldn’t have the issue of old units becoming redundant, but if the rumours are true I would find myself limited on what options I had to fill certain battlefield roles until Gw decide to release EC specific vehicles / daemon engines how ever many years down the road. 

Edited Sunday at 02:48 PM by jimbo1701

[Mogger351]

11 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

OK, fair point.
From the perspective of "New faction means everything is a Gain" they didn't "lose" anything.
But from that same perspective, if this leak is real then the faction doesn't Gain anything that would allow it to survive in the extremely Tank Heavy meta 10th ed finds itself in that isn't 1000pts of Daemons locked to a specific detachment.

 

It's the exact same problem either way.

Again, we don't know what the offensive profile is but the sword fellas wound titans on a 3+ with 3 attacks each. They are the anti tank, they can be transported and move incredibly fast. They're basically marginally less random eighbound, who fill the same role.

[Indy Techwisp]

4 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Again, we don't know what the offensive profile is but the sword fellas wound titans on a 3+ with 3 attacks each. They are the anti tank, they can be transported and move incredibly fast. They're basically marginally less random eighbound, who fill the same role.

And again to that I say good luck getting them in.
Range is the name of the game right now.

 

Also on the "not knowing the profile" front, having Lethal 3+ is great and all, but there's every chance they're still swinging for 2 damage max.
Plus it's just lethal hits. we don't know what kind of AP they have on the blades. If it's AP 0 or 1, most Armoured vehicles are gonna save it regardless.

Edited Sunday at 02:57 PM by Indy Techwisp