EC Rumours

[Borbarad]

52 minutes ago, Rain said:

I still think that the 3.5 codex was the best Chaos codex that has ever been made, and possibly the best codex GW has ever put out, period, but it is what it is.

Rose-Tinted Glasses Phenomenon

[HeadlessCross]

1 minute ago, Rain said:

 

 

Okay, so stop buying GW product. Buy proxies, or 3D prints, or whatever. Have fun with that. It's not going to change GW's IP protection policies. But telling other players that GW's corporate decisions are the fault of those players is unproductive. 

It's unproductive if you let people stay in denial about what's happening, which is what has been happening for more than a decade. 

 

Also allies were a thing before 6th, just in a more limited capacity. 

[Evil Eye]

Nobody is in denial about it. But what do you expect us to do? If the entirety of this forum boycotted GW, they wouldn't notice because of the afforementioned whales. Short of a miracle (read: large-scale purging of said whales from the fanbase, however you'd do that) things aren't going to change.

[01RTB01]

8 minutes ago, Borbarad said:

Rose-Tinted Glasses Phenomenon

In fairness, it, the second Ed codexes were both great. I think even objectively they were great books. Same as the ork one for second Ed, a totally different game to third but that's not for discussion here.

 

I hope we see the tormentors and infractors rules shortly.

 

Flawless blades are insanely quick!

[HeadlessCross]

1 minute ago, Evil Eye said:

Nobody is in denial about it. But what do you expect us to do? If the entirety of this forum boycotted GW, they wouldn't notice because of the afforementioned whales. Short of a miracle (read: large-scale purging of said whales from the fanbase, however you'd do that) things aren't going to change.

Amazing to allow the supposed whales determine the fate of the hobby because nothing will change, apparently. If y'all managed to get back Deathwatch as much as they did, it means you aren't powerless in sending a message. 

[Evil Eye]

3 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Amazing to allow the supposed whales determine the fate of the hobby because nothing will change, apparently. If y'all managed to get back Deathwatch as much as they did, it means you aren't powerless in sending a message. 

Alright, what do you propose we do to make GW stop their no-model-no-rules policy? Buy less stuff? We're already doing that. It's not working.

[01RTB01]

Tons of off topic chat, could it be moved to amicus?

[Mogger351]

Honestly this is baffling. People in here are here because they're fans of the minis, the games and the setting.

 

But they're apparently the problem and source of all evil for, you know, partaking the the hobby they enjoy.

 

People as a rule of thumb don't want to spend their time moaning at a corporation, about how horrible the thing they're meant to spend their free time enjoying is. If that is how anyone feels, they probably need to stop forcing themselves to deal with something they dislike.

 

It's off topic, yes, but this thread will inevitably fill with these pointless anti-corporation vapid messages.

 

"I hate this and you're all the problem because you don't all hate it and send nasty comments to GW" - what positive beacon for the community.

[HeadlessCross]

4 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Honestly this is baffling. People in here are here because they're fans of the minis, the games and the setting.

 

But they're apparently the problem and source of all evil for, you know, partaking the the hobby they enjoy.

 

People as a rule of thumb don't want to spend their time moaning at a corporation, about how horrible the thing they're meant to spend their free time enjoying is. If that is how anyone feels, they probably need to stop forcing themselves to deal with something they dislike.

 

It's off topic, yes, but this thread will inevitably fill with these pointless anti-corporation vapid messages.

 

"I hate this and you're all the problem because you don't all hate it and send nasty comments to GW" - what positive beacon for the community.

People's current collections are being invalidated. You act like what Kirby said was true: the hobby is buying GW products. 

[Mogger351]

5 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

People's current collections are being invalidated. You act like what Kirby said was true: the hobby is buying GW products. 

They've played pink chaos space marines so far, their collection continues to function as pink chaos space marines.

 

The roster for emperors children is still smaller than even my pessimistic expectations, but ultimately there was a 0% chance that they would be chaos space marines but with more.

 

So the second they have to lose anything, someone somewhere will have units that don't neatly transfer from one entirely separate army to the other.

 

The hobby is a lot of things. Go house rule predators into your armies, go play 9th ed or earlier, use them in HH, the only thing limiting someone is any need to rigidly comply with meta comp 40k of today's rules.

 

So stop acting like the people who enjoy the game as it is now are the problem, just because you don't.

Edited Tuesday at 09:55 PM by Mogger351

[HeadlessCross]

3 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

So the second they have to lose anything,

Yes, they HAVE to lose something LOL

[Mogger351]

2 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yes, they HAVE to lose something LOL

There's several decades of precedent about how taking an army and giving a paint job an additional set of rules and units for no loss is bad for the game.

 

You can't want to be a unique independently supported army that is also the exact same as another army but with more on top.

 

Of course trimming some space for future growth of the range and wanting to refine the vision and scope of the army is purely bad GW rules writing, like they forgot to include helbrutes and it's the player bases fault for not throwing rocks at the offices right?

[Mana]

2 hours ago, skylerboodie said:

Forgive my ignorance, but if Codex: Chaos Daemons as its own thing is anticipated to be over, does that mean we think all of the following are also no longer valid units in 40K (/ moved to Legends), in addition to the CSM losses for EC?

- INFERNAL ENRAPTURESS

- THE MASQUE OF SLAANESH

- SYLL’ESSKE

- CONTORTED EPITOME

- TORMENTBRINGER ON EXALTED SEEKER CHARIOT

- TRANCEWEAVER

- HELLFLAYER

- SEEKER CHARIOT

- EXALTED SEEKER CHARIOT

 

Or am I just getting confused.

 

We are waiting for an official announcement about the future of chaos daemons as a faction, my gut feeling is we will get no codex and get to play with the index and the 4 grotmas detachments for the remainder of 10th edition, for 11th who knows (I also doubt they will axe the faction in 11th edition).

 

Are the leaked noise marines alright? I looked at them and they seemed "meh" to me (I'm not much of a competitive player).

[ZeroWolf]

I think demons may continue to exist in 11th, but only as online only rules. GW will probably look at if its profitable to make a printed codex for them. 12th might  be make or break.

[StrangerOrders]

28 minutes ago, Mana said:

 

We are waiting for an official announcement about the future of chaos daemons as a faction, my gut feeling is we will get no codex and get to play with the index and the 4 grotmas detachments for the remainder of 10th edition, for 11th who knows (I also doubt they will axe the faction in 11th edition).

 

Are the leaked noise marines alright? I looked at them and they seemed "meh" to me (I'm not much of a competitive player).

Some napkin math against Intercessors but... 

 

6 Noise Marines firing 18 shots at 3+ gives 11.88 hits, which at S5 means 3+ again to deal 7.84 wounds. -1 Native and ignore cover would probably mean 4+ saves... thats about 3.92 D2 taken by the squad (D3 if one is from the sarge with the master).

 

So the full blast of a squad of Noise Marines kills about 4 Intercessors, I leave it to others to decide if that is good or not and if I messed up the math on something. My token is that its fairly punchy against infantry.

 

I do wonder though, if folks were GW during a coming dataslate and you wanted to give the EC teeth, how would you change the Noise gun? Say you can only shift two dimensions of the profile or add a special rule.

Edited Tuesday at 10:42 PM by StrangerOrders

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

It is okay to vent and be unhappy about what GW are doing. They should have been clear and upfront and told people when the codex went to print about what units were getting cut.

 

The attitude of 'do nothing because the whales' is stupidity.

 

 

Edited 23 hours ago by Iron Father Ferrum
IRL politics removed

[01RTB01]

10 minutes ago, Mana said:

 

We are waiting for an official announcement about the future of chaos daemons as a faction, my gut feeling is we will get no codex and get to play with the index and the 4 grotmas detachments for the remainder of 10th edition, for 11th who knows (I also doubt they will axe the faction in 11th edition).

 

Are the leaked noise marines alright? I looked at them and they seemed "meh" to me (I'm not much of a competitive player).

Short ranged but they'll nuke stuff. 

[Scribe]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nope. Y'all rewarded GW's "no kit and bitz = no rules" mindset, so this is what happens.

 

The fact anyone gave GW money after the release of "10th the Index Card Edition" proved to be a joke, is exactly why we are here now.

 

GW as a rules provider should be a non-starter for EVERYONE at this point.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

There's several decades of precedent about how taking an army and giving a paint job an additional set of rules and units for no loss is bad for the game.

 

You can't want to be a unique independently supported army that is also the exact same as another army but with more on top.

 

Of course trimming some space for future growth of the range and wanting to refine the vision and scope of the army is purely bad GW rules writing, like they forgot to include helbrutes and it's the player bases fault for not throwing rocks at the offices right?

You're right, it's easy to forget Dreadnoughts and Helbrutes when they've only had them since inception. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

People's current collections are being invalidated. You act like what Kirby said was true: the hobby is buying GW products. 

Nothing is invalidated. I played Rogue Trader in 2025. People need to moan less and use their models regardless of Gee-Dubbs policies.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

=][= Please stop drawing analogies to real-world current events, and drop any pretense of real-world political discussion.  Neither is appropriate here.  =][=

[Marshal Loss]

Well with last night's array of leaks, things are solidifying and the picture is getting a bit clearer. I've definitely got some thoughts though I'd stress that I haven't read the last few pages of dialogue in detail, so no targeting intended. As with any major GW release there are some big pros and some big cons we're seeing thrown into stark relief here. Apologies for the wall of text. 

 

It's clear that GW have taken the opportunity offered to them by this release to give the Emperor's Children a very clear identity, which I think was absolutely the right decision. This identity is far from unrecognisable but is still very different in key ways to what we've seen in the past. The new EC lean almost exclusively into speed and melee, which are two traditional Slaaneshi characteristics, at the expense of almost all long-range firepower and what I'd loosely describe as 'traditional' Space Marine flexibility (noting that the Cults were always a niche part of the broader CSM faction, but up until this point they'd always had access to key and iconic vehicles like Predators and Dreadnoughts). As a long-time CSM player and EC fan there are some parts of this that I don't like, such as traditionally long-ranged weaponry like blastmasters losing half their range and iconic wargear like the doom siren being relegated to a minor ability on a single character's datasheet. I'd have preferred a much stronger focus on Noise Marines/sonic weaponry across the army, though it's possible future additions will play into this aspect of the Legion, and my dream of Sonic Cult Terminators isn't dead yet. Ultimately this is just something I'll have to get used to. Rules are more temporary than they've ever been in modern, ephemeral 40k, but this new laser-focused version of EC is probably here to stay. 

 

Broader datasheet changes are mixed. I've already mentioned sonic weaponry so won't go into that, but losing other bits of flavour like the resurrection mechanic or screaming output from Lucius the Eternal's armour isn't great. Very glad to see the Disharmonist being able to take a sonic blaster and I am keen to see the remaining datasheets to get a better sense of the army as a whole. As previously stated I'm disappointed there is no Noise Marine detachment but some of the options on display look like tons of fun, even if some mechanics don't quite feel like they're going to work smoothly (Slaanesh's Chosen feels like one of those awesome in concept, not so awesome in execution kind of rulesets). 

 

The loss of options was expected, but not to this degree. I've made numerous posts noting my opinion that this was a sacrifice worth making to get our own bespoke book, but I wasn't expecting to lose options like Predators and Dreadnoughts (serves me right), and to be honest I'm struggling to understand why GW went this far. The DG losing something like a Vindicator made sense when they had their own equivalent in the Plagueburst Crawler, but we have no such equivalent(s). Maybe these are being removed because there are strange EC variants over the horizon, but if so, why remove them now and not then; maybe there are broader plans for updated vehicles with dedicated CSM variants; maybe it's as simple as GW deciding that EC are the short range speedy melee army and anything that sits back and shoots doesn't belong in the list. Why have we kept Land Raiders but not Predators? Why do we have a Maulerfiend and not a Forgefiend? Why do we have a Heldrake but no Defiler? Why do we have a Sorcerer but no Terminator Sorcerer, and a Lord equivalent but not Lord in Terminator Armour? A designer's commentary or interview that shed light on the thought process behind the project would be great, but GW is and always has been horrific when it comes to communication.

 

The addition of daemons has also not gone the way I'd hoped, but we know an article on that is forthcoming later this week. I'd have preferred the daemons to be more thoroughly integrated into the army beyond a single detachment but I also understand that this is Codex: Emperor's Children, not Codex: Slaanesh. Interesting ramifications for the much-speculated future of daemons as others have noted. At least the mixed EC/Daemons detachment looks like a lot of fun, though I still long for the days where I could have a Keeper of Secrets possess one of my marines and burst out of him mid-battle. 

 

Overall while I have mixed feelings about how GW has gone about haphazardly executing their vision, which isn't unusual, I'm still really happy, but can understand why some people will be disappointed. After years of waiting EC have been broken out into their own book and are receiving an amazing set of models, accompanied by what looks to be some great art, and hopefully accompanied by some good additions to existing lore. Whether GW capitalises on the faction's potential and fills the gaping holes they've left there remains to be seen, but it presumably won't be in the short term. 

 

And as for all of the bizarre unit omissions, at least I can turn around and play these filthy degenerates in 30k in the era before they'd apparently lost the keys to their Predators. 

[BitsHammer]

On one hand I wish GW would let their toys mix because there was real room to look at the Hedonites line and bring units over as human cultists and Slaangor. Yes it's fantasy stuff in space but considering we have Space Wizards I would have been down for it.

 

And while I appreciate they want to give EC an identity the lack of a Sunkiller style unit (long ranged heavy weapons specialists from the OG Legion) is a bit frustrating. Like there was room there to bring them in as a small unit that could shoot like heck but that's really it.

 

I guess in my mind (maybe because of the Bile novels) I imagined them a lot like Eldar where they traded their generalists for each unit leaning into a single thing as that unit pursued perfection in that singular role.

 

I don't hate the faction, rather I am actually.ore interested in these than any other release this edition but I am rather lost on why they threw out so many of the older ideas.

 

Don't get me started on how no one in the game is allowed to use dangerous narcotics that can hurt you some of the time either. I have a small rant on that kind of thing but it doesn't belong here.

[LSM]

I wish I could mega-agree with Marshal Loss' post - summed up a lot of my thoughts, so thankfully I don't have to write them up myself.

 

One positive that I want to hit on: I love Thrill Seekers as an Army Rule. Extremely flavourful, while being (relatively) simple. 

 

//

 

I think that the apparent lack of communication between the model designers and the rules team is really apparent when it comes to the Noise Marine kit.

• It has six Sonic Blasters, two Blastmasters, two Power Swords, and two Screamer Pistols. 
• Two Noise Marines can take Blastmasters - which are flatly superior to Sonic Blasters. Much like Bolt Pistols vs Plasma Pistols, you are "wrong" if you take all Sonic Blasters. Thus, the kit only needed four Sonic Blasters or the rules team actually needed to make it a meaningful choice. (ie. up a Sonic Blaster's AP to -2, make the Varied Frequency's AP -1 and S4, and make the Single Frequency 2 shots and BS 4+ [Heavy]. Or something with other keywords, so that there is some world in which you might choose a Sonic Blaster over a Blastmaster.)
• One member of the squad can take a Power Sword or Screamer Pistol - why give us two, with barely any visual distinction? Why not a Power Spear, or Power Claw, or make them actually look distinctly different? Or get rid of the "Disharmonist" altogether (why do they have a special name? They don't do anything), and just let up to two Noise Marines take sword and pistol.
• All of the models have what seem to be intended to be Doom Sirens. (They have the little "sonic juice" canisters attached to them, the art has a psychosonic effect, etc.) This has absolutely zero rules presence. How about: for every Noise Marine within Engagement Range at the end of the Fight Phase, on a 4+ deal 1 MW to a selected enemy unit. Or a Fights First Aura. Or just make Doom Sirens a weapon again, as they have been since 1996.

//

 

6 hours ago, Rain said:

The 2nd Edition Chaos codex did this [one massive book that lets you field any traitor force] very well...

 

Ehhhh... If Ahriman was commanding your force, you could only take Tzeentch Marked Characters, Thousands Sons (Terminators), and Tzeentch Daemons. Likewise with Khârn, he could only be your commander if you ran nothing but Khorne Berzerkers (Terminators) and Khorne Daemons. (Slaanesh and Nurgle didn't have Cult Characters, but I imagine they'd have had similar explicit rules for Emperor's Children and Deathguard if they existed.) Granted, the roster was rather small, so that mainly just meant no Bikers, Veterans, or Chaos Marines... Oh, and no Orks, of course.

 

[BitsHammer]

Conspiracy theory: the reason we get 2x of the options per Noise Marine kit is because it's a unit of 3 and will be sold that way like other elite Marine units.

 

I know GW hasn't done it for every unit but they keep doing it so I am betting we got doubled up sprues.

 

At least Slaanesh's favored number is six so it works better here.