Autumn 2024 Balance Update

[DemonGSides]

48 minutes ago, LightningClawLeonard said:

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense that being shorter and having a much better melee option helps it survive ranged and be more useful in combat. With my lack of experience with 10th I just saw that on paper the Ballistus is Movement +2, Toughness +1, Wounds +4, Objective Control +1 over the box dread and has 2x Attacks and Strength +1 with its lascannon and missile launcher over the box dread’s equivalents.

Well, ain't no one playing Box Dreads either (In the competitive sense).

The dread to be right now is firmly Redemptor, with some leanings towards Brutalis; Redemptor is Swiss Army Knife on Steroids, in that it has pretty good shooting and pretty good melee (Especially Tank Shock Stratagem, very yummy).  Brutalis is just an insane blender if it gets in, and has movement abilities, the which are important in how the game is played in 10th.  It's not about deleting everything, it's about contesting points and fulfilling objectives, so mobility is always welcome.

There's definitely play with Ballistusx2, but then there's foot print to worry about, and at that point the cost may be better stuck elsewhere with something that has better movement (Vehicles), or something with more oomph behind it (Also probably a vehicle).

 

There's definitely probably some of Tokugawa's thoughts that are true (in that there's probably not much impetus to make Box Dreads good coming down from on high), but I think, as you stated, there's some actual benefits to the Castefarum that are less obvious from the datasheet.

Edited October 16 by DemonGSides

[SkimaskMohawk]

40k balance changes have long felt like those from a failing live service game. Conceptually simple to update, yet takes forever. Often fails to meet player expectations due to a fun combo of understaffed team, blinders of how the game is supposed to be played, and upper management meddling. 

 

Look at dark tides first year where there was glacial improvements because the launch version was made to be very player-hostile and grindy to artificially boost retention. Same with diablo 4 when their second balance patch nerfed player characters to again, artificially extend play time. 

 

So stuff is getting nerfed in 40k. They're often list staples, but they're not staples because they're open; they're just the best option in a given role for their points. Increasing their points wont diversify the unit selection; it'll just cause a pivot to the next best option. And that's the point, because the actual goal is to sell more models, and competitive 40k players will drop a bundle to keep up their chances of winning (especially since the game is so lethal and snowbally, the last thing want to do is handicap themselves before even hitting the table).

 

We all have opinions on how fun modern 40k is and how good of a game it is. But I think it's important to recognize that all the frustration points are mainly consequences of GW trying to sell as many models to as wide an audience as possible. Modern 40k (basically since detachments came out in 7th) hasn't ever held my attention for more than a year tops, but I'm not going to dunk on my friends for still enjoying it. It's clearly a completely different game with a different appeal and design decisions behind it.

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Well, ain't no one playing Box Dreads either (In the competitive sense).

 

*gestures at Helbrute*

 

I'm genuinely surprised we haven't gotten Redemptor Chassis character updates yet, especially since IIRC they walked back the lore that Redemptor Chassis Dreads burn out the Pilot too fast.

_{I'm also surprised that we haven't gotten Special Dreads for the Cult Marines yet, but that's not exactly related to this discussion.}

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, SkimaskMohawk said:

So stuff is getting nerfed in 40k. They're often list staples, but they're not staples because they're open; they're just the best option in a given role for their points. Increasing their points wont diversify the unit selection; it'll just cause a pivot to the next best option. And that's the point, because the actual goal is to sell more models, and competitive 40k players will drop a bundle to keep up their chances of winning (especially since the game is so lethal and snowbally, the last thing want to do is handicap themselves before even hitting the table).

 

This analogy works unless the army in question is Thousand Sons, where pretty much all of our army power is backloaded into the Cabal Points mechanic and the things that make Thousand Sons feel like actual Thousand Sons (i.e. Rubrics, Sorcerers, Ahriman & Magnus) are all tied into that mechanic too.
So when GW look at our army, they see everyone spamming Rubrics and Sorcs, decide we need "diversify" our unit choice and slap a points increase on everything with Cabal Points, only to see the Thousand Sons players start cutting everything that's not Rubrics and Sorcs because that's what we're playing the faction to use.

 

We're not able to pivot to the "next best thing" because for us that's either Scarab Occult Terminators (who, despite all the nerfs to Rubrics and Sorcs, simply don't have the power or cheapness to fill the boots left behind by said Rubrics and Sorcs) or Tzaangors (I will refrain from commenting on Tzaangors other than to note that it's particularly noticeable that GW keeps pushing Tzaangors so hard despite widespread animosity towards the Goats from both 40k and AoS Tzeentch players).

[Wormwoods]

Tzaangors weren't even fun to kill in Space Marine 2. 

[Tokugawa]

13 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

Tzaangors weren't even fun to kill in Space Marine 2. 

IMO they are by far THE most annoying enemy type, before the durability of their shields nerfed.

[Wormwoods]

Would it be better if you swapped out Tzaangors for like... Regular chaos marines and cultists? Much like with Grey Knights and Deathwatch, my instinct has always been that cult legionnaires are best as additions to less hyper-special armies. Y'know, do a traitor warband that includes a group of Rubrics led by a sorcerer, and a group of plague marines, but the core remains less heavily god-sworn lads.

 

This is a bit off topic, I guess.

[Indy Techwisp]

3 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

Would it be better if you swapped out Tzaangors for like... Regular chaos marines and cultists? Much like with Grey Knights and Deathwatch, my instinct has always been that cult legionnaires are best as additions to less hyper-special armies. Y'know, do a traitor warband that includes a group of Rubrics led by a sorcerer, and a group of plague marines, but the core remains less heavily god-sworn lads.

 

This is a bit off topic, I guess.

 

We used to be that, then we got split off in 7th and now GW cannot put the Dust back in the Rubric.

That said IMO a lot of T-Sons players would be happy if we got "God Specific Mortals" that weren't just AoS imports.

 

Also briefly RE: Rubrics + Plague Marines.
Tzeentch and Nurgle hate eachother more than Khorne hates Sorcery, so the only way you're getting Rubrics and Plague Marines in the same army is via a 3rd party ordering them both to deal with it.
That's why Base CSM can do that in game already, because the Black Legion do it a bunch in Lore.

 

Also briefly: Rubrics in CSM.

A 10 Man Flamer RuBrick is one of the best units Base CSM can field, which almost certainly doesn't help Rubrics in the Overused Unit department.

[Wormwoods]

5 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Also briefly: Rubrics in CSM.

A 10 Man Flamer RuBrick is one of the best units Base CSM can field, which almost certainly doesn't help Rubrics in the Overused Unit department.

I'll be honest, I forgot that they could still be used that way. Not enough chaos players in my usual hobby group, and those that are all run full godsquads.

[Emperor Ming]

3 hours ago, ThePenitentOne said:

What do folks think is coming for Miracle Dice in the next update?

Prob a reduction in generation

 

MD generation was already cut by 50% from last dex

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, Emperor Ming said:

Prob a reduction in generation

 

MD generation was already cut by 50% from last dex

 

I'm expecting SoB to somehow sidestep the changes entirely or even get a buff to it.

Tho that's 'cause I think GW don't really get how good Miracle Dice are currently.

[ThePenitentOne]

59 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I'm expecting SoB to somehow sidestep the changes entirely or even get a buff to it.

Tho that's 'cause I think GW don't really get how good Miracle Dice are currently.

Are they though?

 

As Emperor Ming says, generation has been dramatically reduced (except for the Army of Faith Detachment). Like, they may be good, but you aren't getting many over the course of the game. In the Index, BSS units in range of controlled objectives automatically gave you an MD, and the Simulacrum gave you MD for killing enemy units.

 

Now you have to roll 4+ to get the MD, and that ability, neutered as it is, is also conferred by the Simulacrum not the unit, so you miss the bonus MD for killing as well.

 

If you aren't playing the Army of Faith, you're getting 10 MD for a game that goes 5 turns, plus one for every one of your units that dies. You never really get to build up a pool until your units start to die, and by then you don't have enough units to use dice from the death pool.

 

So I'm hoping they IMPROVE MD generation, particularly for detachments other than AoF.

[Scribe]

8 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Yeah, overall this update sounds like a complete disaster and further proof that the "living system" experiment (and 10th in general) has been a failure. Like we needed any more of that...

 

A game where your 'unit' added is pushing $100. Time (worth more than money for an adult) prep, scheduling, painting...oh whats that, the 'balance pass' has made it so I cannot afford my new unit I just spent a month of my adult 'free time' working on?

 

Yikes.

[SkimaskMohawk]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

This analogy works unless the army in question is Thousand Sons, where pretty much all of our army power is backloaded into the Cabal Points mechanic and the things that make Thousand Sons feel like actual Thousand Sons (i.e. Rubrics, Sorcerers, Ahriman & Magnus) are all tied into that mechanic too.
So when GW look at our army, they see everyone spamming Rubrics and Sorcs, decide we need "diversify" our unit choice and slap a points increase on everything with Cabal Points, only to see the Thousand Sons players start cutting everything that's not Rubrics and Sorcs because that's what we're playing the faction to use.

 

We're not able to pivot to the "next best thing" because for us that's either Scarab Occult Terminators (who, despite all the nerfs to Rubrics and Sorcs, simply don't have the power or cheapness to fill the boots left behind by said Rubrics and Sorcs) or Tzaangors (I will refrain from commenting on Tzaangors other than to note that it's particularly noticeable that GW keeps pushing Tzaangors so hard despite widespread animosity towards the Goats from both 40k and AoS Tzeentch players).

 

I'm pretty sure everything I said still applies. Again, the bad live service games updates don't really do much to actually make things funner or more satisfying for the player; they work against the player to hit some inscrutable internal metric. 

 

So it doesn't matter if it's undermining the faction rules; either theyre mandated to make the most bought/fielded units undesirable to create churn (management meddling), or they think that simply being taken a lot is a sign of that unit being op (having blinders on with how the game should be played). You basically say it's the former by their constant pushing of tzangors and a broad refusal to buy them.

 

Unfortunately, unlike some of these live service games that got shamed into changing stuff to actually be enjoyable, GW is very stubborn, very profitable, and not able to be review bombed for their decisions. It's just going to continue doing whatever it wants, so expect a cycle of brief happiness as the units and armies you like get to be used in more serious play, and then frustration as they're discouraged. 

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

We used to be that, then we got split off in 7th and now GW cannot put the Dust back in the Rubric.

That said IMO a lot of T-Sons players would be happy if we got "God Specific Mortals" that weren't just AoS imports.

 

Also briefly RE: Rubrics + Plague Marines.
Tzeentch and Nurgle hate eachother more than Khorne hates Sorcery, so the only way you're getting Rubrics and Plague Marines in the same army is via a 3rd party ordering them both to deal with it.
That's why Base CSM can do that in game already, because the Black Legion do it a bunch in Lore.

 

Also briefly: Rubrics in CSM.

A 10 Man Flamer RuBrick is one of the best units Base CSM can field, which almost certainly doesn't help Rubrics in the Overused Unit department.

The Cult Legions can absolutely be added back to the main codex and have flavor. The 7th Edition Codex with the terribly mandatory Legion supplement proved that (granted the internal balance was bad, but it proved everything can be condensed while giving each Legion all units and not be broken). That doesn't sell more paper though. 

[Scribe]

6 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

mandatory Legion supplement

 

Yeah, I wonder if I kept that.

 

I doubt it, but it did prove just how simple it would be to actually give the Legions some depth without there own release which...looking at World Eaters was an outright disaster.

[TheArtilleryman]

31 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

The Cult Legions can absolutely be added back to the main codex and have flavor. The 7th Edition Codex with the terribly mandatory Legion supplement proved that (granted the internal balance was bad, but it proved everything can be condensed while giving each Legion all units and not be broken). That doesn't sell more paper though. 

 

I’ve said this before - we need one massive loyalist SM and one massive traitor marine book like in HH. Stop all these extra codexes and have it all in one place.

[calgar101]

43 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

 

I’ve said this before - we need one massive loyalist SM and one massive traitor marine book like in HH. Stop all these extra codexes and have it all in one place.

A HH black book style tome is needed in my opinion. 

[TheArtilleryman]

37 minutes ago, calgar101 said:

A HH black book style tome is needed in my opinion. 

I know it won’t happen though because it will interfere with the whole “we must be releasing new armies all the time” thing. But it would definitely be better.

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I’ve said this before - we need one massive loyalist SM and one massive traitor marine book like in HH. Stop all these extra codexes and have it all in one place.

So long as it doesn't mean losing units I'm on board with that.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

 

I’ve said this before - we need one massive loyalist SM and one massive traitor marine book like in HH. Stop all these extra codexes and have it all in one place.

Yeah I got attacked on Reddit for suggesting that as apparently they love every kit getting bespoke rules. Heaven forbid I want someone's Carcharodons army to be able to use a Death Company equivalent of a marine that went nuts. 

[TheArtilleryman]

7 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah I got attacked on Reddit for suggesting that as apparently they love every kit getting bespoke rules. Heaven forbid I want someone's Carcharodons army to be able to use a Death Company equivalent of a marine that went nuts. 

I didn’t quite mean that - you’d still have specialist units restricted to their respective chapters, but you’d have a section with all the generic units and sections for each main chapter with all their special units. That’s how it works with the HH Liber books.

 

Technically though you could do that now. You can paint your guys however you like and use the Blood Angels list. You just can’t mix BA and Space Wolves, for example.

Edited October 17 by TheArtilleryman

[Brother Carpenter]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I didn’t quite mean that - you’d still have specialist units restricted to their respective chapters, but you’d have a section with all the generic units and sections for each main chapter with all their special units. That’s how it works with the HH Liber books.

 

Technically though you could do that now. You can paint your guys however you like and use the Blood Angels list. You just can’t mix BA and Space Wolves, for example.

Like the old armagheddon codex with bt, speed freek and steel legion add on rules.

 

I thinkt the old BA, SW and DA codexes also took that approach.

 

[DemonGSides]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah I got attacked on Reddit for suggesting that as apparently they love every kit getting bespoke rules. Heaven forbid I want someone's Carcharodons army to be able to use a Death Company equivalent of a marine that went nuts. 

 

Why can't they?  Who would be upset about that? Are people so beholden to a corporation that they've fully abandoned independent thought?

 

Edited October 17 by DemonGSides

[Xenith]

16 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

It's weird anyone feels whipped. The overall increase in most lists is about 100 points. Can't imagine being this upset about it. 

 

Because outside of an army using magnus, all those units are pretty weak on their own, so yes, unit spamming tourney players will be brought in line, however the casual player gets messed around.

 

Either way, it ignores the actual problem with the index, and why all those units are so good: Doombolt. 

 

All you have to do is make doombolt 9CaP, and suddenly people can't do 2 of them + temporal surge in a 2k army anymore, thus killing a lot of the lethality and speed. Make Lord of forbidden lore 50pts, or make it a one use only free ritual, and you kill of Ahriman spam and double doombolt, bringing TS back in line.

 

I'm annoyed because these changes show a fundamental misunderstanding of why TS are doing well, and furthermore underlines that outside magnus's buffs, the army is lacking damage potential. The 2D6 mortals from double d'bolt is the main damage source for the army, the rest pretty much just having bolters. 

 

 

30 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Are people so beholden to a corporation that they've fully abandoned independent thought?

 

 

:shifty eyes at Apple: