GW has a plan for the Lost Primarchs (and I think I've figured out part of it)

[Tawnis]

The Lost Legions

 

We all know that originally, there was no story for the lost Primarchs; that they were both meant to be a mystery, even if the original reasoning behind it is still debated. However, there has been a shift in how GW has been dealing with the lost Primarchs and their legions recently that’s led me to believe that they have decided internally on what exactly happened to them and when. They are simply keeping it to themselves; possibly forever, or possibly for some future release. Based on the evidence I’ve found, sometime before the release of HH 2^nd edition, they decided internally not only the fate of the lost Primarchs, but (at least the broad stokes of) the stories of their Legions as well.

 

What started me on this trip down this giant rabbit hole was a rather innocuous little retcon. A simple conversation between Big E and Corax upon his discovery. Originally the 2 lost Primarchs had already been lost by the time Corax was found, however, the much more recent official timeline places the XI Primarch being discovered in 927 M30, 5 years after Corax’s. This stood out to me because why would they bother to change something this minor? If the book had come out second, I could see it as a little lore slip, but this was an official timeline done long after the book, so they would have known they were changing it. So, why change it if they didn’t have a reason to do so? It would make sense if the XI Primarch HAD to be found after Corax for a future story to take place. As such, any references to the Lost Primarchs before the release of HH 2^nd edition, are treated here as having possibly been retconned in favour of more recent lore on the Lost Primarchs.

 

I know that is a bit of a stretch on its own, but it’s what sent me off on my deep dive and I found a lot. We’ve been getting so much new lore on the end of the Unification Wars and the Solar Reclamation, as well as some tidbits directly about the lost legions and their Primarchs. All taken together, they start to paint a picture, not so much about the Primarchs which are often the focus, but about the Legions that they led. We know that they took part in the Unification Wars, the Solar Reclamation and the Great Crusade, and as GW fills out the lore of these eras, there are intentional gaps that can be found that perfectly fit one or both of these Legions. So, if you’re still with me after this long intro, I hope you get as much enjoyment out of reading it as I did researching it.

 

The First Founding / Unification Wars

 

Thanks to recent 30k lore, we’ve gotten a pretty complete breakdown of the founding of nearly all of the Space Marine Legions and more specifically, the populations & cultures from which they drew recruits. For everyone’s reference, they are as follows (I’m going to use their future Legion names for ease of understanding):

1. Dark Angels: All of Terra.

2. (See Below).

3. Emperor’s Children: Europan Hives.

4. Iron Warriors: Oro Plataeu of Sek Amerak.
5. White Scars: Thulean Basin and other Nomadic Tribes.

6. Space Wolves: (Trifoil, see below).

7. Imperial Fists: All of Terra, overlapping other recruitment grounds.

8. Night Lords: Prison Complexes across Terra.

9. Blood Angels: Mutants from across Terra that no other Legion would take.

10. Iron Hands: Quavateen Plate Cities, The Blocs of Solus Stelax, but Primarily Albia.

11. (See Below).

12. World Eaters: All of Terra, recruits were the most aggressive.

13. Ultramarines: Newly Conquered Zones: Mid-Afrik Hives, Reavers of the Caucus Wastes, Maglev Clans of Panpocro, Saragon Enclave.

14. Death Guard: Old Albia.

15. Thousand Sons: Achaemid Empire, Koshi Domain, Enclaves of Ouse.

16. Luna Wolves: Jutrugan bowl and Samastia Sub-plate Slums.

17. Word Bearers: Newly Conquered Zones, (See Below)

18. Salamanders: (Trifoil, see below).

19. Raven Guard: Xzerek Tribes of the Asiatic Dust Field.

20. Alpha Legion: (Trifoil, see below).

 

Everything that is directly stated above covers most of Pre-Unity Terra, with a few notable exceptions, so lets take care of those one by one.

 

Word Bearers: Unlike the Ultramaries, while having the same recruiting style of coming from obliterated opposition states, the Word Bearers recruiting grounds are not directly stated. However, there are a few notable regions that are not on the Ultramarines tally that heavily resisted unification. So we can reasonably assume that they drew their recruits from Ursh, the Yndonesic Bloc, and the Pan-Pacific Empire. Not only were these some of the areas most heavily exterminated, but they also boarder each other, giving them a somewhat consistent recruiting zone.

 

The Trifoil: While their origins technically remain a mystery, it is easy to take these off the list:

- The Space Wolves were very likely primarily recruited from the Nordyc conclaves. They’re the space vikings, it’s pretty obvious.

- The Salamanders were very likely recruited from Hy Brasil. The military force in the region was known as The Dracos and they wore green scaled armour. Not terribly subtle. In addition, Malcador and Big E were not fans of the leader of Hy Brasil Dalmoth Kyn and Malcador specifically did everything he could to prevent the man form gaining a seat as part of the High Lords of Terra. In universe in makes sense that they would hide that fact that such an accomplished Astartes Legion was from this part of Terra to keep him from using it for political clout.

- The Alpha Legion, depending on what lore is “true”, were either the first or the last, but either way, they had very small recruitment numbers that likely were pulled across all of Terra so that it would be easier for them to infiltrate. Either that, or if they were the first, they could have come from the Emperor’s origin territory of Himalaysia.

 

Discounting a few zones that only fell after the creation of all the Astartes Legions, like The Ethnarcy, Orioc, and Urartu, that leaves with only two Terran polities, Merica and Sa’ Afrik; and two legions, the II, the XI. For reasons that we’ll get into as further things fall into place, I believe that the II Legion was founded in Merica, and the XI in Sa’ Afrik. While both of these regions have VERY little told about them despite being huge nations on pre-unity Terra, we do know a few tidbits here and there.

 

One of the things that always struck me as odd was that while they could carry out any type of warfare, each of the Legions seemed to be created for a specific specialist purpose or function, things that were necessary for the coming crusade. Yet, no Legion was a specialist in void warfare, and specifically ship to ship engagements or zero gravity engagements, something that would be incredibly vital in the Crusade to come. While some like the Imperial Fists and Iron Hands boasted great fleets, sealed environment combat wasn’t their MO. One of the few things we do know about Merica, is that it was in a comparatively decent state during the age of strife, consisting of many hive cities literally insulated from the radiation soaked world. Their internal lives were so well off, they were known to throw extravagant parties and dances. I think that it can be reasonably inferred that the people of this polity would have had a special knack for living and fighting in the confines of sealed environments and that is what ended up being the general operational style of the II Legion.

 

Much like our current knowledge of the II and XI, much less is known about Sa’Afrik than even the traces we know about Merica. All that is known is that it the World Eaters helped to conquer them, but were pulled back before the conquest was done. Nothing is said about their weapons or style of warfare other than that they were heavily entrenched and were able to put up a good fight against one of the most vicious Astartes Legions.

 

While this last bit is very much supposition on my part, it does help answer a few questions later, which is how I came to the possibility. I think that the XI legion were seekers. Where the White Scars were explorers, the Alpha Legion spies, the Imperial Fists builders, ect... the XI’s job could have been to recover lost technology from before the Age of Strife and either re-purpose it for use in the Imperium; or, if it were too dangerous, destroy it. However, unlike the Iron Hands who coveted all technology, or the Thousand Sons, who coveted all knowledge, I think this was likely more specialized. The Emperor knew of so many useful tools and dangerous threats across the galaxy, it’s not unreasonable to assume that a legion was specifically tasked with locating and securing them. This is MUCH more of a stretch than the rest of this, and is more of a gut feeling, but it does line up with a few other missing pieces later on, so while circumstantial at best, this is my educated guess as to the nature and purpose of the XI.

 

The Solar Reclamation

 

Much like the latter days of unification, we’ve recently been given quite a lot of lore on the Solar Reclamation and what each legion was doing during this time period. So, much like with their founding, the truth can be found in the parts that are suspiciously absent from the records of the Solar Reclamation. However, there isn’t quite as much information on the Solar Reclamation, so we’ll have to fill in a few gaps with educated guesswork.

 

For overview, here is what each of the legions were up to during this time period:

1. Dark Angels: Posted at the rim of the system in the Ort Cloud to prevent any enemies of unity from escaping into the wider galaxy.

2. (See Below)

3. Emperor’s Children: Primarily leading unaugmented troops.

4. Iron Warriors: Suffered heavy losses during the pacification of Venus.

5. White Scars: Not listed, but believed to be aiding the Dark Angels in the Ort Could.

6. Space Wolves: Kept in reserve during unification and Solar Reclamation.

7. Imperial Fists: Pacification of Luna and Defence of the Saturnine Ordos.

8. Night Lords: Focused on keeping already compliant populations on Terra in check.

9. Blood Angels: Conquest of Neptune, suffered minimal losses.

10. Iron Hands: Purgation of the Xenos “Scythers” and “Lyasx” confirmed to be their only major engagements during this time.

11. (See Below)

12. World Eaters: Kept in reserve during the Solar Reclamation.

13. Ultramarines: Pacification of Luna.

14. Death Guard: No records of their conflicts during this time, but they were confirmed to be active.

15. Thousand Sons: Founded during the Solar Reclamation, no record of being used during.

16. Luna Wolves: Pacification of Luna.

17. Word Bearers: No direct Solar Reclamation conflicts listed, but focused most on religious human populations. Could have still been finishing purgation operations on Terra.

18. Salamanders: Critically low on manpower after the Tempest Galleries. Held in reserve.

19. Raven Guard: Suffered heavy losses scouring of the Jovian Range with many recalled to Terra after.

20. Alpha Legion: Small in number, no record of conflicts. Likely in support of other legions behind the scenes.

 

Three main worlds stand out as being absent from these records. Mercury, Jupiter and Pluto. While Mercury and Pluto are barely footnotes in the history of the Solar Reclamation, the rescue and incorporation of the Jovian Void Clans was a major conflict in the Solar Reclamation, yet it is one in which the only Legion participating is listed as the XIX and only for a single bloody engagement.

 

The Jovian Void Clans survived in a handful of settlements and orbital yards in the moons around Jupiter and were in possession of critical infrastructure that had to be taken intact. Given this, I believe that the two Legions primarily in charge of this campaign would have been the II and the XIX. With the second’s expertise in sealed environment combat, and the XIX skill at stealth and sabotage, they were ideally suited to route out the Xenos that had taken control of the clans. While the XIX suffered heavy losses in the battle of Lysithia, the rest of the conflict is shrouded in mystery. What is known is that eventually the Jovian clans were delivered to the Imperium relatively intact, leading us to assume that Lysithia was the largest engagement in this conflict.

 

Mercury is barely a footnote in the Solar reclamation, but we do know that every world was controlled and by some power in the system. The fact that it is completely glossed over makes me highly suspect that it was one of the lost legions that was assigned to Mercury, and I believe it was the XI. What we do know about the planet is that it was a dumping ground for lost technology with raider and pirates scavenging the ruins for anything useful. Knowing what could be found there, the Emperor couldn’t have trusted the task to the Solar Auxillia, it would be too risky, and with the treaty of Olympus only just signed, he would still want to have as much technological independence from Mars as possible. He would have had to send the Astartes in to secure critical assets from Mercury and purge anything that got in their way.

 

The last great conflict of the solar reclamation was another operation shrouded in mystery. The war moon of Sedna at the bounds of the solar system was purged by no less than 8 Legions in 803 M30, though of those 8, only the Dark Angels have been canonically confirmed to have participated. However, as we know what almost all the other Legions were up to at that time, we can determine by process of elimination, who took part in the conflict.

 

1. Dark Angels: Confirmed canonically to have participated. (Confirmed)

2. (See Below)

3. Emperor’s Children: Scattered about various Imperial Army units leading unaugmented troops. (Absent)

4. Iron Warriors: Suffered heavy losses during the pacification of Venus and likely would not yet have been able to muster a sufficient force yet to be thrown into another meat grinder campaign. (Unlikely)

5. White Scars: Already leading the exploration fleets pushing the boundary of Imperial Space, none left near Terra. (Absent).

6. Space Wolves: Has been confirmed that their first engagement was at Delswaan in 807 M30. (Absent)

7. Imperial Fists: Already suffered heavy losses between the pacification of Luna and the campaigns on Saturn. (Unlikely)

8. Night Lords: Still deployed mostly on Terra at this time, so it’s possible they could have been called out to Sedna, but this isn’t really a Terror Troops style mission. (Possible)

9. Blood Angels: Suffered very few losses during the Solar reclamation, coming out stronger than before. They would be in the perfect position to assist. (Likely)

10. Iron Hands: Purgation of the Xenos “Scythers” and “Lyasx” confirmed to be their only major engagements during the Solar Reclamation. In addition, it is canonically stated that their third major engagement was the Battle of Rust in 807 M30. (Absent).

11. (See Below)

12. World Eaters: They saw little action during the Solar Reclamation and would have been in a good position to assist in this campaign. (Likely)

13. Ultramarines: While they took moderate losses in the battle for Luna, their losses seem to have been small during the rest of the Solar Reclamation. (Possible.)

14. Death Guard: Unknown what they were up to at this time. (Probable)

15. Thousand Sons: While we know that psychic power was used heavily in the battle of Sedna, we also know that the Thousand Sons didn’t start manifesting their psycic abilities until 803, the same year, and are confirmed to have been scattered about the galaxy when this happened. (Absent.)

16. Luna Wolves: Horus was found in 801 M30 and since he wasn’t leading the Senda campaign, it can be infered that the Luna Wolves were not there either. (Absent.)

17. Word Bearers: Little is known about what they were up to at this time, but they did have sufficient manpower, though this would have been outside their direct MO of conversion/compliance operations. (Possible.)

18. Salamanders: Still critically low on manpower after the Tempest Galleries. (Unlikely)

19. Raven Guard: Many were lost at Lysithia and even more were mysteriously recalled to Terra afterwards, never to return. As such the legion was very low on manpower at this point. (Unlikely)

20. Alpha Legion: As per usual, we know little about the Alpha Legion, only that this type of massive large scale assault was anathema to their style of warfare. (Unlikely.)

 

Accounting for all the Legions that were confirmed, probable or possible, that gives us:

1. Dark Angels, 2. Night Lords, 3. Blood Angels, 4. World Eaters, 5. Ultramarines, 6. Death Guard, 7. Word Bearers, 8. ?

 

Based on the likelihood of the II being a void combat based legion, it’s almost certain that they participated in the battle for Sedna. In addition, while less certain, it’s certainly possible that the XI were there as well as there could easily be reasons why a couple of the possible inclusions above didn’t participate. This would also explain why the battle for Sedna has so few records, if the Lost Legions played a large role in it’s destruction, it would be impossible to talk about it without bringing them up.

 

 

The Great Crusade

 

I’m sure this is what a lot of you want to know about. We do have a lot less to go on once we get into the Great Crusade itself as it’s such a vast undertaking that we can’t use the same gaps in the story logic to find the paths of the Lost Legions like we did previously. However, there are a few notable things that stick out that do point in the direction of the Lost Primarchs. Where they were found, where they fought, and possibly how they became known as the Lost and the Purged.

 

We know for a fact that the II Primarch was found in the year 821 M30, only the third Primarch to be found, just after Leman Russ (unless you count Alpharius, but that’s irrelevant here). While it is certainly possible that they were found on an as yet unnamed world, there is a fan favourite planet not far from Fenris that fits the character of the II Legion and the void combat style of the warriors from Merica perfectly. Out of all the known 40k planets, the one that makes by far the most sense to be the home of the II Primarch is none other than Elysia, home of the famed Elysian Drop Troops.

 

We do know canonically, that the Legions belonging to the Lost Primarchs were not punished for the sins of their progenitors, so, following that logic, it makes sense that their home worlds could have been spared as well. Given all this and how fan reception to the idea would go over very well, Elysia is by far the most probable candidate for the II Legion’s Homeworld.

 

While the details have not been elaborated on, we do know that the II and XI Legions both took part in the Rangdan Xenocides, based on the time frame of these, the II Primarch was very likely present, though the XI Primarch had yet to be found. Some have suspected that the II Primarch could have been killed during the Xenocides, but based off evidence to follow, I consider that incredibly unlikely.

 

We know almost nothing about the XI Primarch save that he was discovered in 927 M30, it’s a suspiciously blank time for records of the Grate Crusade, with no major events taking place within +/- 5 Years of that date. Except for one. Also in 927 M30 is the heavily redacted account of the Cryptosi Purgation. Nothing is said about these aliens except that they were “meta-dimensional” creatures. However, in the Dark Heresy RPG, there is a race listed at the Cryptos. While they don’t directly call out to the Cryptosi Purgation, they are described as “etheric, pseudo-plasmic, gas-like” creatures without a solid physical form, which could be due to their meta-dimensional state. These creatures also have the capacity to hide within the bodies of humans, possibly feed of them, and control their actions.

 

While it is only guesswork based on the scraps of information we have, if the XI Primarch was discovered on this world, could it be possible that he was possessed by one of these Cryptos? They are very few in number and wouldn’t have been able to possess the entire Legion, or even a majority of it, only the senior officers from his home world. Even so, if this were true and it was eventually discovered, this would have been a grave enough disgrace to the Emperor and the Primarchs, that the XI would have been wiped from Imperial records and given the moniker of the Purged. Especially if all non-Terran members of the Legion were wiped out, just to be on the safe side.

 

Without the Rangdan Xenocides being a possibility, there is little direct evidence to the fate of the II Primarch. However, there is one slight direction we’ve been pointed in. We know that the II Primarch led an expedition to the Ymga Monolith at some point during The Great Crusade. While the Necrons were far from as active as they are now during the days of The Great Crusade, we do know that Trayzen was around and had an interest in collecting specimens from the Imperium, even entire Gene Seed banks as in the case of the III Legion. It’s not outside the realm of possibility that in researching this anti-warp devise, the II Primarch was ambushed by the Necrons and placed in one of their extra-dimensional prisons. This would have given him the moniker of the Lost, and could even be a way that GW could return him to 41^st Millennium if they so desire, they do certainly love making Primarchs. This would also explain why the Legion was still at such high troop compliment when it was absorbed into the XIII Legion, but more on that later.

 

There has long been suspicion that the two redacted lines in 965 M30 and 969 M30 that both read as redacted with a reference to the Space Wolves refer to the two Legions being censured and dealt with by the Space Woves. While this is a still possibility, and was the most probable dates until recently, a new bit of lore relating to the Lost Primarchs calls that into question.

 

There is a scene where Jaghati and Alpharius (my favourite Primarchs) along with Horus confront Malcador about the removal of the Lost Primarchs from Imperial Records. What makes this interesting (aside from the whole scene being fantastic) is that in this scene, the decree has happened very recently. However, we also know that Alpharius wasn’t officially discovered (and thus able to be openly present for this debate) until 981 M30, which puts this into conflict with the previous Space Wolf date theory.

 

This leaves us with two possibilities. Either a) The account with the Space Wolves has nothing to do with the Lost Primarchs (an easy things to state in the future if GW wants), or more interestingly b) The Lost Primarchs weren’t removed from Imperial records until at least 15 years after at least one of them was expunged. This I find fascinating because it would be a very interesting story to discover that they tried to live with the knowledge of what happened to the Lost and the Purged and it was in some way so untenable that it was decided that all records of them had to be erased. That it wasn’t done out of cruelty, but of some unknown necessity. If we look to our possible fates for them, it could have been the shame of the XI and/or the desire for the Primarchs to put the Crusade on hold to search for the II.

 

Fates of the Legions

 

Thanks to recent lore it’s been confirmed that the Lost Legions were spared the judgment that befell their Primarchs and heavily implied that the largest of the two Legions were incorporated into the Ultramarines while the Imperial Fists took on the smaller of the two. I think that these refer to the II and XI respectively and there may be a possibility that we already know some Lost Legion characters...

 

Most of the characters in HH get at least somewhat of a backstory, but for how prominent a character he was for a while, we know absolutely nothing about the past of Aeonid Thiel. We just know that he was a Sergeant with a clear talent that went beyond his rank, and that he had a very non-Ultramarine way of thinking that was enough for him to face official censure. It would make sense for someone who was Lost Legion to be more weary (weather he knew the origin of those thoughts or not) of Space Marines fighting each other. He also has a very good tactical sense when it come to boarding actions and zero-G combat, the most likely aptitude of the II. If there is any character we know that is Lost Legion, I’d place my bets on Thiel.

 

This one if far more of a stretch since, again, we know essentially nothing of the XI Legion, but it’s an interesting idea. I think that it’s possible that Sigismund could be Lost Legion. Hear me out here. We know that the Emperor was able to alter memories en-mass in regards to the Lost Legions, overwriting the perceptions of even the Primarchs. What if everything that we know about Sigusmund did happen, but just not as an Imperial Fist, if his Legion worked closely with the VII until their Primarch was found, then when he was purged they were folded into it? While we never learn what Dorn remembers when his memories are unsealed, it is shocking enough that he asks Malcador to re-seal them, to make him forget... what could be so bad? Could it be because his most elite and honoured warriors of the Templar Brotherhood and his favoured champion Sigismund aren’t actually Imperial Fists? Their famed use of rare weaponry could even be from the XI Legions possible role in seeking out such treasures? It’s a bit more of a stretch, but with how little we know of the XI, it’s still the most plausible angle for any character we currently know being part of them. Also the Black Templar are the only SM chapter with their own codex, it would be an easy way to have a “returned” Lost Legion get a codex without having to make another SM offshoot.

 

Wrap Up

 

So, yeah, that’s the idea. I know Warhammer lore is massive, so if there’s any info on the Lost Legions that I missed, or you have any other theories, please post about them. I love talking shop on these kinds of speculations! :D

[Ramell]

3 hours ago, Tawnis said:

heavily implied that the largest of the two Legions were incorporated into the Ultramarines while the Imperial Fists took on the smaller of the two

Where exactly is this implied? The only thing I recall is the novel The First Heretic, in which the rumour of the XIII absorbing the lost legions is purely in-universe speculation. A D-B had come on to the B&C to tell people to stop being idiots about it - the XIII never took in the II or the XI. 

Unless there's a more recent source that contradicts this that I've missed, you're way off the mark here.

 

The subsequent analysis also falls into the all too common trap of overly stereotyping legions and chapters. These guys do Thing X, therefore everyone who does Thing X must be those guys or directly related to them (and conversely, these guys only ever do Thing X, can't do Thing Y or Thing Z). 

[Lord_Ikka]

I would also like to know where you are getting your source material from. Is it just the HH 2.0 books? 

[Knightsword]

33 minutes ago, Ramell said:

Where exactly is this implied? The only thing I recall is the novel The First Heretic, in which the rumour of the XIII absorbing the lost legions is purely in-universe speculation. A D-B had come on to the B&C to tell people to stop being idiots about it - the XIII never took in the II or the XI. 

Unless there's a more recent source that contradicts this that I've missed, you're way off the mark here.

 

The subsequent analysis also falls into the all too common trap of overly stereotyping legions and chapters. These guys do Thing X, therefore everyone who does Thing X must be those guys or directly related to them (and conversely, these guys only ever do Thing X, can't do Thing Y or Thing Z). 

 

Dorn and Malcador have a conversation about this in one of the stories in Scions of Emperor (published 2019/2020, i think First Heretic was 2010ish?). To massively paraphrase, Malcador straight up tells Dorn the legions were too valuable a resource to waste and so rolled them into the Fists and Ultras after mind wiping all the legionaires, and then doing the same to Dorn and Guilliman after at both their requests. Dorn even complains that Malcador stole his memories so he temporarily undoes the mind wipe and Dorn is like holy  I understand we asked you to wipe our minds too.

[Karhedron]

The story where the fate of the 2 lost legions is confirmed is "The Chamber at the end of Memory". Interestingly, I gather that ADB always intended the conversation about the lost legions in "First Heretic" to be just in-universe gossip and not canon. He was rather surprised to find it later confirmed in someone else's story.

[Wormwoods]

13 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Interestingly, I gather that ADB always intended the conversation about the lost legions in "First Heretic" to be just in-universe gossip and not canon. He was rather surprised to find it later confirmed in someone else's story.

I'm so glad they decided to write all this like it was a long-running comic book series. Looking forward to 40K's Animal Man Grant Morrison run, that'll be great.

 

I'm sorry to say I've never encountered any in-universe explanation for, or exploration of the Lost Primarchs that was anywhere as interesting as 'it's a reference to the Roman Lost Legions' and 'it's so you can make something up yourself'. 

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Tawnis said:

What started me on this trip down this giant rabbit hole was a rather innocuous little retcon. A simple conversation between Big E and Corax upon his discovery. Originally the 2 lost Primarchs had already been lost by the time Corax was found, however, the much more recent official timeline places the XI Primarch being discovered in 927 M30, 5 years after Corax’s.

 

That conversation in "Deliverance Lost" was always ambiguous. The Emperor's words about 17 brothers could indicate that 2nd and 11th Primarchs had already been lost or that there were still 2 Primarchs left to find. This would tie in with Corax being the 18th found followed by the 11th Primarch and then Alpahrius. I do not view this as necessarily being a retcon.

Edited October 18 by Karhedron

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Tawnis said:

We know for a fact that the II Primarch was found in the year 821 M30, only the third Primarch to be found, just after Leman Russ (unless you count Alpharius, but that’s irrelevant here). 

 

How does that fit in with Wolfsbane though? IN that, it states that Ferrus was the 3rd Primarch to be found (again, ignoring Alpharius). Russ recalls that the Emperor honoured him for his first successful campaign and introduce Ferrus to the wider Imperium at the same time. Now granted we could put that down to the Emps memory wiping of the remaining Primarchs but even Dorn remembers their existence, if not their names.

[Felix Antipodes]

I like a lot of your speculation on the II and XI legions and their fates, some of which connects with my own fevered imaginings.  There are a few differences though.

 

Just on a quick look at where the Primarchs were found after their scattering, one one was recovered from Pacificus.  On the law of averages at least one, if not both were possibly recovered from this Segmentum.  I don’t mind the II/Elsyia connection as it ties together your other speculation.  I have also long suspected that Trayzen’s captive Primarch was II, not one of the loyalist nine lost over the millennia such as the Khan or Dorn.

 

As for the XIth, my own theory is that he, like Lorgar,  was also recovered from Pacificus and rejected the Emperor and his Imperium for whatever reason (though I don’t believe it was because of a fall to Chaos).  Your suggestion of a Xenos species physically or mentally overcoming him has merit.  There are several species in the lore that seem powerful enough to accomplish this.

This could also explain why Pacificus has been the most turbulent Segmentum over the millennia.  From the HH through the Terra Nova Interregnum to The Revolt of the False Emperor and the Sabbath Worlds Crusade it appears to have been in almost constant ferment against the Imperium.  Could this be echoes down the ages of the first turning against the Imperium of Man by the XIth Primarch?

 

 

[Karhedron]

33 minutes ago, Felix Antipodes said:

I have also long suspected that Trayzen’s captive Primarch was II, not one of the loyalist nine lost over the millennia such as the Khan or Dorn.

 

I am pretty sure the only Primarch in Trayzyn's collection is Clonegrim. When discussing the Primarchs, Trayzyn states that he once tried to add one to his collection. This wording suggests that he was unsuccessful. I think that the "giant in baroque power armour" is a Custodian (or possibly a Thunder Warrior) rather than a Primarch.

[Tawnis]

6 hours ago, Ramell said:

Where exactly is this implied? The only thing I recall is the novel The First Heretic, in which the rumour of the XIII absorbing the lost legions is purely in-universe speculation. A D-B had come on to the B&C to tell people to stop being idiots about it - the XIII never took in the II or the XI. 

Unless there's a more recent source that contradicts this that I've missed, you're way off the mark here.

 

The subsequent analysis also falls into the all too common trap of overly stereotyping legions and chapters. These guys do Thing X, therefore everyone who does Thing X must be those guys or directly related to them (and conversely, these guys only ever do Thing X, can't do Thing Y or Thing Z). 

 

From The Chamber at the End of Memory in 2020, a much more recent source. Malcador tells Dorn " 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'If fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.' "

 

While all the Legions can do anything, it is also very clear that each have their specializations and were created with those specializations in mind. 

 

 

[Tawnis]

6 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

I would also like to know where you are getting your source material from. Is it just the HH 2.0 books? 

 

It was a lot to list, anything in particular, I'll pull the source for you. In general the most recent sources are, HH 2.0, The Chamber at the End of Memory, and The Last Council, but there were obviously other's too. I specifically called out the RPG one since that was much more obscure source. 

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

That conversation in "Deliverance Lost" was always ambiguous. The Emperor's words about 17 brothers could indicate that 2nd and 11th Primarchs had already been lost or that there were still 2 Primarchs left to find. This would tie in with Corax being the 18th found followed by the 11th Primarch and then Alpahrius. I do not view this as necessarily being a retcon.

 

Yeah, turns out there was a comment the author made about it that I never found that was pointed out to me in another forum. So yea, it's not really a retcon, but it was more the thing that sparked my interest rather than a point of contention anyway...

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

How does that fit in with Wolfsbane though? IN that, it states that Ferrus was the 3rd Primarch to be found (again, ignoring Alpharius). Russ recalls that the Emperor honoured him for his first successful campaign and introduce Ferrus to the wider Imperium at the same time. Now granted we could put that down to the Emps memory wiping of the remaining Primarchs but even Dorn remembers their existence, if not their names.

Yes, that has to be the case. 

 

The official HH Timeline on their website shows a redacted Primarch being found 3rd on the list in 821 M30. While it doesn't state which, the Novel Fulgrim: The Palatine Aquilla states the the II was found before the XI. 

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Felix Antipodes said:

I like a lot of your speculation on the II and XI legions and their fates, some of which connects with my own fevered imaginings.  There are a few differences though.

 

Just on a quick look at where the Primarchs were found after their scattering, one one was recovered from Pacificus.  On the law of averages at least one, if not both were possibly recovered from this Segmentum.  I don’t mind the II/Elsyia connection as it ties together your other speculation.  I have also long suspected that Trayzen’s captive Primarch was II, not one of the loyalist nine lost over the millennia such as the Khan or Dorn.

 

As for the XIth, my own theory is that he, like Lorgar,  was also recovered from Pacificus and rejected the Emperor and his Imperium for whatever reason (though I don’t believe it was because of a fall to Chaos).  Your suggestion of a Xenos species physically or mentally overcoming him has merit.  There are several species in the lore that seem powerful enough to accomplish this.

This could also explain why Pacificus has been the most turbulent Segmentum over the millennia.  From the HH through the Terra Nova Interregnum to The Revolt of the False Emperor and the Sabbath Worlds Crusade it appears to have been in almost constant ferment against the Imperium.  Could this be echoes down the ages of the first turning against the Imperium of Man by the XIth Primarch?

 

 

 

What's the source where is says some were found in Pacificus, I couldn't find any reference to a specific location, that's pretty useful info if accurate. 

The whole thing with the Cryptos was up in the Halo Stars IIRC, so that might disprove that if it was the case since that's in Sigmentum Obscuris... 

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

I am pretty sure the only Primarch in Trayzyn's collection is Clonegrim. When discussing the Primarchs, Trayzyn states that he once tried to add one to his collection. This wording suggests that he was unsuccessful. I think that the "giant in baroque power armour" is a Custodian (or possibly a Thunder Warrior) rather than a Primarch.

True, it's very likely that Trayzen doesn't have the lost Primarch, but there are other Necron collectors, it's possible another has them or they were trapped in some other way.

[Helias_Tancred]

I love this!

[lansalt]

13 hours ago, Tawnis said:

The war moon of Sedna at the bounds of the solar system was purged by no less than 8 Legions in 803 M30, though of those 8, only the Dark Angels have been canonically confirmed to have participated.

I vaguely recall the Black Books listing the UM among those, but the UM 4th Company LE Legion Herald (pretty much a Remus Ventanus prototype) clearly had SEDNA written in his standard:

 

Regarding the lost primarchs, there's little direct information about them. However, we can infer some facts by process of elimination. For example, the II and XI legionaries clearly didn't have strong behavioural or physical deviations from "baseline" Astartes like the UM/IF or they coud never have been absorbed by them.

We also know that the II was part of the GC for more of a century while the XI was lost almost after being found. So everybody must have know about the II and its legion should have developed a subculture distinct from the others. Maybe there's something in the UM/IF fluff that could be taken as clues of their nature. Although this can lead to dead ends and red herrings. Like, the Scythes of the Emperor has nothing to do with the DG despite some shallow similarities in iconography.

[Tawnis]

1 hour ago, lansalt said:

I vaguely recall the Black Books listing the UM among those, but the UM 4th Company LE Legion Herald (pretty much a Remus Ventanus prototype) clearly had SEDNA written in his standard:

 

Regarding the lost primarchs, there's little direct information about them. However, we can infer some facts by process of elimination. For example, the II and XI legionaries clearly didn't have strong behavioural or physical deviations from "baseline" Astartes like the UM/IF or they coud never have been absorbed by them.

We also know that the II was part of the GC for more of a century while the XI was lost almost after being found. So everybody must have know about the II and its legion should have developed a subculture distinct from the others. Maybe there's something in the UM/IF fluff that could be taken as clues of their nature. Although this can lead to dead ends and red herrings. Like, the Scythes of the Emperor has nothing to do with the DG despite some shallow similarities in iconography.

 

Ohh, that's a neat little sneaky bit of lore. I did figure that they were there, but this essentially confirms it. Nice! Thank you. 

That's another good point about deviations. 

Yeah, I thought that might be a clue if Aonid Theil started his own chapter after the HH, but apparently he stayed with the UM. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, lansalt said:

Regarding the lost primarchs, there's little direct information about them. However, we can infer some facts by process of elimination. For example, the II and XI legionaries clearly didn't have strong behavioural or physical deviations from "baseline" Astartes like the UM/IF or they coud never have been absorbed by them.

 

A lot of people have read into the scene where Dorn loses his temper with Sigismund and shouts "You are not my son" as being literal and an implication that Sigismund (and perhaps the rest of the Templar brotherhood) were from one of the absorbed Legions. However, Dorn's discussion with Malcador in "The Chamber at the end of Memory" seems to disprove that as it shows that Dorn has no memory of what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions except for the brief moments when Malacdor restores his memories.

[lansalt]

Yeah, there's also stories in the books about Sigismund before he became a Templar and captain, so he clearly wasn't one of the II or XI legionaries. Whatever happened to those, they probably didn't end as UM/IF posterboys. Sending them away in Expeditionary Fleets to the edges of the GC seems more logical in-universe.

[Tawnis]

24 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

A lot of people have read into the scene where Dorn loses his temper with Sigismund and shouts "You are not my son" as being literal and an implication that Sigismund (and perhaps the rest of the Templar brotherhood) were from one of the absorbed Legions. However, Dorn's discussion with Malcador in "The Chamber at the end of Memory" seems to disprove that as it shows that Dorn has no memory of what happened to the 2nd and 11th Legions except for the brief moments when Malacdor restores his memories.

 

Yeah, I don't think he meant that literally either, however, I also don't think it necessarily precludes that from being the case without his knowledge.

13 minutes ago, lansalt said:

Yeah, there's also stories in the books about Sigismund before he became a Templar and captain, so he clearly wasn't one of the II or XI legionaries. Whatever happened to those, they probably didn't end as UM/IF posterboys. Sending them away in Expeditionary Fleets to the edges of the GC seems more logical in-universe.

It really all depends how much Big E and Malcador can mess with their memories. While I do think it's the biggest stretch in my theories, it's possible that the books with Sigismund are more-less true, but that it's told in an unreliable narrator style. 

[Dark Shepherd]

IIRC one legion was folded into Ultramarines cos their primarch went crazy, other missing legion went haywire and Wolves were sent in

 

This might be divisive but Id like some novels about the missing legions at some point. Itd be a retcon but afaik the only reason theres 2 missing legions is just because of the Roman influence/references

[Indy Techwisp]

I swear it was Ultramarines and Imperial Fists who absorbed most of the former II&XI Legion's Marines (and the Loyalist elements from Traitor Legions post-heresy).

[Felix Antipodes]

—snip—

What's the source where is says some were found in Pacificus, I couldn't find any reference to a specific location, that's pretty useful info if accurate. 

 

This was just speculation on my part based on the location of the 18 known Primarch homeworlds.  Of the 18, only Colchis is within Pacificus, so imho at least one of the missing Primarchs would have been found there.  My belief is it was the XIth for the reason I stated.  From my readings of various sources it appears that a lot of the Pacificus compliances were the work of the XVIIth legion.  What if Lorgar was the initial influence on the XIth?

On the other hand, the IInd Primarch could have been found anywhere, but since he is believed to be the third found, I would guess inner Tempestus.

 

All speculation of course, but isn’t that what the missing legions were all about - something for us to speculate about?

[Tawnis]

Ah gotcha. Well Sigmentum Pacificus is the smallest and least populated of all the Sigmentums, so it does makes sense that less were found there. 

 

Yeah, Russ in on the edge of Solar, so I did a search of all the worlds roughly that distance from Terra and Elysia made the most sense.