GW has a plan for the Lost Primarchs (and I think I've figured out part of it)

[Karhedron]

There was one place where one of the Primarchs (possibly Fulgrim) recalls the 2nd Primarch being a dour and humourless character. Given that this a brotherhood that included people like Perutabo and Lion El'Johnson, he must have been a real party-pooper for that to stand out as his defining personality trait.

[Jamafore]

One thing I noticed in the OP post is that you mentioned that there was no legion with a focus on void combat. This is may not be true. I believe in the black book that had the Fists in it, it was stated that they started out with an emphasis on void warfare, the siege shtuffs didn't come till later. Unfortunately, my copy is in storage and I cannot verify this.

[Rob P]

Where does it say the IF took in lost legion astartes?

 

Edit: as in the story and the specific quote

Edited December 28, 2024 by Rob P

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Rob P said:

Where does it say the IF took in lost legion astartes?

 

Edit: as in the story and the specific quote

IF?  Normally that's "insinuated" to be the Ultramarines usually by Chaos Legions "sowing discord".  Quotes are not direct but the general flavor of how its' portrayed in the fluff when it comes up, if it comes up. 

[Deus_Ex_Machina]

The reason of the 2nd & 11th Primarch being unknown was a tool for players to come up with their own Primarch and corresponding legion. It was meant to promote creative thinking in the hobby. 

[Karhedron]

7 hours ago, Rob P said:

Where does it say the IF took in lost legion astartes?

 

Edit: as in the story and the specific quote

 

It is in the short story "The Chamber at the End of Memory". Malcador reveals that the Emperor mind-wiped Marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions after their Primarchs fell. They were then inducted into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. 

[Rob P]

4 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

It is in the short story "The Chamber at the End of Memory". Malcador reveals that the Emperor mind-wiped Marines from the 2nd and 11th Legions after their Primarchs fell. They were then inducted into the Imperial Fists and Ultramarines. 

I couldn't find anything that said that in the story. I think that's a misconstruction of what is actually said. Do you have the exact quote?

 

Edit: the bit I'm thinking of confirms the mindwipe and confirms that Guilliman and Dorn argued for the survival of the legionnaires but I'm not seeing anything that says the IF and UM took them into their legions. I'm happy to be corrected.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Rob P
clariity

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

10 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

The reason of the 2nd & 11th Primarch being unknown was a tool for players to come up with their own Primarch and corresponding legion. It was meant to promote creative thinking in the hobby. 

Which really doesn’t seem to be GW’s priority any more…

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Which really doesn’t seem to be GW’s priority any more…

Both could be true:  They didn't have a plan then, but do have a plan now.  They are releasing a few more mentions than I would have expected.

[Tawnis]

On 12/28/2024 at 4:56 PM, Rob P said:

Where does it say the IF took in lost legion astartes?

 

Edit: as in the story and the specific quote

From The Chamber at the End of Memory:

 

 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.'

'You robbed them of their memories.'

'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!'

 

This confirmed that their memories were erased and they were folded into existing Legions. It heavily implies that those were the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. Given that we know the Ultramarines became a massive Legion that swelled around this time, it can be inferred that they received the larger of the Lost Legions, and The Imperial Fists the smaller.

In additional supporting evidence. They legions that they folded into would have had to have had relatively stable gene seed so that they didn't stick out among their new brothers. Both the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists have notably very stable gene seed. 

 

 

On 12/28/2024 at 10:20 PM, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

The reason of the 2nd & 11th Primarch being unknown was a tool for players to come up with their own Primarch and corresponding legion. It was meant to promote creative thinking in the hobby. 

Yes, this was the case, and I said as such. However, just because it was the case 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Doesn't mean that it's still the case now. 

Edited February 7 by Tawnis

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Apparently we’ve known the name of a lost legion for over 20 years now.

 

 

[Rob P]

On 2/7/2025 at 8:54 PM, Tawnis said:

From The Chamber at the End of Memory:

 

 'The legionaries they left behind, leaderless and forsaken, were too great a resource to be discarded out of hand. They did not share the fate of their fathers. You and Roboute argued in their favour, but you do not recall it.' Malcador nodded to himself. 'It fell to me to see that they were attuned to new circumstances.'

'You robbed them of their memories.'

'I granted them a mercy!' Malcador replied, his tone wounded. 'A second chance!'

 

This confirmed that their memories were erased and they were folded into existing Legions. It heavily implies that those were the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. Given that we know the Ultramarines became a massive Legion that swelled around this time, it can be inferred that they received the larger of the Lost Legions, and The Imperial Fists the smaller.

In additional supporting evidence. They legions that they folded into would have had to have had relatively stable gene seed so that they didn't stick out among their new brothers. Both the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists have notably very stable gene seed. 

 

 

Yes, this was the case, and I said as such. However, just because it was the case 30 years ago, or even 10 years ago. Doesn't mean that it's still the case now. 

 

I thought that might be the source. It's a logical narrative and definitely arguable but I don't see it provides any solid evidence that the UM and the IF were the beneficiaries.

[LSM]

On 2/8/2025 at 5:21 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Apparently we’ve known the name of a lost legion for over 20 years now.

[SNIP]

 

Video summary: in 1999, the Black Library published an anthology (Into the Maelstrom) with the short story Hell in a Bottle in it. In the story, a Space Marine Legion named the Iron Hearts is led by their Primarch Rubinek as they battle the forces of Chaos (post Heresy).

 

In subsequent publishing, BL changed the use of 'Legion' and 'Primarch' to 'Chapter' and 'Chapter Master'. The author, Simon Jowett, allegedly later clarified that he had goofed on the terms. In publishing after that, the original 'Legion' and 'Primarch' were reinserted.

 

//

 

The creator of the video then speculates a bit on why they've changed it back. (When to me the answer would be an obvious: they were careless and reprinted the original without understanding that they'd already had to change it once before.)

[Tawnis]

On 2/8/2025 at 3:21 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Apparently we’ve known the name of a lost legion for over 20 years now.

 

 

Yeah, not so much. It was pretty obviously a mix up by the author between Primarch/Legion and Chapter Master/Chapter. When they "un-retconned" it, it was almost certainly just an oversight, that they printed an older version of the story they had on file rather than the current one. 

1 hour ago, Rob P said:

 

I thought that might be the source. It's a logical narrative and definitely arguable but I don't see it provides any solid evidence that the UM and the IF were the beneficiaries.

While it's not directly spelled out, it is by far the most likely scenario given all the information we currently have. 

[Karhedron]

We already have Iron Warriors and Iron Hands. Adding Iron Hearts would seem like overdoing the theme slightly at this point.

[Brother Captain Vakarian]

12 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

We already have Iron Warriors and Iron Hands. Adding Iron Hearts would seem like overdoing the theme slightly at this point.

But surely not too much as a successor chapter! 
 

 
/ end shameless self-promotion . . . 

 

From the research I’ve done after Kurgan originally pointed out the Iron Hearts in Hell in a Bottle to me, it seems clear that they were conceived as a chapter, not as an interpretation of one of the Lost Legions. The author’s own subsequent statement being the most convincing evidence, regardless of any future publishing runs.

Edited February 10 by Brother Captain Vakarian
Typos

[JimVandy85]

On 10/31/2024 at 1:37 AM, Emperor's Angel said:

 Potentially Celtic inspirations

Where are we getting this from or is this just speculation? If just speculation,  then how did we arrive at that conclusion? I'm loving this discussion so far and am planning my own Second Legion based off this. Where do we think the Exorcists fit into this?

Edited March 21 by JimVandy85

[Lord_Caerolion]

Only things I’ll add on are that the Iron Hands were the “anti-technology” Legion, Ferrus even created a bunch of “Vaults of Mimir” scattered across the galaxy to lock away what couldn’t be used. 
 

The other thing is that using Chapter culture as proof of geneseed should always be taken with a heaping pile of salt. Geneseed can have some psychological effects on the implantees, but when you start going “well this Chapter ALSO uses grail iconography, that proves they’re a missing Legion”, that’s… not how it works. The recruitment world culture is a far larger driver of Chapter culture in the vast majority of circumstances, outside of direct attempts to override it like the Dark Angels. Spears of the Emperor was basically written entirely to show how Ultramarine Successors don’t have to look like Ultramarines at all. 
 

I have a strong dislike of the other interpretation of geneseed, it basically makes it that all Successors can only ever be direct clones of their founder Legion in different colours, which is just not how even the canon Chapters work. 
 

Lastly, Soul Drinkers being 2nd Founding IF is just… not tonally consistent. We’re initially told that when the Fists Legion split, the die-hards remained as Imperial Fists, moderates joined the Crimson Fists, and the most vengeful joined the Black Templars. All psychological reasons. Then the Soul Drinkers came along, and go “we were created from the void specialists!” So now, for a single one of the 4 resulting Chapters, it’s not psychological, but strategic specialty. We have an odd one out for an authors special snowflake Chapter, and the twist of them not actually being Fists Successors was amazing, until they rolled it back.
Personally, I still headcannon that the Soul Drinkers are not Imperial Fist Successors.  
 

edit: to add to the Chapter culture thing, I saw the Libators held up as “well they’re not like Ultramarines, so that PROVES” they’re Missing Legion guys!”

Said proof is grail imagery, and lots of blood rituals, which is not Ultramarine-y and thus evidence of a Missing Legion. You guys, uh… you guys realize we already HAVE a canon Chapter/Legion with grail iconography and blood rituals, right? Unless the Blood Angels are also entirely comprised of Missing Legion members, along with all THEIR successors, then no, your point does not work. 

Edited April 11 by Lord_Caerolion

[Felix Antipodes]

On 4/11/2025 at 2:55 PM, Lord_Caerolion said:

—snip—

Lastly, Soul Drinkers being 2nd Founding IF is just… not tonally consistent. We’re initially told that when the Fists Legion split, the die-hards remained as Imperial Fists, moderates joined the Crimson Fists, and the most vengeful joined the Black Templars. All psychological reasons. Then the Soul Drinkers came along, and go “we were created from the void specialists!” So now, for a single one of the 4 resulting Chapters, it’s not psychological, but strategic specialty. We have an odd one out for an authors special snowflake Chapter, and the twist of them not actually being Fists Successors was amazing, until they rolled it back.
Personally, I still headcannon that the Soul Drinkers are not Imperial Fist Successors.  

I also still headcanon the original Soul Drinkers as non IF successors as per the original twist.  On the other hand, I consider the new, all Primaris Chapter to be from IF geneseed, Caull just using an old (alleged) IF successor Chapter name for the next batch of IF grey shields off the assembly line.  I doubt he would have any stockpiled geneseed to check because of those pesky Inquisitors and their ‘write them out of history’ ways.