GW has a plan for the Lost Primarchs (and I think I've figured out part of it)

[CatchyUsername715]

The thing about XI being tasked with dealing with technology makes a lot of sense. Mercury is confirmed to have advanced tech:

 

"During the Dark Age of Technology Mercury's city of Cytheron used force field generators to hold back the rays of Sol itself. This technology was later utilized by the Dark Angels in the form of the Cytheron Pattern Aegis"

 

So we know that advanced technology existed, remained relatively intact, and was taken by an imperial unit. The Dark Angels being in possession of this tech could be a result of their role in exterminating the XI legion. We know the I Legion was tasked with wiping out the II and XI alongside the VI, and the Space Wolves probably wouldn't have a lot of interest in technology. This could also be the origin of some of the I's advanced tech like teleportation and Sammael's Corvex.

[Tawnis]

On 10/21/2024 at 8:45 AM, CatchyUsername715 said:

The thing about XI being tasked with dealing with technology makes a lot of sense. Mercury is confirmed to have advanced tech:

 

"During the Dark Age of Technology Mercury's city of Cytheron used force field generators to hold back the rays of Sol itself. This technology was later utilized by the Dark Angels in the form of the Cytheron Pattern Aegis"

 

So we know that advanced technology existed, remained relatively intact, and was taken by an imperial unit. The Dark Angels being in possession of this tech could be a result of their role in exterminating the XI legion. We know the I Legion was tasked with wiping out the II and XI alongside the VI, and the Space Wolves probably wouldn't have a lot of interest in technology. This could also be the origin of some of the I's advanced tech like teleportation and Sammael's Corvex.

My thoughts were more that they brought it back to be reverse engineered and the Dark Angels just got the fanciest toys, but that's certainly possible too. 

 

Where does it say that the Dark Angels assisted the Space Wolves in wiping out the lost Legions? I couldn't even find anything concrete that said the Space Wolves did it, just a lot of in universe rumors perpetuated by Russ and the wolves who have every reason to want people to believe that. 

[Indy Techwisp]

If I had to guess what GW intends to do with the Lost Legions, I'd say they'd use them to explain some of the more strange aspects of the setting surrounding Astartes.

 

For example: They could imply that one of the 2 had geneseed which underwent major, but stable, Mutations and use that to explain how a number of Loyalist Chapters with pretty normal geneseed suddenly chuck out a Chapter who grow Bone Knives or Ignite when enraged.

[Karhedron]

In some ways the revelation that both the lost Legions were folded into the UMs and IFs undermines some of the backstory of the Wolves and Blood Angels. In the early books (especially Fear to Tread) Sanguinius is terrified of any hint of genetic instability in the Blood Angels. The implication behind his paranoia is that one of the lost Legions was purged for genetic instability (Magnus even refers the lost Legions as "the purged" and "the forgotten" in First Heretic).

 

Also, if both Legions were rolled into others, how did the Wolves gain their reputation as the Emperor's executioners? On more than one occasion, we hear characters talk about the Wolves being unleashed again. But if neither the 2nd nor 11th Legions were wiped out, why does anyone think the Wolves are so scary? They might fear Russ personally for being willing to fight his brothers (both Johnson and Angron) but why the Wolves as a whole?

[Indy Techwisp]

25 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

Also, if both Legions were rolled into others, how did the Wolves gain their reputation as the Emperor's executioners? On more than one occasion, we hear characters talk about the Wolves being unleashed again. But if neither the 2nd nor 11th Legions were wiped out, why does anyone think the Wolves are so scary? They might fear Russ personally for being willing to fight his brothers (both Johnson and Angron) but why the Wolves as a whole?

 

The 2nd and 11th Legions were rolled in to the Ultras and Fists, but what we aren't told about is the 21st Primarch, who's legion was purged to a man.

[Tawnis]

25 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

In some ways the revelation that both the lost Legions were folded into the UMs and IFs undermines some of the backstory of the Wolves and Blood Angels. In the early books (especially Fear to Tread) Sanguinius is terrified of any hint of genetic instability in the Blood Angels. The implication behind his paranoia is that one of the lost Legions was purged for genetic instability (Magnus even refers the lost Legions as "the purged" and "the forgotten" in First Heretic).

 

Also, if both Legions were rolled into others, how did the Wolves gain their reputation as the Emperor's executioners? On more than one occasion, we hear characters talk about the Wolves being unleashed again. But if neither the 2nd nor 11th Legions were wiped out, why does anyone think the Wolves are so scary? They might fear Russ personally for being willing to fight his brothers (both Johnson and Angron) but why the Wolves as a whole?

I personally think that Sangiunius' take is less of a direct comparison and more of a conceptual one. He worries that the Blood Angels genetic instability could be seen as an issue on par with the Lost Primarchs, but that doesn't mean that their issues needed to be genetic. Just that both would cause a similar level of monumental shame to require erasure. 

As for the wolves, while the Lost Legions weren't exterminated, that doesn't mean that their Primarch's went quietly either. It's completely possible that Russ and the Wolves were sent to censure the Primarch's but not the Legions. A possible parallel with this could be his mission to Prospero. He was just sent to censure Magnus, not the Thousand Son's as a whole. If with the Lost Legions, the Legions stood down, were separated from their Primarch, of otherwise fractured, Russ and the wolves could have still been unleashed without wiping out the Lost Legions completely. 

Also (and I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, but I know it was in one of the HH books) Russ heavily implies that he's never killed a Primarch and that he just likes to let everyone believe that so that they stay weary of him. 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Tawnis said:

Also (and I can't for the life of me remember where I read this, but I know it was in one of the HH books) Russ heavily implies that he's never killed a Primarch and that he just likes to let everyone believe that so that they stay weary of him. 

 

I can't remember that but it might be Wolfsbane. He spends a significant chunk of the book trying to get into the headspace of being able to kill Horus.

[Emperor's Angel]

Love this topic and I have some thoughts:

 

Whilst we know that officially the Lost Legions were absorbed by the Imperial Fists and the Ultramarines… what we aren’t sure of is if other Legions did so as well.  Remember, there are some characters who are hinted at not being legitimate sons of their respective legions… like the Iron Hands with Autek Mor of Clan Morragul.  So it’s a tricky subject even at this point of the discussion.

 

I personally believe that GW will never name the lost Primarchs or their legions.  But I do believe they are dropping serious hints.  And I think it’s possible to link various successor chapters to them.  It will never be official of course… but I think there is enough there that it’s absolutely plausible.  I hold out hope that the tidbits of lore surrounding the White Templars are something that would/could lead to some revelations if they were explored.

 

In my opinion… I think looking closely at the Imperial Fist legion is the key to this subject.  I absolutely believe Sigismund is a son of a Lost Primarch.  I think that’s the whole point of the Novella of the Crimson Fist.  Alexis Polux is a true son of Dorn, not Sigismund.  And the proof was in their respective characters.  Whilst I know Dorn didn’t say his “you are not my son” line because he knew this.  His mind was wiped and so was Sigismunds.  But I do believe it was more true than either of them will ever know or remember.  
 

I’ll just say it… I think the Black Templars, for all intents and purposes are the 11th Legion.  And I think some other chapters could actually be related to them and not know it… Like the Fire Angels or the Howling Griffons even.  Yes it’s Head Canon, but I think that is as close to we will ever get.

 

I also think the Soul Drinkers were/are sons of the 2nd Legion.  And other chapters that I think would fit in this archetype would be the Doom Eagles, Mortifactors and maybe even the Novamarines and the Executioners.

 

Here is a link worth a read:  

 

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1TPE_p63CEzXIO5eEhfMR02Fw9drk_kP4U-fkbkHxYKM/mobilebasic

 

I am not the author, but it’s a fascinating look at comparing the Primarchs to a twenty card tarot deck.  And I think it fits so perfectly that it’s official in my head canon at least.

 

But basically the lost Primarchs are the High Priestess and Fortune.  Notice the relationships each of these have with Dorn and Guilliman.  Also notice the High Priestess and its relationship to Sanguinius.  I’m not saying he had wings too… but it would be cool.  What’s also cool about the High Priestess is his Psyker abilities.  Sounds like he is the true foil to Magnus.  A true reader and understander of the Warp.  
 

What makes this hard, is the fact that for 10k years… Imperial Fist geneseed lacked certain organs because they failed.  Indicating that it should be fairly easy to tell who has the genetics of Rogal Dorn.  Except what we now know is that Dorn had those two organs removed in the heresy to expedite recruitment in preparation for the Solar War.  And they were just incapable of reincorporating those organs after the fact.  So it’s possible the other two genetic lines were affected in the very same manner.  So now we are unable to link IF and Ultramarine successors (who are actually lost legion successors) because this issue is compounding the problem.  This also means that Chapters could be founded from the geneseed of a lost legion and believe they are either Ultramarine or Imperial Fist successors.  Which explains the whole White Templar situation rather nicely.  Remember, in a founding all 1000 sets of geneseed is derived from one original.  
 

I think the 2nd, 7th and 11th legions were all boarding, siege, assault specialists.  And I think their temperaments were similar.  So I think they were able to fit in rather easily when it came time to absorb them.

 

The 2nd Legion was a legion of portents, omens and had a fascination with death that probably bordered on appearing morbid and barbaric.  I believe they had a higher number of psykers in the legion than most… and they could drink the souls of their enemies and cast psykic fear (The Hel) into them.  The Primarch of this legion wielded the Soulspear.  They were excellent void warfare specialists.  Basically… combine the Doom Eagles, Mortifactors and the Soul Drinkers into a single Legion with a dash of Executioners and I think you have it… With a Primarch that is similar to Sanguinius and Magnus… a Black Winged death angel who could read into peoples souls and use that to cause fear or calmness to further his agenda.  
 

The 11th Legion is the middle ground between Lorgar and his Word Bearers and Dorn and his Imperial Fists.  When Dorn’s mental damn breaks after the Emperor’s enthronement… and he breaks his sword over his knee and paints his armor black and goes on a crusade of vengeance… you see that and go “makes sense he’s the father of the Templars”… but it’s not, he is not..  It’s because a Dorn not in control of his emotions is just like Primarch 11.  This is why they got along so well.  The Black Templars are exactly what the 11th Legion were.  And Sigismund is a true Scion of his lost father, though he never remembered it.  They were also great ship to ship, siege assault marines.  Expert dualists and swordsmen.  Fanatical and prone to zealotry.  Faith based but not to Lorgars extent.  More prone to anger and emotion than the Imperial Fists, but similar in temperament.  Probably had Emperor’s Champion like positions in the legion.  Not fans of rules and regulations.  Very ad hoc and because of this adaptable.  
 

Remember the story of the 352nd company of the Imperial Fists?  How after the conquest of the Consus Drift the legion recruited from the Drift Clans and put them all in one company… and for many years that company was considered the elite of out hull void warfare.  That tells you how the fists recruit.  
 

Yet Sigismund (“from Terra”) and Rann (“from Inwit”) come into the legion in the same company.  Possible sure… but I think it’s more likely they were thrown into the same company and came up together because they were a company inducted with lost legion marines and fake memories.  
 

It’s a fun subject.  But I’m personally convinced this is the truth.  And I hope we never find out lol.

[Indy Techwisp]

Actually, a thought.

Have we considered the hypothetical "Blatant Corporate Greed" angle?

(Can't wait for this post to be stuck in the filter for that, lol)

 

What if GW are slowly drip-feeding out information on the 2 lost Legions so they can swoop in later down the line and throw one to Loyalists as "Cawl revived the Legion and their Primarch has returned from Exile in the Imperium's time of need!" and throw the other into CSM for pretty much the same reason except swap Cawl for Fabius Bile and Imperium for Chaos?

 

It'd cause a ton of outrage, yes.

But equally "New Marines" would sell well to the less lore-informed part of the community.

 

Also, and I say this simply as a rare possibility in the dark timeline that is the above suggestion, they could use such a massive upheaval to throw in Female Space Marines if they needed to (i.e. They haven't finished turning SoB into them yet.)

 

I certainly hope this isn't what they're planning, but it's something that should be considered a possibility regardless

 

[Tawnis]

On 10/25/2024 at 11:05 PM, Emperor's Angel said:

I personally believe that GW will never name the lost Primarchs or their legions.  But I do believe they are dropping serious hints.  And I think it’s possible to link various successor chapters to them.  It will never be official of course… but I think there is enough there that it’s absolutely plausible.  I hold out hope that the tidbits of lore surrounding the White Templars are something that would/could lead to some revelations if they were explored.

 

The 2nd Legion was a legion of portents, omens and had a fascination with death that probably bordered on appearing morbid and barbaric.  I believe they had a higher number of psykers in the legion than most… and they could drink the souls of their enemies and cast psykic fear (The Hel) into them.  The Primarch of this legion wielded the Soulspear.  They were excellent void warfare specialists.  Basically… combine the Doom Eagles, Mortifactors and the Soul Drinkers into a single Legion with a dash of Executioners and I think you have it… With a Primarch that is similar to Sanguinius and Magnus… a Black Winged death angel who could read into peoples souls and use that to cause fear or calmness to further his agenda.  
 

There is an interesting possibility that we MAY know the name of the XI Primarch. I didn't include this in the original post because I've only ever been able to find it from a secondary source, and have yet to be able to track down a primary one, so take this with a grain of salt, but here it is: 

Apparently, there was an internal Campaign run by GW and some of the BL authors back in 2009 set near the end of the Great Crusade and organized by Lourie Goulding (the same author that wrote The Last Council). While the campaign is non-cannon, many aspects that featured in it, while not cannon at the time, became cannon later, like the Raven Guard having cloning technology. In this campaign, one of the players played as the XI Legion with a Red/Yellow colour scheme and were lead by the Primarch Malibron. The really interesting thing with this is that in The Last Council, when Horus tries to say the name of the XI Primarch, he only manages to get out part of it "Mal..." Now some people think he's saying the start of Malcador's name here, but from the scene's context, that seems incredibly unlikely. 

 

That's an interesting thought on the II and it actually fits really well with my theory on them as void warfare specialists. For one, because it would make sense for them to be more attuned to that for void warefare in general, but also because we can be almost certain they were at Sedna, and we do know that the conquest of Sedna required a heavy reliance on psykers. At first I thought this meant the Thousand Son's were there, but it turned out not to fit in the timeline. While the Dark Angels do have their own dedicated psyker forces, given how many Astartes were present, having another Legion with that kind of specialty there makes a lot of sense. 

[Tawnis]

On 10/26/2024 at 4:48 AM, Indy Techwisp said:

Actually, a thought.

Have we considered the hypothetical "Blatant Corporate Greed" angle?

(Can't wait for this post to be stuck in the filter for that, lol)

 

What if GW are slowly drip-feeding out information on the 2 lost Legions so they can swoop in later down the line and throw one to Loyalists as "Cawl revived the Legion and their Primarch has returned from Exile in the Imperium's time of need!" and throw the other into CSM for pretty much the same reason except swap Cawl for Fabius Bile and Imperium for Chaos?

 

 

I kinda half agree with this, and it was one of the underlying arguments I was making. GW likes money and Primarch's sell real well. 

I don't think that they will do anything as drastic as a 10/10 split, I know we've technically got a 7/7 split at the moment (If you count Omegon standing in for Alpharius) if you take away the 4 dead Primarchs, (but they've also been toying with the idea of bringing them back, so we'll see). Personally, if we do ever get a Lost Primarch, I think we'll get one loyalist one and the other will be confirmed dead or something. Lore wise, I think that Chaos can have access to other high profile threats like Vashtor without having to lean on the Primarch angle so heavily as the Imperium would. 

If it ever does turn out that the Black Templar are Lost Legion, they could possibly use that as an excuse to put a Primarch in the codex and refresh interested in the faction. This could be the Subject XI route that's referenced in the Custodes Codex. Alternatively, since Generic Space Marines, often seem to suffer the effects of their codex unique chapters being better, putting more Primarchs in the generic books would help there from a game design standpoint at least. 

[Emperor's Angel]

On 10/28/2024 at 10:59 AM, Tawnis said:

There is an interesting possibility that we MAY know the name of the XI Primarch. I didn't include this in the original post because I've only ever been able to find it from a secondary source, and have yet to be able to track down a primary one, so take this with a grain of salt, but here it is: 

Apparently, there was an internal Campaign run by GW and some of the BL authors back in 2009 set near the end of the Great Crusade and organized by Lourie Goulding (the same author that wrote The Last Council). While the campaign is non-cannon, many aspects that featured in it, while not cannon at the time, became cannon later, like the Raven Guard having cloning technology. In this campaign, one of the players played as the XI Legion with a Red/Yellow colour scheme and were lead by the Primarch Malibron. The really interesting thing with this is that in The Last Council, when Horus tries to say the name of the XI Primarch, he only manages to get out part of it "Mal..." Now some people think he's saying the start of Malcador's name here, but from the scene's context, that seems incredibly unlikely. 

 

That's an interesting thought on the II and it actually fits really well with my theory on them as void warfare specialists. For one, because it would make sense for them to be more attuned to that for void warefare in general, but also because we can be almost certain they were at Sedna, and we do know that the conquest of Sedna required a heavy reliance on psykers. At first I thought this meant the Thousand Son's were there, but it turned out not to fit in the timeline. While the Dark Angels do have their own dedicated psyker forces, given how many Astartes were present, having another Legion with that kind of specialty there makes a lot of sense. 

I just connect dots.  They could be real.  They could be imagined.  But…

 

I did know about the Malibron name.  And that sent me down a dark tunnel too.  Specifically the mention of yellow/red heraldry.  I know, it’s silly to think this would mean anything… buuuuut

 

Do we know any chapters that are red, yellow, orange that could potentially fit the mold of what I described legion XI would be like?

 

Fire Hawks - claimed to be Ultramarines successors.  But this was disputed (imagine that).  Martial, prideful, stubborn, one of the few chapters to subscribe to the divinity of the Emperor… didn’t really follow the codex very well… These guys are basically Ultramarine Black Templars.  But there is more… their connection to the Legion of the Damned… a band of ghostly space marines who show up to help Imperial Forces in their time of need… how (fortune)it.  Seem quick to blow :cuss: up and use apocalyptic firepower… see links below:
 

Another neat link… which chapters participated specifically on the invasion of Terra to take out Goge Vandir?  Why it was the Imperial Fists (legion VII)… Soul Drinkers (Legion II), Fire Hawks (legion XI) and the Black Templars (legion XI).  Funny how 2 of these chapters linked to lost legion dna would meet unfortunate ends…

 

Howling Griffins - I think it could be argued that they fit close to this knightly theme.

 

Fire Lords - another fire chapter… once thought to be IF successors but are now also thrown into the unknown successor category with the White Templars… what a coincidence.

 

And the Exorcists - hmmm… a chapter that’s more grey knights than any other known chapter… showing extreme faith so much so that they literally allow themselves to be possessed and exorcised… yeah… file these guys under Legion II or XI in my opinion.

 

Minotaurs - not the newer version… the older cursed founding yellow and red striped ones… that were also considered very aggressive and unstable…

 

Doom Warriors - all yellow… but prone to mass annihilation due to a weird genetic mutation that doesn’t allow them to sleep.  
 

Brazen Annihilators - another brand new IF successor that somehow also favors mass annihilation as a main tactic.

 

Fire Angels - Ultramarine successors… but faith based and decked in crosses… their older scheme was basically one for one with historical Templars…

 

…

 

Malibron was hot headed, stubborn, and quick to unleash unyielding and apocalyptic firepower on his enemies.  And was very devout and possibly believed in the Emperors divinity.  And remember… Malcador told Dorn that the lost Primarchs and what they did could have undermined the very principles of the Great Crusade and the Imperial Truth.  Worshiping Big E as a God kind of fits.  And maybe Lorgar and Monarchia was a more loving and forgiving take that what happened to Malibron.  Ironically… these legion could really be the legion of the damned lol.

 

And I’ll readily admit.  This is all easily dismissed.  Space Marines being knightly and prone to use overwhelming firepower isn’t exactly unique.  And there is still that whole nature versus nurture thing.  Does a homeworld dictate chapter character or does the relationship and genetic legacy of the Primarch have a say in that?  I believe geneseed is more important.  But that’s me.

[Emperor's Angel]

Continuing my exploration of potential Malibron links to red/yellow heraldry…

 

Why did Lorgar pick the new heraldry and legion badge like he did?  The Fire Lords (mentioned above) actually have a similar scheme.  Just instead of a black demons head surrounded by fire it’s a black fist surrounded by fire.  What if he was thumbing his nose at the Emperor via using similar heraldry to his lost brother… who potentially shared his zealous nature and was potentially killed for his faith… 

 

Somewhat changing gears… let’s look at the Iron Hands.  
 

They have a HH character who was rumored to not be a real Iron Hand.  Autek Mor was an outcast lord over an outcast clan company in the 10th legion.  He was notorious for killing many in honour duals over slights to his honour.  He was hot headed for sure.  He did not see eye to eye with his Primarch.  
 

Ironically it looks like his Clan Morragul “the Brazen Claws” at least founded 2 second founding chapters in the Red Talons and the Brazen Claws.  Both chapters also favor red.  The Red Talons were known to be ruthless fanatics who would use weapons of mass destruction on populations who sided with Horus… and the Brazen Claws would have enough faith to crusade for years into the Eye of Terra and come out just fine.  Thats interesting.  Was Clan Morragul made up of lost legion rejects… and that’s why they were shunned?  
 

Claws… wasn’t there a pretty famous chapter whose lineage was purposefully hidden after they fell?  They had ties to the executioners (interesting) and were caught running loose with the Codex?  Their chapter master was hot headed too.  Funny how when the Astral Claws turned traitor they would paint their armor red…. Also kind of funny that the Badab War kicked off between them and the Fire Hawks (interesting as they are potentially related).  

So let’s recap:

 

Primarch: Malibron “The Griffin”

Legion: XI

Potential Legion Name: Brazen Knights

Colors: Primary Red, Secondary Yellow

 

Chapter Badge: Black Templar Cross surrounded by yellow fire.

 

Iconography based on potential successors:  Crosses, Eagles, Wings, Lions, Talons, Claws… Griffins (that makes a lot of sense actually), and Fire.  

Traits:  Faith based.  Prideful.  Honour duals.  Swordsmen.  Close range specialists with a penchant for overwhelming firepower.  And prone to weapons of mass destruction, heavy use of destroyer squads potentially.  Quick to Anger.  
 

Reasons for judgement:  Faith and divinity.    Going against the Imperial Truth.
 

… Remember in Flight of the Eisenstein when Garro was informing Dorn of the treachery at Istvaan?  Go reread that and pay attention to Dorn’s reaction to the word faith.  It’s because Malibron left an impact on his brother.  And it’s probably why he instinctively bit Sigismunds head off for shirking his duty over the prophetic ramblings that hit too close to a dark and forgotten memory.

 

All of this stuff is there to be connected (or denied).  40K Lore is so fun!  Everything we have been told is a lie… and it’s been staring us in the face for years.  Or not…

[Tawnis]

That's A LOT of dot connecting over a little bit of information that might not even be accurate. (Speaking of, you'd mentioned that you'd heard about Malibron before, where did you hear about it? I'm still trying to find a primary source.) 

 

I do think there is some more avenue for exploration here though, and I think you might be on the right track, even if you overshot the destination. From the context of the story that I heard, it's very possible that the player's army was painted up as one of the Yellow/Red obscure successor chapter like the Crimson Guard or something. Or it could have been a full homebrew style that someone put in a White Dwarf one time and got made cannon, like the Yellow Jackets. It does make a bit some sense though that if they did become a specific chapter later, that they would fall back on old heraldry. From the way Malcador explained his mind altering abilities, he cannot actually fully erase memories, just hide them and smooth over the rough edges so they are unnoticed. They could very plausibly have subconsciously recalled their old colours, or some of them, to use in a new scheme. That being said, it's hardly proof as so many of the existing successor chapters look wildly different from their progenitors. 

The Fire Hawks are an interesting idea as they are part of the Cursed Founding. Originally, I thought that the Cursed Founding itself might be tied to the Lost Legions in some way, but from everything I've looked at, the implications are that both of the Lost Legion's Gene Seed was very stable (supported by they fact that they seamlessly integrate with the VII and the XIII without anything sticking out). It's also all but confirmed that the Fire Hawks are the Legion of the Damned, so I'd group them both together in their likelihood as Lost Legion as very unlikely. 

 I think the likelihood that any non-2nd Founding Space Marine chapters are Lost Legion, at least in their entirety is very unlikely (I thought the Cursed Founding could be an exception originally, but as pervious, I don't think that's the case). See, newer foundings are formed from the Gene Seed collected by the tithes to all the Chapters under that Primarch's name, so a chapter like the Howling Griffons would have had their initial intake made from the Geneseed of hundreds of Chapters that derive from the Ultramarines. Now I do consider it likely that the Chapter structure of the Ultramarines, certainly could have (and I think very likely did) create successor chapters of the Lost Legions, but that still means that only part of the Gene Seed given to future successors, would be Lost Legion, not all. So in essence, while none of them are dedicated Lost Legion, most of them probably have a little within them. 
 

This does mean that we can be reasonable sure that the successor chapters we know came after the second founding are highly unlikely, so who does that leave us as an option from the second founding? 

 

From the Imperial Fists: 
- The Black Templar: I already discussed the possibility in my OP.
- The Fists Exemplar: We don't know their colour scheme. All we really know about them is that despite being "Imperial Fists" they were highly supportive of Guilliman's idea to break the Legions into Chapters. While we know the Lost Legionaries had their memories altered, this could be a subconscious desire to regain their independence. 

From the Ultramarines:
- The Eagle Warriors: (My personal pick for most likely II Legion): The 20th Chapter of the Ultramarines, were dedicated Void Warfare specialists and played key roles in the Battle of Calth. When the Chapters were founded, they became the Eagle Warriors, a fleet based Void combat specialist chapter. You already know from my breakdown that I highly suspect this was the MO of the II Legion. 
- The Genesis Chapter: Sporting a primarily Red with Yellow trim, the Genesis Chapter was the literally first second founding chapter to be created, hence their name. Consciously or not, it would make sense for the Lost Legions to be the first to become their own chapters. It's hardly proof, but certainly a possibility. 
- The Libators: Primarily Yellow with Grey/Blue heraldry. Having faced censure several times for the constant capture and brutal torture / bloodletting of their foes, which has been deemed excessive even by Imperial standards. While this doesn't point directly to a Lost Legion, it is quite un-Ultramarine. 
- The Silver Skulls: Heavily reliant on Psychic prognostication to determine their campaigns, it's possible that if as we suspect the II was a heavily psyker leaning Legion, that they could have been derived from them. 

As for the other chapters you suggested that should be adressed are: 
- The Doom Warriors: Unknown founding with a heavy Yellow colour scheme. The defect in their Catalepsean Node could be from a Lost Primarch and it was a subtle enough deviation that it didn't stand out when they were folded into another Legion. I do think this is the most likely of your suggestions. 
- The Soul Drinkers: Very likely to be second founding, but not confirmed. This is an interesting one both from an in universe and meta perspective. The primary fact leading to this is that we know that despite always believing they were son's of Dorn, their Gene Seed did not match upon close investigation, and it was also never determined whose it actually was. Now, while the Soul Drinkers were wiped out, they were reformed in the Era Indomitus. Now you'd think that this means that they couldn't still be Lost Legion, however, it's very heavily implied that Cawl used Traitor Gene Seed during the Ultima founding, and he also talks about how the Lost Legions Gene Seed is still good and worth using, he very easily could have snuck this in and created a Lost Legion chapter. Perhaps he even had access to the Soul Drinker Gene Seed tests and saw it for what it was? HOWEVER, there is another more likely possibility and that is that they were made from surviving Thousand Son's Loyalists and that's why their history was erased. All the arguments for them being Lost Legion also apply to them being Son's of Magnus, on top of the fact that they are prone to mutation (a trait suspected to not be indicative of the Lost Legions, but very much is one of the Thousand Sons) and that Tzeetch was very interested in corrupting them. 
- The Fire Lords: Unknown founding with another matching colour scheme. While their Primarch is not known, they are believed to be Imperial Fists, which would still put them in Lost Legion contention. However, I don't think just because their MO is purgation operations that it points to Lost Legions. Also, they don't show up in Imperial records until M38, so I consider it very unlikely that they are a Second Founding chapter. 

Edited October 30 by Tawnis

[Emperor's Angel]

There was a YouTube video of this regarding the whole Malibron thing that popped up in my feed.  Fairly recently I might add.  And it covered all of the points you made.  
 

And I readily admit this is all very loosely tied together.  There is just enough here to make it “plausible” but firmly in the “that’s a stretch” category as well.  I just focused in on Chapters that had the associated colors in their heraldry but also had unknown or unspecific origins, and tried to tie in their character to my understanding of what I think I’m reading of the High Priestess and the Fortune characters.  It’s shaky ground for sure.  To me Legion Heraldry and Iconagraphy matters.  And I think Chapter Heraldry and the symbols that are incorporated into the chapter badge say a lot about the creators mindset.  And in the case of a lot of these legacy chapters with dubious origins, that most assuredly didn’t have this in mind when they were created,  I think contemporary materials may be trying to piggy back and shoe horn some of this together.  
 

Remember this about the 21st Founding… the reason that it’s the cursed founding is because the Imperium attempted to alter and or splice geneseed.  So I don’t think it rules out lost legion candidates.  I’m pretty convinced on the Fire Hawks lol.  Even if they were further affected by other alterations.
 

And I actually think it’s the reverse on non second founding chapters.  I think it’s entirely plausible that, let’s say for example, all Imperial Fist successor chapters of the 2nd Founding actually are made up of genetic material from 3 legions.  As far as we know, the 2nd Founding is the only Founding to which a greater organization was broken off piecemeal into smaller organizations.  The rest of the Foundings sees chapters created off of one geneseed replicated to 1000.  So in my mind, the only way for any of the Space Marine Chapters of the second founding to be 100% pure one source genetic material would be happenstance.  It would depend on how many times over 10,000 years the chapter was nearly brought to extinction and which genetic lines (that are all thought to be from the same source) were around to rebuild the Chapter.

 

But later Foundings are different.  The Adeptus Mechanicus select one geneseed and implant it in a subject that spends his whole life in a tank.  When his two geneseeds are mature they are extracted and implanted in 2 more of these subjects, which leads to 4 sets and so on and so on.  And over the span of like 50 years are we left with 1000 sets of geneseed.  This is what is used to create the initial 1000 marines of a new Chapter.  So if the geneseed vaults of the Imperial Fists and their successors, on Mars, actually contain genetic material of other legions, there is a good chance that any Chapter founded past the second founding could be 100 percent from a single source.  And not just of Rogal Dorn.

At that point, all we have to go on is Chapter character, and the Heraldry that the outside universe Author used to create said Chapter, to see if we can shoe horn it into this theory.

 

This cannot be denied.  This is how geneseed works and is farmed for new Chapters.  Chamber at the End of Memory has forever cast potential doubt into the genetic purity and origin of at least 2 first founding legions and their 2nd Founding Chapters.  And I’m convinced that at least the Iron Hands can be grouped into this too.  

 

And it’s not like any of these three legions… the Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines aren’t close enough in temperament that any successors couldn’t just explain their differences on homeworld, chapter cult and their own historical trajectories to explain this all away.

 

As far as we know… the Raven Guard geneseed has genetic indicators.  So does the Salamanders, and the Space Wolves and the Blood Angels.  
 

The Dark Angels don’t.  I don’t think the White Scars do either.  And the whole Pioneer Companies of the 5th Legion were a good candidate for shenanigans.  But I also think that the only Legions that are candidates for this are those whose Primarchs were found earlier and were around for this event or events.  I think this cancels these two potentially?

 

Now on to your specific chapters, and to clarify, I’m no authority on this, this is just my opinion:

 

Black Templars - 100 percent in my opinion they are chimeric at best, whose chapter character was heavily shaped by a XI Legion Chapter Master and Founder.

 

Fists Exemplars - like above, as a 2nd founding chapter, they are potentially made up of multiple genetic legacies.  I think it’s possible.

 

Eagle Warriors - Without any blurbs about above average psyker shenanigans or an over emphasis on honor duels or faith based zealotry I’m not so sure.  But the Marines Errant (my favorite UM successor chapter ever!) shows some things that could be work here.  Which means the Eagle Warriors can to as they are the direct descendants of them.  I just believe that Chapters like the Silver Skulls, Mortifactors and Doom Eagles are much more likely based on the character of said Chapters.  But I also suspect the Novamarines.  The stuff around their 1st Chapter Master… that story about being questioned on his heraldry… and the weird ghostly stuff surrounding their homeworld… my spider senses are tingling on that.

 

Libators - yeah these guys trip my trigger here as well.  The temperament and also the chalice imagery (linking to Soul Drinkers here) make some serious connections to me.

 

Silver Skulls - the portents stuff and precognitive disciplines… consulting the Emperors Tarot… the whole Librarian focus… and the headhunting reputation.  I’m 100 percent convinced the Silver Skulls are 2nd Legion.  
 

Doom Warriors - I agree.  Through Chapter iconography I link these guys with the Doom Eagles… who I also lump into the 2nd Legion category.  In fact notice how the Silver Skulls veterans almost look just like Doom Eagles.  Remember that according to the High Priestess… silver is important here. These three chapters share a heritage in my eyes.  And it’s not Roboute Guilliman.

 

Soul Drinkers - Yes yes yes… I’m 100 percent convinced these guys are also 2nd Legion.  I think you can make some links to the Silver Skulls and the Libators here.  I would bet money that a Silver Skull could use the Soul Spear.  And if anyone in the setting knows this… it’s Cawl.  He has to know.  The question is whose genetic material did he use to rebuild the Soul Drinkers?  My gut says not that of Rogal Dorn.

 

Fire Lords - we know for a fact that the Fire Lords participate in the feast of blades, according to the Legion of the Damn novel.  This ties them directly with the Imperial Fists.  Also do you remember in Praetorian of Dorn… when Archamus (I’m not checking if I’m getting the name right lol) is inducted into the Legion along with the other first recruits from Inwit… the ceremony with Dorn where they stuck their hand in fire until it was blackened.  That’s exactly the Fire Lords chapter badge.  But remember… that’s Archamus memory.  What if it wasn’t Dorn he did this with?  His memory could have been altered.  I don’t know.  All I can say is they are different enough to cause suspicion.  And the heraldry links, plus the apparent unknown lineage classification (that’s newer than the Novel that shows them in the feast of blades) points to a concerted effort by GW authors to be doing something here.

This is such a fun conversation.  Even if I’m all wrong.  But I can’t help it.  I look at the Crimson Fist novella, the Chamber at the Edge of Memory story, and the recent reclassifications of some IF successors… like the Fire Lords, White Templars and the Excorcists… the Soul Drinker shenanigans… and this Tarot card descriptions on the potential character of the two lost Primarchs… this :cuss: practically writes itself.  Then you look at Autek Mor… and read into some of the Word Bearer similarities… I truly think Forgeworld was dropping some serious hints when they did the backgrounds of the Badab War and Horus Heresy stuff.  They at least talked about this.  You don’t write the Chamber at the End of Memory and not discuss where this could lead.  
 

Look at this on the Badab War:

 

Fire Hawks - Unknown lineage.  
Astral Claws - Unknown lineage.

Carcharadons - Loyalist Night Lords/or chimeric.

Red Scorpions - Loyalist Emperors Children

Minotaurs - Loyalist Iron Warriors
Excorcists - Supposedly IF… but weird

Executioners - Supposedly IF… but weird

Marines Errant - Ultramarines (we touched on them above)

Lamenters -  Another weird cursed founding successor… but Blood Angels.

Fire Angles - I’ve mentioned them before.

 

I mean… there is a lot of question marks here.  There is a weird undercurrent of issues surrounding the lineage of the chapters of the Badab war.  

I have a problem.  I am a 40K conspiracy junkie.  Dont even get me started on my Rogal Dorn being the father of Emperor worship in the Imperium… not Lorgar.

[Tawnis]

45 minutes ago, Emperor's Angel said:

But later Foundings are different.  The Adeptus Mechanicus select one geneseed and implant it in a subject that spends his whole life in a tank.  When his two geneseeds are mature they are extracted and implanted in 2 more of these subjects, which leads to 4 sets and so on and so on.  And over the span of like 50 years are we left with 1000 sets of geneseed.  This is what is used to create the initial 1000 marines of a new Chapter.  So if the geneseed vaults of the Imperial Fists and their successors, on Mars, actually contain genetic material of other legions, there is a good chance that any Chapter founded past the second founding could be 100 percent from a single source.  And not just of Rogal Dorn.

 

Where is this information from? When I looked into it, I found that new chapters were formed by accumulating the Gene Seed Tithe that's not used for purity testing from the chapters that submit it and forming them into a single new chapter essentially all at once. Perhaps there are multiple methods? 

I'm not sold on the Iron Hands. It's heavily implied that Guilliman and Rogal Dorn were given the Lost Legions because they specifically advocated to save those Legionaries. I just can't see Ferrus Manus doing the same thing. 

 

I did consider the Doom Eagles, but I didn't see anything in there lore that really stood out to me other than just being a fair bit different from Ultramarines.

 

That's the thing when we go looking to find a specific solution, everything can be nudged just a little to make it fit where we want it to. There's no way all these chapters are Lost Legion, but I do think there's a reasonable chance of a few of them. The thing is, beyond the ones that really stick out like The Black Templar, the Eagle Warriors, and possibly the Doom Warriors, there's not a lot that separates any of them from the pack to make one seem more likely than the others. 

Keep in mind that while they would occasionally throw out Lost Legion hints, or creators might have secret head cannon for their pet chapters, we know that for a VERY long time, there was no plan. It was (IMHO) The Last Council that started the change in this in 2019, so pre-existing chapters would have to have their lore bent to be Lost Legion, rather than having been designed for it. So in essence, you're kinda in the right mindset, but it also goes to show that by that logic, it could be a lot of things and it doesn't really narrow it down. 

 

[Brother Tyler]

It is from 1st edition lore, as found in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (1989):

 

FOUNDING NEW CHAPTERS

 

According to their charter, each chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Earth. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new chapters.

 

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote [organ]. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of contant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs...

 

That information was repeated verbatim in the Index Astartes article Index Astartes: Rites of Initiation that was published in the 3rd edition of the Warhammer 40,000 game. The information hasn't been repeated in subsequent codices (as far as I can tell), but it hasn't been explicitly reversed/changed, either.

[Emperor's Angel]

19 minutes ago, Brother Tyler said:

It is from 1st edition lore, as found in the Warhammer 40,000 Compendium (1989):

 

FOUNDING NEW CHAPTERS

 

According to their charter, each chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Earth. This 'tithe' has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store gene-seed with a view to founding new chapters.

 

A new chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote [organ]. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of contant reproduction to produce 1000 healthy sets of organs...

 

That information was repeated verbatim in the Index Astartes article Index Astartes: Rites of Initiation that was published in the 3rd edition of the Warhammer 40,000 game. The information hasn't been repeated in subsequent codices (as far as I can tell), but it hasn't been explicitly reversed/changed, either.

That’s where I got it… the Index Astartes article back in 3rd Edition.  Just confirmed it with my original copy.  
 

Am I that old?  Ugh.

[Emperor's Angel]

5 hours ago, Tawnis said:

I'm not sold on the Iron Hands. It's heavily implied that Guilliman and Rogal Dorn were given the Lost Legions because they specifically advocated to save those Legionaries. I just can't see Ferrus Manus doing the same thing. 

Fair enough.  I would actually share your reasonings except for the fact that I don’t think the Autek Mor / Clan Morragul stuff can be ignored.

 

Quote

I did consider the Doom Eagles, but I didn't see anything in there lore that really stood out to me other than just being a fair bit different from Ultramarines.

It’s a complicated link for me I’ll admit.  1) the Chapter Badge implies a connection to the Doom Warriors in my eyes.  And since the Doom Eagles are a 2nd founding successor… and the Doom warriors are unknown… I think it’s reasonable to assume the Doom Warriors are successors of the Doom Eagles.  2) The silver heraldry reminds me of the stuff surrounding the High Priestess card.  Combine these with 3) the chapter character doesn’t jive too well with my idea of what an Ultramarine successor should be, and I think it’s a real potential.  But I absolutely could be wrong.  
 

I am admittedly casting a wide net.  But it’s not as if I am saying the Doom Eagles have always been Lost Legion… it’s that I think the Doom Eagles are a potential candidate to be slightly rewritten with very little effort to reflect this in the future.  So it’s not like I’m married to it.  
 

If I had to limit my theory to the chapters that I am the most confident in… and would actually argue over it (for fun and in good spirit)… I don’t know… let me try:

 

Imperial Fists Successors:

Soul Drinkers - Legion II

Black Templars - Legion XI

 

Ultramarines Successors:

Silver Skulls - Legion II

Flame Hawks - Legion XI

 

Chapters that I think strongly about, but not as strongly as the above:

 

Imperial Fists Successors:

Executioners - Legion II

White Templars - Legion XI

 

Ultramarines Successors:

Doom Eagles (and by extension Doom Warriors) - Legion II

Howling Griffins - Legion XI

 

Chapters that I’m suspicious of, but I could see it going either way:

 

Fire Lords - Legion XI

Fire Angels - Legion XI

Iron Knights - Legion XI

Novamarines - Legion II

Mortifactors - Legion II

Libators - Legion II

Chapters that I think are related to the Autek Mor situation, but I wouldn’t argue hard about it:

 

Red Talons - Legion XI

Brazen Claws - Legion XI

Astral Claws (and by extension the Tiger Claws) - Legion XI

If you asked me… pick 2 chapters above that I think GW are actively dancing around on pushing this narrative:

 

Soul Drinkers - Legion II

White Templars - Legion XI

 

The setup is already there for both.  And the setup is rather recent as far as lore goes.

 

Quote

Keep in mind that while they would occasionally throw out Lost Legion hints, or creators might have secret head cannon for their pet chapters, we know that for a VERY long time, there was no plan. It was (IMHO) The Last Council that started the change in this in 2019, so pre-existing chapters would have to have their lore bent to be Lost Legion, rather than having been designed for it. So in essence, you're kinda in the right mindset, but it also goes to show that by that logic, it could be a lot of things and it doesn't really narrow it down. 

I absolutely agree with everything you are saying here.  I don’t believe we will ever get official names or heraldry or color schemes.  But I do believe there is enough here (especially when you follow the Tarot Card theory) that you can guess.  And all we will be able to do is guess.  We are going to have to live with “maybe… but probably not”.

 

So here is the fun part.  And it’s not serious and it’s open for anyone to fill in their own blanks and ideas.  I am going to look at the above Chapter names in regards to how I grouped them… try to find a theme to “recreate” a lost legion and their respective Primarchs, I would love to read what other people come up with:

 

Legion II - Doombringers

 

Primarch - Severin Grimm “The Banshee” (a cross between Sanguinius and Conrad Curze… with black wings… who is capable of understanding the Warp, the Emperor and his brothers on a level that others cannot.  At odds with Magnus.  Doesn’t believe you can control the Warp.  But does believe you can read it.  A strong Psyker like Magnus… but not in the same way.  He’s capable of reading people and projecting whatever he needs to get them to react in a manner that benefits him.  His main tool is using fear as a weapon.

Color Scheme and Badge - very close to Doom Eagles.  In fact I would argue that Doom Eagle badge should be the inspiration to how Severin Grimm looks in appearance.  White skull mask, black wings… some would consider it the Harbinger of Death.

 

General description of Legion:  Grim, morbid and barbaric in appearance and demeanor… but the Legion utilizes its expanded Librarian corpse (called Soul Drinkers) to read and project fear and terror when on the attack.  As well, they are very adept at consuming the flesh of their enemy and feeling their souls.  They are respected head hunters and believe they are bringers of the Emperors judgement.  Legion relies on portents and prognostication.  Considered excellent ship to ship assault specialists.  Potentially Celtic inspirations.

 

Legion XI - Brazen Knights

 

Primarch - Malibron “The Griffin”.  Primarch is the half way point between Lorgar and Dorn.  Quick to anger and doesn’t handle slights to his honor unchallenged.  There is a zealous streak to him.  But also not as closed off to others like his favored Brother, Rogal Dorn.  Expert swordsman.  Very headstrong and prideful.  His dedication to the Great Crusade is unparalleled.  But may have misgivings on the Imperial Truth.

 

Color scheme and Badge - Red, close to Fire Lords in appearance.  Chapter badge is black Templar cross amidst a yellow flame.  
 

General Description of Legion:  Pretty much the Black Templars.  With a focus on honor duels and swordsmanship.  Excellent assault specialists.  With a penchant for overwhelming close range firepower and flame and melta weaponry.  Probably has a lot of faith based tropes and may even see a special role that predates but is similar to Emperors Champions.  Don’t like rules much.  And if they get mad enough… they have a pretty significant Destroyer corpse to get biblical.  And they have a tendency to get there pretty quickly.  Very heraldic and knightly inspirations.  Legion is divided up into various strategic groups: The Wings, the Claws, the Talons, the Eagles and the Lions.  Elite honor guard of the legion are masters of all groups… called the Order of the Griffin.

 

Now that was all in fun.  And I was able to do this rather quickly just by reverse engineering the chapters I think could be related to this situation and trying to incorporate their respective lore bits and heraldry into a cohesive whole.  Maybe I’m taking the wrong cues.  Who cares. It’s fun.

And the beauty of this… and I mean this part… is with 40K it could be true.  And it’s enough.  I’m not saying these guys gave Horus a wedgie.  I’m not saying they have female Space Marines.  The only thing worth taking away here… is this possibility can no longer be flat out denied.  The lore is here for this interpretation.  It’s no longer a rumor that the Ultramarines absorbed some legions.  It’s no longer flat out wrong that Sigismund is potentially an adopted son.  Doesn’t mean it’s not true.  It just means the idea cannot be gate kept.

 

So in a way.  Doesn’t this reinforce both ideas?  That games workshop wants people to be able to make up their own legions… AND just might be dropping enough hints to make some pretty cool… officially unofficial educated guesses.  And gives them a vehicle to push the Soul Drinker/White Templar narratives.  I personally would kill for a White Templar trilogy that dives into their quest for answers… fully aware that we probably wouldn’t get anything solid.  But we could get things that might help me dial in my crazy theories.  
 

I don’t see a downside.  Unless they just flat out state everything and release new “old” lore that takes the fun of this completely away.  That would be a travesty.

[Emperor's Angel]

And what’s even cooler than being able to reverse engineer a lost legion like this…

 

Is to then turn around and make a new custom chapter based on the legion I pieced together.  Because I want to run with the idea that Cawl is using lost legion genetic material in spite of what Guilliman told him.
 

So fast forward to the Ultima Founding… and I’m making a Chapter called the Harbingers of Doom.  They are half silver and black… with a Flaming skull on a black field not unlike the Marines Errant with their shooting star symbol (because I like Marines Errant).

 

They claim to be of IF heritage… but they come from a barbaric world with Celtic trappings.  They believe they are already dead when they are inducted into the chapter and because of this… willingly go to their deaths because this fact is so enshrined in them.  They have an overactive Psyker corps who uses their abilities to project fear and terror on their enemies, for the rest of the Chapter to capitalize on.  The chapter cult has some weird ceremonies that involve drinking the blood of their enemies.  Probably don’t talk about that part much.  They are considered excellent ship to ship specialists and proponents of out-hull void operations.  They scrimshaw bones a lot… and have a propensity to rely on portents and tarot cards to determine where they believe the Emperor needs them to go.  Because he is a God.

 

Chapter records show that their geneseed is derived from the Executioners and maybe even some senior marines from that chapter formed the command element of the new chapter.  Explains all the barbaric stuff nicely.  
 

Then if I put this all together… I can leave out the whole lost legion stuff and drop hints here and there.  Because I want my friends and readers to go on a journey when they read my lore.  I want them to ask me questions like… they kind of sound like Silver Skulls… that sounds like Doom Eagle stuff… you sure they aren't Ultramarines?  And I can reveal the “idea” to them and the lore bits that I used to unwind everything.  And I can drop cool things in my missions like… what is the Book of Grimm and why are my guys fighting to acquire it?

 

Anyway.  That’s just what I think about this whole thread.  It’s so fun.  If I weren’t already working on my own DIY chapter… I would refine all this and go for it.  But it’s cool that you can dive into this lore (if this is what grabs you… and really shoot for it and I think do it justice).  

[Tawnis]

15 hours ago, Emperor's Angel said:

That’s where I got it… the Index Astartes article back in 3rd Edition.  Just confirmed it with my original copy.  
 

Am I that old?  Ugh.

I feel you, I started back in 3rd edition myself. I'm old enough that I stared in Elementary School and now my kids are getting into the hobby themselves. Feels surreal. 

 

There is some other lore that provides more clarity to this information. It's in regards to the progenoid glands specifically, that each Space Marine has two, one in the neck and one in the chest. It take 5 years for the one in the neck to mature, and 10 for the one in the chest. So taking 55 years into account as the cycle to make 1000 strong chapter, we can work backwards from there for five duplicate cycles. 1000/500/250/125/62/31. 

This means, that in the cannon time given to raise a Space Marine Chapter, they would need to start with 30ish progenoid glands (not counting any backups for possible rejection or other issues). Now we know that each chapter has to submit 5% of their stock to Mars for the Tithe. That means that for a new Chapter to be grown out of a single preexisting Chapter, they would have to have lost at the ABSOULTE MINIMUM more than 300 Astartes (because they each have 2) who had full recoverable Gene Seed, which we know is never the case. 

 

What makes far more sense is that they combine gene seed from various chapters that have the same Primarch to found these new chapters. 

 

[Tawnis]

9 hours ago, Emperor's Angel said:

Primarch - Severin Grimm “The Banshee” (a cross between Sanguinius and Conrad Curze… with black wings… who is capable of understanding the Warp, the Emperor and his brothers on a level that others cannot.  At odds with Magnus.  Doesn’t believe you can control the Warp.  But does believe you can read it.  A strong Psyker like Magnus… but not in the same way.  He’s capable of reading people and projecting whatever he needs to get them to react in a manner that benefits him.  His main tool is using fear as a weapon.
 

General description of Legion:  Grim, morbid and barbaric in appearance and demeanor… but the Legion utilizes its expanded Librarian corpse (called Soul Drinkers) to read and project fear and terror when on the attack.  As well, they are very adept at consuming the flesh of their enemy and feeling their souls.  They are respected head hunters and believe they are bringers of the Emperors judgement.  Legion relies on portents and prognostication.  Considered excellent ship to ship assault specialists.  Potentially Celtic inspirations.

 

This is one thing we can somewhat refute with lore, at least in regards to the II personality as we do know a little bit. According to Fulgrim, he was a quiet and contemplative soul. To me this puts him more between Lorgar and Guilliman than Sangiunius and Curze. Fulgrim also considered the II a hypocrite, but considering the source, it's hard to know if that's actually true or not. From how Magnus and Lorgar discuss the lost Primarchs together, it makes it seem like they were fairly close with one of them and I've always considered that to be the II because of this. 
 

[Tawnis]

8 hours ago, Emperor's Angel said:

Is to then turn around and make a new custom chapter based on the legion I pieced together.  Because I want to run with the idea that Cawl is using lost legion genetic material in spite of what Guilliman told him.

 This is reasonably well implied and I think for the exact reason you do. So people have an in to homebrew their own Lost Legion successors if they want. 

[Tawnis]

8 hours ago, Emperor's Angel said:

Then if I put this all together… I can leave out the whole lost legion stuff and drop hints here and there.  Because I want my friends and readers to go on a journey when they read my lore.  I want them to ask me questions like… they kind of sound like Silver Skulls… that sounds like Doom Eagle stuff… you sure they aren't Ultramarines?  And I can reveal the “idea” to them and the lore bits that I used to unwind everything.  And I can drop cool things in my missions like… what is the Book of Grimm and why are my guys fighting to acquire it?

 

Anyway.  That’s just what I think about this whole thread.  It’s so fun.  If I weren’t already working on my own DIY chapter… I would refine all this and go for it.  But it’s cool that you can dive into this lore (if this is what grabs you… and really shoot for it and I think do it justice).  

Yeah, this is a very fun way to go about it, my homebrew chapter The Void Rangers, is in a similar situation. Officially, they are Guilliman's sons, unofficially, they were formed from the surviving loyalists of the Traitor Legions after the HH, with each company maintaining the martial traditions of their old Legion, even if there is some intermingling between them. I like to see if people can figure it out on their own, where whenever we play a game, I bring a different company with a wildly different playstyle. Each company is also named after a famous loyalist of their respective legions. II is Varren company, III is Tarvitz, ect... 

[Tawnis]

9 hours ago, Emperor's Angel said:

If I had to limit my theory to the chapters that I am the most confident in… and would actually argue over it (for fun and in good spirit)… I don’t know… let me try:

There's one more option that we both forgot and one that while people do tend to give undue importance to because of their prevalence in the games, still fits the bill. The Blood Ravens. 

We know that despite multiple rigorous genetic testing by the mechanicum that the Blood Raven's gene seed cannot be tied directly to one of the Primarchs, that their gene seed is very stable, and that they have a higher than average number of psykers. Now there is a very popular theory that they are Thousand Sons, however that doesn't explain the stability of their gene seed as Magnus' was notoriously unstable. I think having them be II Legion makes a lot more sense, that like the Eagle Warriors, they were II Legion members of the Ultramarines that became their own chapter during the II founding.