Kill team Reboxing Prices

[INKS]

A little while ago we got our first wave and seen that scouts were now 90 dollars CDN per box. Many of the teams in KT are 2 box or more per team. Meaning you are paying 100-200 dollars per team CDN. I was worried then that this would be their new trend and it would appear I am within the range.

 

Note: All cards are 33.50 USD or 38 dollars Cdn

Karskin - 65 USD / 80 Cdn - This is mostly a 1 box team - If you want to be competitive you are going to want 3 more bodies give or take. So either some 3rd party site or but box #2

 

Phobos: Rebox of Infiltrator / Incursor box with extra sprue - 75 USD / 90 Cdn -- 2 box team. You need this Phobos box and a Reavers box. You need 1 box plus 5-6 other guys. 

 

Legionaries : 75 USD / 90 Cdn (seeing the theme here yet?) - tough one, this is the most flexible team with the most options in kill team. You could build from 1 box but you are going to be very limited. This is a min 2 box team. Maybe a little more than that. You have to consider your marks, and how you display them, you have to consider which operatives and which load outs and it all gets a little complicated. More so if you want to be competitive. You will want slannesh shrive talon for example, Nurgle some times but not all the time. Tzeentch and Khorne also need to be considered for some operatives. And then while less useful undivided. It's an expensive team if you want all the options and it's still expensive (2 boxes at least) if you just want to cover the minimal competitive base.

 

Tau Pathfinders: 65 USD / 80 Cdn -- 2 boxes plus a drone -- You get 2 drones per box and there are 5 drones. -- You could try to magnetize them but it's a pain in the butt for them. Good luck if you do. You of course can just build a single box list, but you are going to have a hard time. This team really relies on being able to use the best tool vs each team they encounter. 

 

Inquisitoral Agents: 7 models per box - 60 USD / 70 Cdn -- This one doesn't even build a full kill team. Let's walk through it: 2 agents boxes - 5 karskin (see above) - Exaction squad (waiting on rebox, can't buy these right now outside of combat patrol) - Maybe some Vet Guardsmen as well. (63 Cdn) You are looking at 5 boxes to get the full experience? You can get away with 2 boxes but you'll be missing out on a lot. This is a powerful team but one of the more expensive ones. It's a little deceiving for a new player because until you deep dive the rules you won't understand all the models you need for this one.

 

Chaos Cult: They don't even have a 1 box team for this one. Just the cards. ( lol ). Ok lets break it down: You need a dark commune box (58.00 USD /67.50 Cdn)- Accursed cultist box (58 USD / 67.50 Cdn)- chaos cultist box (52.00 USD / 63.00 Cdn) -- 150 USD plus for this team. And they got nerfed hard, so they aren't as good right now as they used to be. For a lot of the other teams you could just build one box and accept that you won't be competitive. This ones is different, just to play it you need the above. So this one isn't about being competitive or not being competitive. It's just expensive period.

 

Final Thoughts:

Well there you go, an overview of the new Reboxed teams and what it will generally cost you. If you are a casual player and happy with 1 box or you do happen to get a 1 box team (there are a few out there) then it's not so bad. It's not great paying 90 Cdn dollars a team, but it could be much worse. which is showcased above. There are still a BUNCH of more teams they have to rebox yet, so more to come. My point in all of this was that when I seen scouts pop to 90 Cdn dollars a box. This is mostly a 1 box team, but you might also want a few extra scouts. So ebay? Either way, if competitive then you are going to pay more than 100+ dollars for most teams. I see a lot of videos and a lot of people telling you how cheap KT is, but this reboxing is just a lot. I knew the new price was going to be 80-90 Cdn dollars for every rebox and it seems I am right.

[DemonGSides]

The new prices for the KT boxes are legitimate insanity.  I don't understand why anyone would ever pay those prices or buy into KT at these costs.

It's truly mind boggling.  Never have I been more happy to have paid $50 for my Kasrkin before, and glad I grabbed two Aquilons second hand for reduced prices since I had no interest in the KT stuff.  I never would've guessed they'd get this inflated.  Makes me much less interested in any future team that spans both games, unless I can find it in a starter set to split with someone.

Edited Monday at 10:57 PM by DemonGSides

[INKS]

While we don't know the prices yet. Squats will be a 2 box team at least. Not sure about Orks. Orks might be a 1 box team?

Nurgle looks like 1 box?

The Space Marines are 2 boxes at least. You can get away with one, but you'll want options.

4 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

The new prices for the KT boxes are legitimate insanity.  I don't understand why anyone would ever pay those prices or buy into KT at these costs.

It's truly mind boggling.  Never have I been more happy to have paid $50 for my Kasrkin before, and glad I grabbed two Aquilons second hand for reduced prices since I had no interest in the KT stuff.  I never would've guessed they'd get this inflated.  Makes me much less interested in any future team that spans both games, unless I can find it in a starter set to split with someone.

Both of those teams are 1 box + a few models for the team. So good on you for getting deal. You can probably magnetize the turret of the Aquilons? Although the turret isn't that good anyways and most of the time you want more troops than the actual turret. Regardless...

[The Yncarne]

Saw a FLGS this weekend charging $80US for the old boxes without the cards. This business model is a stealth price to raise prices on 40K units, but the market will decide if it works.

[ThePenitentOne]

For a lot of teams, if you want extras, you can by 40k boxes. Some of the stuff isn't out in 40k boxes yet, but eventually I imagine they all will be. No need to pay a ridiculous $20 mark up for tokens more than once.

 

But yeah, I agree with the general sentiment- these prices plus the demise of Spec Ops don't leave me very interested. Everyone at my shop is hoping for Spec Ops as an add-on book, and I'll nod and smile because I hope for such a thing, but on the inside I'm managing my expectations. Maybe this will be the game that teaches the company that 3 year update cycles cost more in the long term than the few new players that might be attracted.

[INKS]

4 minutes ago, The Yncarne said:

Saw a FLGS this weekend charging $80US for the old boxes without the cards. This business model is a stealth price to raise prices on 40K units, but the market will decide if it works.

Ouch... that is not cool. I mean the cardboard is kinda worth nothing but still...

 

2 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

For a lot of teams, if you want extras, you can by 40k boxes. Some of the stuff isn't out in 40k boxes yet, but eventually I imagine they all will be. No need to pay a ridiculous $20 mark up for tokens more than once.

 

But yeah, I agree with the general sentiment- these prices plus the demise of Spec Ops don't leave me very interested. Everyone at my shop is hoping for Spec Ops as an add-on book, and I'll nod and smile because I hope for such a thing, but on the inside I'm managing my expectations. Maybe this will be the game that teaches the company that 3 year update cycles cost more in the long term than the few new players that might be attracted.

If this is possible to do then I agree with you. My guess for a number of these will be that GW isn't going to re-rebox scouts until they are no longer supported in kill team - which will be a few years from now. By the time that happens they will cost more than they do now with continued inflation of prices. There are some teams as highlights above that do need things like vet guard, or cultists and so on. And in those cases or even Tau pathfinders / in those cases it's better just to grab the 40k version which is currently cheaper. I would not expect them to stay that way though. Guess we'll see.

[darkhorse0607]

Ah, ok so they are more expensive and I'm not just losing my mind.

 

I hadn't looked at them in a while and went to see how much the Night Lords were (here in the US) and was honestly a little shocked. Figured it was the new kit tax, just to scroll through and see that they're all stupid expensive now

[INKS]

yes all of the reboxing are getting to be in the 80-90 Cdn range now it seems. 

[Urauloth]

This hurts WH40k as well, because kits like Legionaries had their Kill Team upgrades integrated into their 40k unit profiles. It looks like you now have to buy a box of CSM without all the options, or bite the bullet and pay £50 a box if you want your Balefire Acolyte.

[INKS]

22 minutes ago, Urauloth said:

This hurts WH40k as well, because kits like Legionaries had their Kill Team upgrades integrated into their 40k unit profiles. It looks like you now have to buy a box of CSM without all the options, or bite the bullet and pay £50 a box if you want your Balefire Acolyte.

not 100% sure on that but it seems so.

[Evil Eye]

I'm sure this is a major slowpoke.jpg moment here but, I'm really annoyed at the direction Kill Team seems to have gone in. IMO at least, a KT should be a player's opportunity to put together their own unique little gang of guys and go wild with conversions for specialists, team leaders etc. The shift to having almost entirely pre-built teams with very little room for meaningful customization beyond "Do I take this pre-made guy or that pre-made guy" just seems antithetical to what makes the smaller skirmish games interesting IMO. The fact that you're effectively forced to buy these very expensive boxes (which they're now going to rotate in and out of production/support!) really bites.

[Special Officer Doofy]

17 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I'm sure this is a major slowpoke.jpg moment here but, I'm really annoyed at the direction Kill Team seems to have gone in. IMO at least, a KT should be a player's opportunity to put together their own unique little gang of guys and go wild with conversions for specialists, team leaders etc. The shift to having almost entirely pre-built teams with very little room for meaningful customization beyond "Do I take this pre-made guy or that pre-made guy" just seems antithetical to what makes the smaller skirmish games interesting IMO. The fact that you're effectively forced to buy these very expensive boxes (which they're now going to rotate in and out of production/support!) really bites.

 

Now I know virtually nothing about kill team (don't care for skirmish games), but is GW's target customer for this game existing hobbiest to get new squads and make custom conversions or is it for new customers to get into the hobby at a cheaper price than full on 40k and are doing it with "pre-made guys" that are new player friendly? Because it probably can't be both. When GW tries to please everyone they tend to please no one.

[darkhorse0607]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

I'm sure this is a major slowpoke.jpg moment here but, I'm really annoyed at the direction Kill Team seems to have gone in. IMO at least, a KT should be a player's opportunity to put together their own unique little gang of guys and go wild with conversions for specialists, team leaders etc. The shift to having almost entirely pre-built teams with very little room for meaningful customization beyond "Do I take this pre-made guy or that pre-made guy" just seems antithetical to what makes the smaller skirmish games interesting IMO. The fact that you're effectively forced to buy these very expensive boxes (which they're now going to rotate in and out of production/support!) really bites.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that how kill team started? At least this version of it? I vaguely recall that being the discussion a few years ago

 

And now that's semi gone, so you have to buy pre-made teams?

[ZeroWolf]

I think KT18 was more how Evil Eye described but KT21 did away with all that.

[zulu.tango]

GW now considers Kill-Team to be successful enough its less of a "specialist" game and more of a main-line game. Which is to say that it isn't intended to be part of the 40k "pipeline". Kill team is its own thing, the rules are almost entirely different from 40k and while they're making all the kill-team models usable in 40k that feels like an afterthought rather than a feature. Combat patrol and boarding actions are the "Want to get into 40k? Here's step one" formats these days.

The updated prices are bananas. No disagreement there. 

Does GW control any of their print manufacturing? I know they have the plastic manufacturing factories, but to my knowledge they sub contract out all of their printing needs right? Its one of the reasons card-based products are always so spotty in their availability if memory serves. If that's still true I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the major things driving up the box prices (second only to good ol' fashioned greed). 

[INKS]

13 minutes ago, zulu.tango said:

GW now considers Kill-Team to be successful enough its less of a "specialist" game and more of a main-line game. Which is to say that it isn't intended to be part of the 40k "pipeline". Kill team is its own thing, the rules are almost entirely different from 40k and while they're making all the kill-team models usable in 40k that feels like an afterthought rather than a feature. Combat patrol and boarding actions are the "Want to get into 40k? Here's step one" formats these days.

The updated prices are bananas. No disagreement there. 

Does GW control any of their print manufacturing? I know they have the plastic manufacturing factories, but to my knowledge they sub contract out all of their printing needs right? Its one of the reasons card-based products are always so spotty in their availability if memory serves. If that's still true I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the major things driving up the box prices (second only to good ol' fashioned greed). 

Cards, the tokens, books and so forth are to my knowledge all done by a 3rd party. This does drive up cost. But when it comes to printing and cardboard. I have worked in that field. I know generally speaking what the prices are and how companies are billed. And when it comes to a company like GW they are getting one of the best discounts they can because of the quantity. Not to mention the quality they are using for card stock isn't that top tier, its mid tier at best, and the card board for tokens is bottom tier. The print quality isn't even that spectacular. 

 

I will give an example - Amazon used to and still does on some occasions send you a box that is 20 sizes too large. Why? Because the box company they contract (they actually contract more than one, because the volume they need is insane) give them such a large discount that boxes cost them almost nothing. So they do not care about waste in their case. They can send you a box the size of a fridge for the hobby knife you bought because their cost is so low. (I am exaggerating on size here a little). Within the last few years they have switched more to pouches. why? cost of delivery and not cost of boxes. GW is not as large as Amazon, but I promise you they are getting one hell of a discount with whomever they use to print these things.

[zulu.tango]

I don't expect that the price of cardboard alone drove up those prices, but the logistics of getting them from the factory into the same box as the plastics costs more than just printing them. Plus they have to project their production runs, and they can't just re-print the models without the tokens, so now every production run is hand-cuffed to the availability of the paper-product. 

 

Underworlds showcased this problem to its most extreme. Warbands couldn't easily be re-printed because any re-print of the models was married to them having to order a new run of the included cards. Ultimately I think the decision to include the cardboard will probably result in certain teams becoming harder and harder as there will be fewer production run after the initial release. 

[INKS]

This is a problem they are creating for themselves, not because we need tokens but because they need a reason to rebox and charge more.

some teams don't even get tokens. See the chaos cult above. lol Because the team is too complicated they don't even have a box. You need at least 3 boxes to play them.

[Redcomet]

No way I am ever paying 47£ for a box of scouts for 40k.

 

After spending some time with a much smaller income, my warhammer buys has plummeted. And I don’t see it going up again now that I have a job again. It just doesn’t have the value anymore for me. 
 

 

[Dark Shepherd]

I wouldve thought blank boxes for Amazon would be cheap but heavy duty boxes for eg Leviathan would be expensive enough or printed boxes in general?

 

Either way Id be curious about the cost/utility/margin on reboxing existing kits

[phandaal]

56 minutes ago, INKS said:

This is a problem they are creating for themselves, not because we need tokens but because they need a reason to rebox and charge more.

some teams don't even get tokens. See the chaos cult above. lol Because the team is too complicated they don't even have a box. You need at least 3 boxes to play them.

 

I think the cost is just because they can. I have heard the chatter as well about the "token tax" but that sounds more like a fan-created problem than something GW would care about. Whether the boxes are an entry point to X or Y also sounds like something fan-created.

 

People buy this stuff for the mainline game, and mainline GW game collectors are whales. Doubt the calculus is much more complicated than that. How much can we charge before it breaks the current price point for a single unit? OK let's do that, and next year we will charge a little bit more.

[Special Officer Doofy]

1 hour ago, phandaal said:

Whether the boxes are an entry point to X or Y also sounds like something fan-created.

 

People buy this stuff for the mainline game, and mainline GW game collectors are whales.

 

So the idea of a billion dollar company that does hundreds of millions of dollars in toy sales has a marketing strategy when it comes to customer acquisition with smaller cheaper games is fan created, but the idea that people buy the skirmish game products for the main game and they are all "whales" is not fan created?

[INKS]

2 hours ago, Dark Shepherd said:

I wouldve thought blank boxes for Amazon would be cheap but heavy duty boxes for eg Leviathan would be expensive enough or printed boxes in general?

 

Either way Id be curious about the cost/utility/margin on reboxing existing kits

It is true for large boxes like Leviathan and because it's printed all over it would cost more than a plain box that size. 100% but we are not talking BIG BUCKS here. Keep in mind that the plain corrugated boxes cost more because 1: it uses more material than a GW box even if the GW box seems like it uses more because it's thicker as individual slices - but 2 because you need a special machine that does the corrugating. GW boxes like Leviathan can be done on a regular machine. You are right in that printing and ink generally will cost more than the carboard itself. But the cost is not as large as you would think. The quality of the ink and the cardboard is not top tier in either case.

 

As an example, I once did a wrath of the lich king display board that holds boxes, it was about 3-4 feet tall. only the top of it was really detailed but there was ink all over it. that is a more complex piece with all kinds of different thickness and art done to it and it needed to be assembled. That was costly for blizzard. And they made no money from it because all it did was hold boxes of WOTLK for sale. Regardless even though it was costly their discount was HUGE because they ordered so many of them.

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, Special Officer Doofy said:

 

So the idea of a billion dollar company that does hundreds of millions of dollars in toy sales has a marketing strategy when it comes to customer acquisition with smaller cheaper games is fan created, but the idea that people buy the skirmish game products for the main game and they are all "whales" is not fan created?

 

You could try responding to what I actually wrote instead of making up something ridiculous.

 

Here is what I said - I think the idea of Kill Team (the thing that is the topic of this thread - not "small games" ) as an entry point to 40k seems like something people talk about but GW does not seem to be doing.

 

The subtext that we all know is that GW does in fact already produce two smaller entry points for 40k: Boarding Actions and Combat Patrol (you know, the game mode that GW calls "the quickest and most straightforward way to start collecting and playing Warhammer 40,000"). I also do not think GW is seriously considering that they just have to raise prices because there are some extra cardboard tokens in the box. I do think they are seriously considering whether they can raise prices though. You follow me?

 

As for whales... Are we going to sit here and pretend that GW miniatures collectors are not willing to pay prices that are significantly higher than any other comparable miniatures game? I mean, you can if you want, but I won't.

Edited Tuesday at 11:54 PM by phandaal

[Special Officer Doofy]

23 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

You could try responding to what I actually wrote instead of making up something ridiculous.

 

Here is what I said - I think the idea of Kill Team (the thing that is the topic of this thread - not "small games" ) as an entry point to 40k seems like something people talk about but GW does not seem to be doing.

 

The subtext that we all know is that GW does in fact already produce two smaller entry points for 40k: Boarding Actions and Combat Patrol (you know, the game mode that GW calls "the quickest and most straightforward way to start collecting and playing Warhammer 40,000"). I also do not think GW is seriously considering that they just have to raise prices because there are some extra cardboard tokens in the box. I do think they are seriously considering whether they can raise prices though. You follow me?

 

As for whales... Are we going to sit here and pretend that GW miniatures collectors are not willing to pay prices that are significantly higher than any other comparable miniatures game? I mean, you can if you want, but I won't.

 

I quoted the two sentences I responded to, the rest was about pricing and the addition of the tokens. I didn't disagree with any of that part you said. Just these two sentences:

 

On 10/22/2024 at 4:55 PM, phandaal said:

Whether the boxes are an entry point to X or Y also sounds like something fan-created.

 

You dismissed the idea that Kill Team is intentionally a possible entry point to 40k as something fan-created. It is a small model count and cheaper skirmish game. And is combat patrol a smaller game than kill team? A combat patrol is $168 (US) and comes with more models than a Kill Team and costs more (but yes, you get more). I know more people that got into the hobby (of 40k in general) from kill team rather than combat patrol. Then you said:

 

On 10/22/2024 at 4:55 PM, phandaal said:

People buy this stuff for the mainline game, and mainline GW game collectors are whales.

 

This statement seems more fan-created to me than the quote before it. People who collect miniatures via something like kill team for other GW games are automatically a whale? GW miniatures cost more because it's the name brand, largest game, easiest to find someone to play with, in my opinion look better than most of the competition, and lastly because they can charge that much. I'm not disagreeing with you on that last part not being cool. I'm not implying GW is anyone's friend, but to call someone a whale for buying a KT for 10th edition seems a bit hyperbolic.

Edited Wednesday at 11:19 PM by Special Officer Doofy