Is Mephiston underwhelming?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

He’s one of the most powerful if not the most powerful psyker in the imperium…yet his psychic attack is 3A S4 AP-1 D d3…sustained is meh. Or S5 AP-2.

 

and he is kinda scary to units falling back, and is fast…

 

idk, just looking at his in game psychic profile just doesn’t scream extremely powerful vampire space wizard to me.

 

at 3 attacks I feel the two profiles should be better. Like the base A5 S4 AP-2 D2 <sustained><etc>and the ‘focused’ A2 S6 AP-3 D3 <hazardous><etc>

 

edit 

the standard librarian ranged attacks are more powerful as best I can tell….

Edited November 9 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Karhedron]

I kinda viewed his boosted stats as partly being psychically fuelled. After all, he hits at S9 (or S11 in the LAG) which is pretty beefy. In previous editions, his psychic powers have usually been less than those of chief Librarians in other chapters but he makes up for it with his scarier melee attacks.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

15 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I kinda viewed his boosted stats as partly being psychically fuelled. After all, he hits at S9 (or S11 in the LAG) which is pretty beefy. In previous editions, his psychic powers have usually been less than those of chief Librarians in other chapters but he makes up for it with his scarier melee attacks.

Idk, even with his melee stats he just doesn’t scream most powerful psyker in the imperium, particularly when the ranged psychic attacks are so weak when compared to standard librarians.

 

if his ranged psychic attacks were on par with standard libbys, I could see that PoV.

[Blindhamster]

I think he really should have had two different ranged powers, the one he has and blood lance.

 

his current one is in some ways worse than a regular librarian yes, but in other ways its better.

• its got a consistent number of attacks, where the librarian will be swingy, that said, sure the librarian MIGHT get 6 attacks, but then again so MIGHT mephiston due to sustained hits
• speaking of, it has sustained hits 1, which means if you can give him rerolls, its worth fishing.
• it hits on 2s where the librarian hits on 3s
• it does d3 damage per hit where the librarian does 1
• finally, importantly it has pistol, which means he can shoot even when engaged. That's handy because he's a lone operative and somewhat more likely to be flying solo, so is more likely to get stuck in combat than most.

it has a shorter range and 1 pip less strength than standard smite.

 

And if you focused witchfire them, the smite might get to ignore armour saves, which is quite spicy, where mephiston might get 3 extra hits, also quite spicy, otherwise the pros and cons of them remain the same.

 

Based on the above, I wouldn't say fury of the ancients is weaker, it just isn't much better, its more of a side grade.

 

However, what I WOULD say is if you compare him to his piers:

 

Tigarius: same range, d6 or 2d6 shots, hits on 2s, has blast, ALWAYS strength 6, ALWAYS AP-2, ALWAYS damage 2. Clearly Tiggy has Mephiston beat on ranged pyshich powers. Tiggy is pretty good in melee too, but mephistons sword is 2 higher strength, 4 if in liberator and charging and has an extra pip of AP and an extra attack and hits on 2s. Clearly mephistons power is focused in his melee side like @Karhedron said. He's cheap

 

Ezekiel: only 12" range, only 1 attack, hits on 2s, ALWAYS strength 6 and is damage d6! And has devastating wounds and precision. focused version having anti-character 4+ with the devastating wounds and d6 damage is brutal... that said, 1 attack. He's super swingy and I think Mephiston would do more damage most of the time. I'd say a sidegrade rather than straight up better. Ezekiels melee is about on par with Tiggys, he does hit on 2s though... That said, he's also cheap points wise.

 

Njal: This is, imo the most interesting comparison to mephiston because its thematically similar. Its got longer range than mephiston (24"), d6 or 2d6 attacks, only hits on 3s, but is ALWAYS strength 7 API -1 and damage 1. But.. it has sustained hits 2 all the time. Basically its for hitting fodder, which is, broadly what I think mephistons is for as well, but Njal having sustained hits 2 base as well as d6 or 2d6 attacks and the high strength means he has a good chance of getting a lot of hits and getting a good amount through.. that said hitting on 3s means its riskier to fish. I think this might be slightly better than mephistons overall, but not as much so as Tigarius. His melee is also worse than Tigarius. He's fairly cheap

 

For me the big thing is, all three of these guys are barely more than half the points of mephiston. Njal is most expensive at 85 points where Tiggy and Ezekiel are both only 75.. Mephiston is a fairly eye watering 125, generally I think its easier to use his piers because they're cheaper and buff a unit, Njal providing -1 to wound vs psychic attacks is situational, but cool. Same goes for Ezekiels 4+ FnP vs psychic attacks, Tigarius grants the same as Ezekiel AND it also works vs mortals.. AND he provides -1 to hit against his unit AND a free strat... he just gives a lot for such a cheap price, especially when I'd say he has the best ranged power AND is better than all but mephiston in melee too lol.

 

By comparison, Mephiston doesn't buff anyone else, but he is fairly quick compared to the others thanks to highest base movement stat and the ability to advance and charge all the time. Lone operative means he's relatively safe till he gets to whatever you want him to target generally. And he's harder to kill than all the others even if something can actually attack him (2+/5++/4+++ with 6 wounds and toughness 5, so he has a worse invulnerable than the rest, but the always on FnP is huge, he's also as tough as Njal, with more wounds than all of them and a better save than Tiggy). I think Mephiston requires a combination of finesse and luck to play well and make him earn his points back.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

I think he really should have had two different ranged powers, the one he has and blood lance.

 

his current one is in some ways worse than a regular librarian yes, but in other ways its better.

• its got a consistent number of attacks, where the librarian will be swingy, that said, sure the librarian MIGHT get 6 attacks, but then again so MIGHT mephiston due to sustained hits
• speaking of, it has sustained hits 1, which means if you can give him rerolls, its worth fishing.
• it hits on 2s where the librarian hits on 3s
• it does d3 damage per hit where the librarian does 1
• finally, importantly it has pistol, which means he can shoot even when engaged. That's handy because he's a lone operative and somewhat more likely to be flying solo, so is more likely to get stuck in combat than most.

it has a shorter range and 1 pip less strength than standard smite.

 

And if you focused witchfire them, the smite might get to ignore armour saves, which is quite spicy, where mephiston might get 3 extra hits, also quite spicy, otherwise the pros and cons of them remain the same.

 

Based on the above, I wouldn't say fury of the ancients is weaker, it just isn't much better, its more of a side grade.

 

However, what I WOULD say is if you compare him to his piers:

 

Tigarius: same range, d6 or 2d6 shots, hits on 2s, has blast, ALWAYS strength 6, ALWAYS AP-2, ALWAYS damage 2. Clearly Tiggy has Mephiston beat on ranged pyshich powers. Tiggy is pretty good in melee too, but mephistons sword is 2 higher strength, 4 if in liberator and charging and has an extra pip of AP and an extra attack and hits on 2s. Clearly mephistons power is focused in his melee side like @Karhedron said. He's cheap

 

Ezekiel: only 12" range, only 1 attack, hits on 2s, ALWAYS strength 6 and is damage d6! And has devastating wounds and precision. focused version having anti-character 4+ with the devastating wounds and d6 damage is brutal... that said, 1 attack. He's super swingy and I think Mephiston would do more damage most of the time. I'd say a sidegrade rather than straight up better. Ezekiels melee is about on par with Tiggys, he does hit on 2s though... That said, he's also cheap points wise.

 

Njal: This is, imo the most interesting comparison to mephiston because its thematically similar. Its got longer range than mephiston (24"), d6 or 2d6 attacks, only hits on 3s, but is ALWAYS strength 7 API -1 and damage 1. But.. it has sustained hits 2 all the time. Basically its for hitting fodder, which is, broadly what I think mephistons is for as well, but Njal having sustained hits 2 base as well as d6 or 2d6 attacks and the high strength means he has a good chance of getting a lot of hits and getting a good amount through.. that said hitting on 3s means its riskier to fish. I think this might be slightly better than mephistons overall, but not as much so as Tigarius. His melee is also worse than Tigarius. He's fairly cheap

 

For me the big thing is, all three of these guys are barely more than half the points of mephiston. Njal is most expensive at 85 points where Tiggy and Ezekiel are both only 75.. Mephiston is a fairly eye watering 125, generally I think its easier to use his piers because they're cheaper and buff a unit, Njal providing -1 to wound vs psychic attacks is situational, but cool. Same goes for Ezekiels 4+ FnP vs psychic attacks, Tigarius grants the same as Ezekiel AND it also works vs mortals.. AND he provides -1 to hit against his unit AND a free strat... he just gives a lot for such a cheap price, especially when I'd say he has the best ranged power AND is better than all but mephiston in melee too lol.

 

By comparison, Mephiston doesn't buff anyone else, but he is fairly quick compared to the others thanks to highest base movement stat and the ability to advance and charge all the time. Lone operative means he's relatively safe till he gets to whatever you want him to target generally. And he's harder to kill than all the others even if something can actually attack him (2+/5++/4+++ with 6 wounds and toughness 5, so he has a worse invulnerable than the rest, but the always on FnP is huge, he's also as tough as Njal, with more wounds than all of them and a better save than Tiggy). I think Mephiston requires a combination of finesse and luck to play well and make him earn his points back.

 

 

Your break down just makes me feel like he’s even more underwhelming.

[Blindhamster]

• He's significantly better at melee than any of the others (seriously, it's not even close)
  • Assuming liberator force: 7 strength 11 AP -3 damage d3 lethal hits attacks hitting on 2s
    • is generally enough to threaten small elite units or lone characters or mid level monsters/vehicles. None of the others come remotely close to that, and whats more, because of fights first, charging him is rarely a good idea either. He will wound most infantry, even tougher infantry on 2s.
  • Tiggy has 5 strength 7 AP -2 damage d3 hitting on 3s
    • its a worse profile and only hitting on 3s kind of sucks.
  • Ezekiel has 5 strength 6 AP -2 damage d3 hitting on 2s, anti chaos 2+
    • Anti chaos 2+ is cool, but super situational. He does hit on 2s, i've factored in his extra attack but actually he only has 4 attacks if he's not leading a unit.
  • Njal has 4 strength 7 AP -1 damage d3 hitting on 3s, but does have sustained hits 2
    • sustained hits 2 is cool, but everything else is just so much worse
• He's faster than any of the others (base movement + advance and charge + fights first)
  • Tiggy is movement 6, nothing else to note
  • Ezekiel is movement 6, nothing else to note
  • Njal is movement 5, nothing else to note
• He's tougher than any of the others (better base stats (toughness 5, 6 wounds, 2+/5++/4+++) and lone operative benefits for shooting and fights first counter to being charged, he also is in the safest position to attempt focused witchfire for his power as his FnP will protect him whilst the other psykers don't get that benefit.)
  • covered this above, he's just on a vastly different level than the others..
  • Tiggy is only 4 wounds, toughness 4 with 3+/4++
  • Ezekiel is only 4 wounds, toughness 4 with 2+/4++
  • Njal is 5 wounds, toughness 5 with 2+/4++, he DOES have -1 to wound whilst leading a unit though, still generally worse than mephiston because the always on FnP really is a big deal on mephiston for blunting the impact of multi damage attacks 50% of the time.
• His actual ranged psychic power is worse than tiggy, but IMO has more utility than Ezekiel and is probably on average par for the course compared to Njal.
  • won't cover this again in detail, but I reiterate, that yes his is lower strength, its either more attacks or more consistent and better damage

Mephiston doesn't buff units, but provides utility due to his profile and capabilities, he's the sort of lone operative that will cause problems because he CAN threaten anything toughness 11 or lower, and his ranged and melee output is good enough to actively threaten entire units of MEQ.

 

Really the only "problem" he has is that Tiggy is absolutely under costed for what he provides, but he does sit at the bottom of the pile for both melee and durability. And he (Mephiston) is probably still a bit overcosted for what he provides, but Mephiston should cost more than the Njal or Ezekiel IMO.

 

 

Edited November 10 by Blindhamster

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

I think he really should have had two different ranged powers, the one he has and blood lance.

 

his current one is in some ways worse than a regular librarian yes, but in other ways its better.

• its got a consistent number of attacks, where the librarian will be swingy, that said, sure the librarian MIGHT get 6 attacks, but then again so MIGHT mephiston due to sustained hits
• speaking of, it has sustained hits 1, which means if you can give him rerolls, its worth fishing.
• it hits on 2s where the librarian hits on 3s
• it does d3 damage per hit where the librarian does 1
• finally, importantly it has pistol, which means he can shoot even when engaged. That's handy because he's a lone operative and somewhat more likely to be flying solo, so is more likely to get stuck in combat than most.

it has a shorter range and 1 pip less strength than standard smite.

 

And if you focused witchfire them, the smite might get to ignore armour saves, which is quite spicy, where mephiston might get 3 extra hits, also quite spicy, otherwise the pros and cons of them remain the same.

 

Based on the above, I wouldn't say fury of the ancients is weaker, it just isn't much better, its more of a side grade.

 

However, what I WOULD say is if you compare him to his piers:

 

Tigarius: same range, d6 or 2d6 shots, hits on 2s, has blast, ALWAYS strength 6, ALWAYS AP-2, ALWAYS damage 2. Clearly Tiggy has Mephiston beat on ranged pyshich powers. Tiggy is pretty good in melee too, but mephistons sword is 2 higher strength, 4 if in liberator and charging and has an extra pip of AP and an extra attack and hits on 2s. Clearly mephistons power is focused in his melee side like @Karhedron said. He's cheap

 

Ezekiel: only 12" range, only 1 attack, hits on 2s, ALWAYS strength 6 and is damage d6! And has devastating wounds and precision. focused version having anti-character 4+ with the devastating wounds and d6 damage is brutal... that said, 1 attack. He's super swingy and I think Mephiston would do more damage most of the time. I'd say a sidegrade rather than straight up better. Ezekiels melee is about on par with Tiggys, he does hit on 2s though... That said, he's also cheap points wise.

 

Njal: This is, imo the most interesting comparison to mephiston because its thematically similar. Its got longer range than mephiston (24"), d6 or 2d6 attacks, only hits on 3s, but is ALWAYS strength 7 API -1 and damage 1. But.. it has sustained hits 2 all the time. Basically its for hitting fodder, which is, broadly what I think mephistons is for as well, but Njal having sustained hits 2 base as well as d6 or 2d6 attacks and the high strength means he has a good chance of getting a lot of hits and getting a good amount through.. that said hitting on 3s means its riskier to fish. I think this might be slightly better than mephistons overall, but not as much so as Tigarius. His melee is also worse than Tigarius. He's fairly cheap

 

For me the big thing is, all three of these guys are barely more than half the points of mephiston. Njal is most expensive at 85 points where Tiggy and Ezekiel are both only 75.. Mephiston is a fairly eye watering 125, generally I think its easier to use his piers because they're cheaper and buff a unit, Njal providing -1 to wound vs psychic attacks is situational, but cool. Same goes for Ezekiels 4+ FnP vs psychic attacks, Tigarius grants the same as Ezekiel AND it also works vs mortals.. AND he provides -1 to hit against his unit AND a free strat... he just gives a lot for such a cheap price, especially when I'd say he has the best ranged power AND is better than all but mephiston in melee too lol.

 

By comparison, Mephiston doesn't buff anyone else, but he is fairly quick compared to the others thanks to highest base movement stat and the ability to advance and charge all the time. Lone operative means he's relatively safe till he gets to whatever you want him to target generally. And he's harder to kill than all the others even if something can actually attack him (2+/5++/4+++ with 6 wounds and toughness 5, so he has a worse invulnerable than the rest, but the always on FnP is huge, he's also as tough as Njal, with more wounds than all of them and a better save than Tiggy). I think Mephiston requires a combination of finesse and luck to play well and make him earn his points back.

 

 

Those guys are half the points of Mephiston because Mephiston pays for Lone Op, which none of those Librarians get and therefore NEED a retinue. 

 

Ultimately you have to get him combat by T2-3 with something he'll kill most of or all, and use threat saturation of other jump units (obviously). A Lone Op that can bully other units in melee is something that is pretty good, but agreed it needs finesse. 

[AutumnEffect]

7 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

• He's significantly better at melee than any of the others (seriously, it's not even close)
  • Assuming liberator force: 7 strength 11 AP -3 damage d3 lethal hits attacks hitting on 2s
    • is generally enough to threaten small elite units or lone characters or mid level monsters/vehicles. None of the others come remotely close to that, and whats more, because of fights first, charging him is rarely a good idea either. He will wound most infantry, even tougher infantry on 2s.

 

Don't forget Epic Challenge for 1CP which lets him throw all of his attacks on an enemy character.

He has a 54.8% odds to flat out kill a Space Marine Captain in Terminator Armor in one fight phase.

 

He'll eat mid to upper-mid characters for breakfast when he touches their unit like you said, but they don't even have to be alone. 
He's also tougher than a Captain in Terminator Armor (Trading 1 pip of Invuln for 4+ FNP is a good trade), faster and with better melee and ranged weapons.

 

Another comparison is to an Eversor Assassin. They are both Lone Operative melee beatsticks. The Eversor 120 points, Mephiston 125.
The comparison isn't even close. The Eversor is faster but that's the only thing it has going for it. Mephiston is significantly better for just 5 points in every other way but movement.

Edited November 10 by AutumnEffect

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Don't forget Epic Challenge for 1CP which lets him throw all of his attacks on an enemy character.

He has a 54.8% odds to flat out kill a Space Marine Captain in Terminator Armor in one fight phase.

 

He'll eat mid to upper-mid characters for breakfast when he touches their unit like you said, but they don't even have to be alone. 
He's also tougher than a Captain in Terminator Armor (Trading 1 pip of Invuln for 4+ FNP is a good trade), faster and with better melee and ranged weapons.

 

Another comparison is to an Eversor Assassin. They are both Lone Operative melee beatsticks. The Eversor 120 points, Mephiston 125.
The comparison isn't even close. The Eversor is faster but that's the only thing it has going for it. Mephiston is significantly better for just 5 points in every other way but movement.

You may include a bodyguard unit in a leader’s points if you want but I disagree with that.

 

most people I’ve talked to aren’t taking a specific unit to match their leaders, but picking leaders largely to match the units they plan to use.

 

so if I’m taking a BA captain with AIs, then I’m probably taking the AIs regardless, and the leader’s points are adding to the unit. So in this case the captain is just a bonus.

so to me, it makes a big difference that Mephiston is like 60% more than the others.

[Paladin777]

Ordinarily I'd agree, but your specific example of AI is the other way around. You don't take a captain because of the AI, you take AI because of the captain! 
 

the logic checks out on most other units though.

[RyanT2112]

19 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Those guys are half the points of Mephiston because Mephiston pays for Lone Op, which none of those Librarians get and therefore NEED a retinue. 

 

Ultimately you have to get him combat by T2-3 with something he'll kill most of or all, and use threat saturation of other jump units (obviously). A Lone Op that can bully other units in melee is something that is pretty good, but agreed it needs finesse. 

Have you considered that you can't really look at Tiggy for example BECAUSE he must be cheap? The Ultramarines get NO special units except bodyguards for Calgar and a primarch. Otherwise they don't get the blood angel synergy that L.A.G. gives or the special units. So Tiggy shouldn't even be on this list.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, RyanT2112 said:

Have you considered that you can't really look at Tiggy for example BECAUSE he must be cheap? The Ultramarines get NO special units except bodyguards for Calgar and a primarch. Otherwise they don't get the blood angel synergy that L.A.G. gives or the special units. So Tiggy shouldn't even be on this list.

That argument makes absolutely no sense…

especially since you’re wrong

 

unique UM units in the codex

girlyman 

calgar

victrix guard

tigurius

sicarius

ventris

you left out 33% of the unique units they have available…

Edited November 11 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Paladin777 said:

Ordinarily I'd agree, but your specific example of AI is the other way around. You don't take a captain because of the AI, you take AI because of the captain! 
 

the logic checks out on most other units though.

I mean AIs are commonly taken in just about every space marine list I’ve played against regardless of which detachment is being used.

[Xenith]

On 11/9/2024 at 10:49 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Idk, even with his melee stats he just doesn’t scream most powerful psyker in the imperium, particularly when the ranged psychic attacks are so weak when compared to standard librarians.

 

if his ranged psychic attacks were on par with standard libbys, I could see that PoV.

 

Just wait until you hear about Ahriman  A1 S6 AP-1 Dd6. 

 

There are plenty of ways to represent psychics in the game - Eldar farseers for example previously didn't have great shooting.

 

Still, I'd rather thave other ways for him to represent psychic might, like forcing battleshock, rather than better shooting. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Just wait until you hear about Ahriman  A1 S6 AP-1 Dd6. 

 

There are plenty of ways to represent psychics in the game - Eldar farseers for example previously didn't have great shooting.

 

Still, I'd rather thave other ways for him to represent psychic might, like forcing battleshock, rather than better shooting. 

Well that’s what chaos scum gets.

 

the emperor protects.

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, Xenith said:

 

Just wait until you hear about Ahriman  A1 S6 AP-1 Dd6. 

 

 

same as Ezekiel then.

[RyanT2112]

20 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

That argument makes absolutely no sense…

especially since you’re wrong

 

unique UM units in the codex

girlyman 

calgar

victrix guard

tigurius

sicarius

ventris

you left out 33% of the unique units they have available…

 

Characters are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the core codex vs deviant chapters.

 

The Ultramarines lack Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priest, Baal Predator.

 

There are always special characters sure, but theirs are particularly undercosted intentionally as a balance to the fact that they don't have access to the other superior units I listed above. Nor do they have the synergy that Blood Angels get to go with them.

 

So that said, as I mentioned they have a Primarch (vastly unique) and bodyguards (Victrix for Calgar) and that's the only two deviant units. The rest are just characters. Undercosted ones at that.

 

That's my entire point though. Their character costs is how they off-set not having better assault units which marines arguably need. (Thus the success of Assault and Jump Assault intercessors in all marine armies)

 

The entire price point of Mephiston is --

 

-Lone Operative allowing him to hide amongst your forces and do Heroic Intervention to trigger fight's first AND red thirst (you can move through your own models) -- protecting Bladeguard, Assault Intercessors or even tanks.

-Reasonably good amped up shooting psychic power. Not crazy but can proc crazy sustained.

-Exceptionally good melee. Swingy sure, but the profile is good with AP-3 as well.

-Durability on an epic level. Essentially just double his wounds (4+ FNP is the same) except that it can be swingy.

-2+ sv / 5+ invuln means AP-4 still doesn't take him to 6+.

-Toughness 5 is an important breakpoint. Power Fists will only wound him on 3s.

-AURA of "cannot fall back without a leadership test" can help be disruptive. Is it super powerful? Nah. But when it works, your opponent is gonna be irritated.

 

He is worth every penny. Especially when compared to the Assassin or The Sanguinor.

Edited November 12 by RyanT2112

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, RyanT2112 said:

 

Characters are not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the core codex vs deviant chapters.

 

The Ultramarines lack Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinary Priest, Baal Predator.

 

There are always special characters sure, but theirs are particularly undercosted intentionally as a balance to the fact that they don't have access to the other superior units I listed above. Nor do they have the synergy that Blood Angels get to go with them.

 

So that said, as I mentioned they have a Primarch (vastly unique) and bodyguards (Victrix for Calgar) and that's the only two deviant units. The rest are just characters. Undercosted ones at that.

 

That's my entire point though. Their character costs is how they off-set not having better assault units which marines arguably need. (Thus the success of Assault and Jump Assault intercessors in all marine armies)

 

The entire price point of Mephiston is --

 

-Lone Operative allowing him to hide amongst your forces and do Heroic Intervention to trigger fight's first AND red thirst (you can move through your own models) -- protecting Bladeguard, Assault Intercessors or even tanks.

-Reasonably good amped up shooting psychic power. Not crazy but can proc crazy sustained.

-Exceptionally good melee. Swingy sure, but the profile is good with AP-3 as well.

-Durability on an epic level. Essentially just double his wounds (4+ FNP is the same) except that it can be swingy.

-2+ sv / 5+ invuln means AP-4 still doesn't take him to 6+.

-Toughness 5 is an important breakpoint. Power Fists will only wound him on 3s.

-AURA of "cannot fall back without a leadership test" can help be disruptive. Is it super powerful? Nah. But when it works, your opponent is gonna be irritated.

 

He is worth every penny. Especially when compared to the Assassin or The Sanguinor.

And? So what if they don’t get the BA units?

BA don’t get victrix guard, calgar, tigurius, or any other UM specific units.

 

lone operative doesn’t remotely justify his price.

 

only 1 generic and 1 unique character can join SG, and only DC captains can join any DC unit.

 

That doesn’t really explain why other characters in the marine dex aren’t equally as cheap

 

thr iron father is nearly twice the price of a techmarine 

 

shrine is like 15 points more than generic jump captain

 

kantor is 10 more points than a generic captain 

vulkan is 20 more points than a generic captain.

 

none of those chapters have access to any special squads or vehicles either yet they’re more expensive than generic counter parts or UM counter parts.

ventris is 75 points and kantor is 90…I don’t really believe that kantor is that much better and still costs more than the BAC.

 

the DCC that can actually join a specialist BA unit is also 10 points cheaper than the BAC.

 

dante and minimum SG is 265 points compared to calgar and his guard at only 185 points.…the extra bodyguard model and jump pack don’t justify that points difference.

 

VG, gets 5 attacks at S5 hitting on 2+  AP-2 D2

SG swords (the best option) gets 4 attacks hitting on 3+ at S6 AP-3 D2.

so they’re relatively even, but the SG cost nearly as much as calgar and his guard…

Edited November 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[AutumnEffect]

On 11/10/2024 at 6:42 PM, RyanT2112 said:

Have you considered that you can't really look at Tiggy for example BECAUSE he must be cheap? The Ultramarines get NO special units except bodyguards for Calgar and a primarch. Otherwise they don't get the blood angel synergy that L.A.G. gives or the special units. So Tiggy shouldn't even be on this list.

 

Honestly, Tiggy is terrible though. I'm not quite sure why we are talking about him
Trading a 4+ invuln from the regular Librarian for -1 to hit and free-use of some mediocre generic strats is a bad trade even if you didn't pay 10 more points for the privilege. He's a niche pick for Bladeguard.

[Blindhamster]

7 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Honestly, Tiggy is terrible though. I'm not quite sure why we are talking about him
Trading a 4+ invuln from the regular Librarian for -1 to hit and free-use of some mediocre generic strats is a bad trade even if you didn't pay 10 more points for the privilege. He's a niche pick for Bladeguard.

his psychic power is pretty great.

[DemonGSides]

13 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

And? So what if they don’t get the BA units?

BA don’t get victrix guard, calgar, tigurius, or any other UM specific units.

 

lone operative doesn’t remotely justify his price.

 

only 1 generic and 1 unique character can join SG, and only DC captains can join any DC unit.

 

That doesn’t really explain why other characters in the marine dex aren’t equally as cheap

 

thr iron father is nearly twice the price of a techmarine 

 

shrine is like 15 points more than generic jump captain

 

kantor is 10 more points than a generic captain 

vulkan is 20 more points than a generic captain.

 

none of those chapters have access to any special squads or vehicles either yet they’re more expensive than generic counter parts or UM counter parts.

ventris is 75 points and kantor is 90…I don’t really believe that kantor is that much better and still costs more than the BAC.

 

the DCC that can actually join a specialist BA unit is also 10 points cheaper than the BAC.

 

dante and minimum SG is 265 points compared to calgar and his guard at only 185 points.…the extra bodyguard model and jump pack don’t justify that points difference.

 

VG, gets 5 attacks at S5 hitting on 2+  AP-2 D2

SG swords (the best option) gets 4 attacks hitting on 3+ at S6 AP-3 D2.

so they’re relatively even, but the SG cost nearly as much as calgar and his guard…

 

It kinda feels like most of your comparisons are only comparing the things you want but conveniently ignoring the other factors, or worse, you just dismiss the other factors that would matter as not enough.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

It kinda feels like most of your comparisons are only comparing the things you want but conveniently ignoring the other factors, or worse, you just dismiss the other factors that would matter as not enough.

 

 

I dismissed nothing.

i simply pointed out UM characters are absolutely under costed, even compared to other generic characters who have the same draw backs as their UM counter parts.

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I dismissed nothing.

i simply pointed out UM characters are absolutely under costed, even compared to other generic characters who have the same draw backs as their UM counter parts.

 

Okay fine, so you admit you're only comparing partials instead of the whole package. That might be why you're coming up short compared to everyone else with the Mephiston evaluation.

[Blindhamster]

I do think it’s true the ultramarine characters specifically are under costed relative to other codex marine choices and I do think mephiston is probably a little over costed still specifically because all of his stuff is so swingy. But I’d still say he’s amazing personally. I think he stacks up positively to every other chief librarian (including traitor equivalents apparently) pretty favourably. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Okay fine, so you admit you're only comparing partials instead of the whole package. That might be why you're coming up short compared to everyone else with the Mephiston evaluation.

What whole package?

im comparing generic codex characters to other generic codex characters.

Edited November 12 by Karhedron
Personal attack