Attilan Cavalry Charge

[Tawnis]

So, I'm a big fan of pressure lists that go fast, I've been maining Kroot for several years now to much success and have really fallen in love with the absurdity of cavalry in the 41st Millennium. 

 

With the pending Krieg Cavalry on the Horizon, I've been looking at the Attilian Roughriders and they seem amazing. For 485 points, you get 30 Cavalry and Lord Solar who can join them (and whom most competitive lists were taking anyway). You've got a massive threat range with your 12" (or 15" with orders) move that can never be reduced and with Fix Bayonets (if you don't need the extra move) and Lance, you're hitting on 2's and wounding even the heaviest of vehicles on 4's for a bunch of Ap-4 D6 hits (or your decimating infantry with the blast Frag Tips). On top of all that, they have in built fall back shoot and charge and can be revived with the Reinforcements strat. 

 

So... why isn't this played more? I don't think I've ever seen anyone run Atillians. 

Edited November 20 by Tawnis

[DemonGSides]

They were around for a little bit earlier in the year, especially when Kasrkin took their first hit.

I think putting Lord Solar with them is probably a mistake, as they aren't that tough.  They tend to get evaporated and lean on Reinforcements, and losing Solar is about as devastating to the game plan as it gets; he still probably benefits most by sitting behind some LOS blocking terrain and having the bonus from a Voxcaster making his order reach even farther.

BUT with the new rumored hero coming out, hopefully he can lead them to give them orders.  Otherwise, they are Regiment so anyone who's sort of nearby; say, a deepstriking Scion squad or a walking on with them Kasrkin+Castellan or even maybe a reappearing Gaunt's Ghosts, can all give them an order I think they unfortunately desperately need.

Just sort of ok without the order, downright fearsome with them.  Almost a requirement to be in 10 mans tho is kinda rough too.  Plus coming in a box of 5, whew, it's an expensive prospect to build up more than a squad.

I like em though!  I try to run 10 whenever, though Aquilons do a similar objective job, so they've taken the place recently, though I did run 5 in my Baneblade game I posted about the other day.

[AutumnEffect]

8 hours ago, Tawnis said:

So... why isn't this played more? I don't think I've ever seen anyone run Atillians. 

 

Because they are big, hard to hide models that die like dogs and are gimped by Mounted keyword interactions.

 

Toughness 4 and 2 wounds with 4+ is middling, but they are big models that cannot move through the walls of Ruins (the most common terrain type) as they are neither Infantry nor Beasts but Mounted models. This can make it hard for them to get the benefit of cover and also makes it difficult for them to physically charge units that are in cover. They cannot move through the walls of Ruins like infantry can. They also cannot move to the second floor of Ruins, so just careful placement of the enemy squad in the second floor of a tall building can neuter them.

Like @DemonGSides mentioned, putting Lord Solar in them is a mistake as he's much better off sitting out of line of sight with a Master Vox in a fat infantry blob (and maybe an Ogryn Bodyguard but that could just be me.)

They can be very good, but while taking 30 of them would definitely be fun, it's too much of your army that simply can't interact with the terrain on most tables. Fielding 30 of them, on anything other than what would be (funnily enough) actually good cavalry terrain of an open battlefield would start to get really, really finicky to get stuck in with them. Your movement/charge lanes are going to get very clogged up.
But also, ironically, in an open battlefield they are more susceptible to getting shot off the table. They can't even use Go to Ground like Infantry can for a cheeky Cover and 6++.

 

TLDR: Mounted units are harder to use on the table than their profile lets on.

Edited November 19 by AutumnEffect

[Tawnis]

That is a good point about Lord Solar, it's not like there's any real benefit to putting him on the squad other than to paint a giant target on a reasonably squishy unit. My thought was more if you drilled the full 30 into a flank and heavily mauler it or even wiped it out, your opponent would have to wildly reortiant to deal with the threat which could let you capitalize in other areas. 

I can see their durability being a big issue, that's a good point, but it's not like you're paying a lot for those models (in points at least). At 12 points per, they have the same total wounds as 20 Guardsmen. You're more vulnerable to D2 weapons, but less to blast and have a better save. It's not like you're putting a massive investment into this. 

As someone who plays a lot of cavalry on larger bases and does very well with them, (I went 4-1 in my last tournament running 12 Rampagers, 9 Krootox and 3 Lone Spears, all of which have a larger bases and lower movement than the Atillians, upside is they are FAR more durable units) if you plan your game around the restrictions of cavalry, it's rarely an impactful downside, especially when you have a threat range as long as the Atillians do. Against shooting lists, you charge them up to provide a threat they have to deal with before dealing with whatever you've got on objectives, and against melee heavy, you can provide a solid counterpunch threat across nearly the entire table if positioned properly. 

[DemonGSides]

Shooting army is just gonna evaporate them though. They almost HAVE to be walk on units because they are just so dang squishy.

 

Changes to pivot also hurt them quite a bit. 

 

Their points arent bad, but are terrible compared to Aquilons who probably do a little less damage but are way better at mobility and controlling objectives. 

Edited November 19 by DemonGSides

[Tawnis]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Shooting army is just gonna evaporate them though. They almost HAVE to be walk on units because they are just so dang squishy.

 

Changes to pivot also hurt them quite a bit. 

 

Their points arent bad, but are terrible compared to Aquilons who probably do a little less damage but are way better at mobility and controlling objectives. 

Possibly. Terrain's pretty dense and your threat range far. There are plenty of places you could hide the unit, it's not like you have to start with them really close to your target to get them. I don't think walking them on is a great call though, you're putting yourself 9" away from your target and usually in a more exposed position than if you'd set them up in the first place. You could Rapid Ingress one unit I suppose. 

Hmm, that's a good point, my cavalry are on round bases so I don't have to deal with pivot except for the Lone Spears which hang back anyway and rarely need their full move. 

Ehh kinda. Aquillions have some overlap, but not all. Aquillons are better move blockers and threats to backfield objectives with their 3" drop. They are both good at clearing chaff. The Atillians are far better at punching up into larger units. You're not going to down a War Dog with Aquillions, put 10 Atillians into it and it'll evaporate. 

Edited November 19 by Tawnis

[Emperor Ming]

Stupid pivot rules

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Tawnis said:

Possibly. Terrain's pretty dense and your threat range far. There are plenty of places you could hide the unit, it's not like you have to start with them really close to your target to get them. I don't think walking them on is a great call though, you're putting yourself 9" away from your target and usually in a more exposed position than if you'd set them up in the first place. You could Rapid Ingress one unit I suppose. 

Hmm, that's a good point, my cavalry are on round bases so I don't have to deal with pivot except for the Lone Spears which hang back anyway and rarely need their full move. 

Ehh kinda. Aquillions have some overlap, but not all. Aquillons are better move blockers and threats to backfield objectives with their 3" drop. They are both good at clearing chaff. The Atillians are far better at punching up into larger units. You're not going to down a War Dog with Aquillions, put 10 Atillians into it and it'll evaporate. 

 

Terrain + pivot kills their threat range, I don't think it's as good as it may seem.

 

All Atillans are on oval bases; if youve got old models, to be fair, you should still be playing with the consistent current rules.  That means either rebasing or treating the bases as ovals. Otherwise, kinda feels like modelling for advantage and its just as easy to play correct.

 

I'm probably not sending either unit at a wardog, we've got lots of lascannons and anti vehicle stuff throughout the rest of our army, so I don't really think of Atillans that way. They are chaff clear and movement blocking champions with how big they are. Like all IG, they do piddly damage and die for the emperor to contest objectives and board space while actual damage dealers lay down destruction from a distance.

 

Basically if my only choice is to use the Atillans to kill a war dog, we've probably already lost this battle. 

 

 

[Tawnis]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Terrain + pivot kills their threat range, I don't think it's as good as it may seem.

 

All Atillans are on oval bases; if youve got old models, to be fair, you should still be playing with the consistent current rules.  That means either rebasing or treating the bases as ovals. Otherwise, kinda feels like modelling for advantage and its just as easy to play correct.

 

I'm probably not sending either unit at a wardog, we've got lots of lascannons and anti vehicle stuff throughout the rest of our army, so I don't really think of Atillans that way. They are chaff clear and movement blocking champions with how big they are. Like all IG, they do piddly damage and die for the emperor to contest objectives and board space while actual damage dealers lay down destruction from a distance.

 

Basically if my only choice is to use the Atillans to kill a war dog, we've probably already lost this battle. 

 

 

I meant my Krootox and Rampagers are on round bases, and that is the correct ones for those models, so I'm not used to pivoting being a problem. Something I'd have to practice with and get more of a feel for to see if it impacts my playstyle.  

It's about flexibility in a list to be able to handle multiple types of threats, yeah, there are plenty of other tools to fight tanks in Guard, but if your up against War Dog Spam, you want everything to be able to punch up, if you're up against Hordes, you want blast or volume. There are plenty of tanks that can do either better, but are there any near 120 points that can do both well? It's not that they are the best anti-tank, it's that they are a viable threat to pretty much anything. And when hitting into anything T13-17 like big Knights (yeah I know they're not meta right now), they are better than Lascannons since they'll still wound on 4's (and hit on 2's with Fix Bayonets).  

[Tawnis]

Follow up question: Is pivoting a modification to their move characteristic? Because if so, Atillans ignore that. 

Edit: Okay looking more into pivots, it effects the distance traveled so I don't think Atillans ignore it. Even so, it's only a 1" move penalty since they are not monstrous or vehicle, and to only applies once per movement, no matter how many times you pivot. Even assuming that you have to pivot on every move (which you probably will) you're down to an 11" move and 14" with an order. That's still a very long threat range. 

 

Edited November 19 by Tawnis

[DemonGSides]

17 hours ago, Tawnis said:

I meant my Krootox and Rampagers are on round bases, and that is the correct ones for those models, so I'm not used to pivoting being a problem. Something I'd have to practice with and get more of a feel for to see if it impacts my playstyle.  

It's about flexibility in a list to be able to handle multiple types of threats, yeah, there are plenty of other tools to fight tanks in Guard, but if your up against War Dog Spam, you want everything to be able to punch up, if you're up against Hordes, you want blast or volume. There are plenty of tanks that can do either better, but are there any near 120 points that can do both well? It's not that they are the best anti-tank, it's that they are a viable threat to pretty much anything. And when hitting into anything T13-17 like big Knights (yeah I know they're not meta right now), they are better than Lascannons since they'll still wound on 4's (and hit on 2's with Fix Bayonets).  

 

Sorry my b on the bases thing, got wires crossed in the convo.

 

I'm not sure what pivot rules you're referencing; every move action they make they sacrifice 2" if the bases change orientation.  Their ability wouldn't affect it at all.

 

So they go down to 10", and then if you need to pivot on the charge too (likely), then you lose 2" there as well. 

 

It's not a unit killer, I still like them, but I don't think they're a tool I'm looking at to use as damage any way you cut it. The unit gets slaughtered before it ever makes contact and they can't advance and charge like something like a Thunder wolf so even as cavalry they are kinda meh as far as threat range is concerned. They probably do have the farthest melee threat range for our faction, but they are very meh in melee compared to our other option (Ogryns).  I never expect this unit to survive more than a turn, maybe 2 if you take a full 10 man. I think dedicating 30 of them is definitely A plan, but maybe not the best plan. 

 

Maybe in the codex they can get a little glow up; ideally with a leader that can give them a better save or make them truly devastating in combat.  Hell, switching their ability to be advanced and charge instead of fall back and charge would be enough to get me to go grab another ten. That'd be truly great threat range. 

Edited November 20 by DemonGSides

[Tawnis]

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Sorry my b on the bases thing, got wires crossed in the convo.

 

I'm not sure what pivot rules you're referencing; every move action they make they sacrifice 2" if the bases change orientation.  Their ability wouldn't affect it at all.

 

So they go down to 10", and then if you need to pivot on the charge too (likely), then you lose 2" there as well. 

 

It's not a unit killer, I still like them, but I don't think they're a tool I'm looking at to use as damage any way you cut it. The unit gets slaughtered before it ever makes contact and they can't advance and charge like something like a Thunder wolf so even as cavalry they are kinda meh as far as threat range is concerned. They probably do have the farthest melee threat range for our faction, but they are very meh in melee compared to our other option (Ogryns).  I never expect this unit to survive more than a turn, maybe 2 if you take a full 10 man. I think dedicating 30 of them is definitely A plan, but maybe not the best plan. 

 

Maybe in the codex they can get a little glow up; ideally with a leader that can give them a better save or make them truly devastating in combat.  Hell, switching their ability to be advanced and charge instead of fall back and charge would be enough to get me to go grab another ten. That'd be truly great threat range. 

Pivot Value
Unless otherwise stated, the following pivot values apply.
 

MODEL TYPE PIVOT VALUE Models that are not on a round base (excluding MONSTER and VEHICLE models). 1" MONSTER and VEHICLE models that are not on a round base. 2" VEHICLE models on a round base that is wider than 32mm with a flying stem or hover stand. 2"

I almost never have an issue connecting with my Rampagers and (while they do have a 7" scout move) their move is only 7" and they don't get advance / charge either. If you can protect the Atillians turn 1 behind some terrain, especially with the amount of 2" obscuring terrain that cavalry can move through that is kicking around right now, you've got a lot of places to hide that still give you a good threat range. 

I do quite like Ogryns too, and they seem pretty strong as well, even though I don't see many of them running around either. Let's do some math hammer then. For the sake of comparison, we'll say that both squads can fully shoot and charge their target, even though it's easier for the Atillians to manage this and Ogryns would likely need the aid of a Transport, taking up a lot more points. We'll also leave orders out of this for simplicities sake. I'll also assume no cover for the ranged attacks to make things easier too, though this also benefits the Ogryns more. 

Against GEQ: (T3, 5+SV 1W)

Atillains: 3-4 kills in shooting, 21-22 kills in fight. (And that's only at +2 on Blast)
Ogryns: 12 kills in shooting, 11 kills in fight. 

Against MEQ: (T4, 3+SV 2W)
Atillians: 1-2 damage in shooting, 5-6 kills in melee, plus 1-2 more damage from the hooves.
Ogryns: 6 kills in shooting, 5-6 damage in melee.

Against TEQ: (T5, 2+/4++ SV 3W)
Atillians: 0-1 damage in shooting, 3 kills in melee, plus 0-1 more damage from the hooves. 
Ogryns: 2 kills, possible 2 extra damage in shooting, 3-4 damage in melee.  

Against Light Vehicles / Similar: (T: 7 3+Sv 7W)
Atillians: 0-1 damage in shooting, 18 damage in melee. 
Ogryns: 8 damage in shooting, 2-3 damage in melee.

Against War Dog Equivalent (T10, 3+/5++ 12W)
Atillians: 15-16 damage in melee. 

Ogryns: 4 damage in shooting, 2-3 damage in melee. 

Against Heavy Vehicles: (T13, 2+/5++ 24W)
Atillians: 10-12 damage in melee. 
Ogryns: 2-4 damage in shooting, 1 damage in melee. 

Going over all that, they both clearly obliterate light infantry and have the potential to take out 2 10mans in one round as well as a 20 blob. Ogryns have a slight edge against Marines, but it's minor, an extra wound or two. Ogryns step ahead the most against Terminators, taking out a full model more than the Atillians. However, Atillians pull ahead against any large threat. Both can kill a lone Sentenil, but against any group of light Vehicles, Orgyns will get bogged down, while Atillians have the punch to push through. Ogryns can do some decent damage into a War Dog, taking out about half its wounds, but the Atillians can consistently kill one on the charge. Lastly, Ogryns do virtually nothing against massive armoured targets, where Atillians can still take down about half it's wounds in one go. Even with every advantage given to the Ogryns, the Atillians still either come close, or do noticeably better. 

Attilians make a viable threat against any target in the game. I'd ideally keep them away from Terminators or blobs of powerful melee marines, but they can go in if they have to to finish them off if they are shot up, and beyond that, they can take down almost anything. For their low points cost, and large threat range, they seem like a fantastic trading piece. In all these situations, they are nearly making their points back, or more against vehicles, on a single attack. 

With the new Krieg rumors, I'm really hoping that Guard get a good detachment for cavalry, seems like a no brainer. Fingers crossed. 

Edited November 20 by Tawnis

[DemonGSides]

Ahh, okay. I mostly play Pariah missions right now, where it's always 2".  Definitely impacts a little but not majorly.  I just don't think their threat range is all that terrifying compared to other factions threat ranges, and as such, starting them on the battlefield is usually a bad idea.

 

If I was comparing melee I'd compare them to bullgryns, since that's the more appropriate comparison for melee jobbers.  That the Atillans have basically 0 shooting is also a bummer.

 

And both variety of Ogryns are/were showing up more than Atillans, not sure where you're looking for competitive minded lists.  That being said, neither version of Ogryns nor the Atillans are high up right now; it's all tank commanders, tanks and Aquilons, as mentioned earlier. Meta is gonna meta. 

 

I also don't expect to ever have a full unit of Atillans. Hypothetical math is always nice, but it more often doesn't survive on the battlefield.  And I think that's something missing from all the calculations, in that a t4 unit is getting evaporated in most games I've been part of. They just don't survive.  So if the enemy denies an early charge in any way, they go poof whereas other melee threats we have will have quite a bit more survivability. 

 

I think there's more at play than just raw numbers, basically. And as much as I like Atillans, they have been mostly ok (for me) since they got their points reductions and therefore usability. They aren't actively bad, and in the hyper specific use case of attacking an armiger that has never gotten a chance to shoot, yes they look good. I just don't think that situation is all that regular or feasible. 

 

If we still had infinite reinforcements, I think they're my favorite unit; turn after turn of suicide horsies is awesome. But until we get that back, I would rather bring tanks.  They are tougher, have the same threat range, and do more damage.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

But speaking back to the original premise, of 30x Atillans, it would be an awesome looking battle if nothing else!  I just think there's a lot of shooting that just obliterates t4. 

[Tawnis]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

But speaking back to the original premise, of 30x Atillans, it would be an awesome looking battle if nothing else!  I just think there's a lot of shooting that just obliterates t4. 

I mean, you're half right, but that's the reason I did a single turn of attacks rather than an estimation of the damage over the course of the game. 

Yes, if they get shot, they'll take a lot of damage. But if you put them behind some 2" obscuring terrain which they can move through, and there is a lot of that in Pariah Nexus, what's shooting them? Some armies have some indirect firepower, but certainly not all of them. After they crash into something and kill it, yeah most will die on the attack back, but they've already made their points back for the game, and you'll likely be left with a few that can still fight or to objectives. They seem like the perfect trading piece to me. 

Since the nerf to Bullgryns, 3 of them cost nearly the same as 10 Attilians, and at those numbers, damage output is nowhere close. Attilians are way ahead. 

As for pivot, I thought that was the current updated Pariah version. Where should I be looking instead? 

Edited November 20 by Tawnis

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Tawnis said:

I mean, you're half right, but that's the reason I did a single turn of attacks rather than an estimation of the damage over the course of the game. 

Yes, if they get shot, they'll take a lot of damage. But if you put them behind some 2" obscuring terrain which they can move through, and there is a lot of that in Pariah Nexus, what's shooting them? Some armies have some indirect firepower, but certainly not all of them. After they crash into something and kill it, yeah most will die on the attack back, but they've already made their points back for the game, and you'll likely be left with a few that can still fight or to objectives. They seem like the perfect trading piece to me. 

Since the nerf to Bullgryns, 3 of them cost nearly the same as 10 Attilians, and at those numbers, damage output is nowhere close. Attilians are way ahead. 

As for pivot, I thought that was the current updated Pariah version. Where should I be looking instead? 

 

Let me clarify then about being half right; I think there's plenty of armies that can remove 30 T4 bodies in a single round, or at least 15 T4 bodies in a single round, including the first round, JUST in their shooting phase.  Layer on the fact that plenty of armies can do that while also remaining out of your threat range, or actively WANTING these guys to get into threat range, means I'm hesitant to bother.

 

2" terrain won't stop them from getting shot, which is kind of the problem, right?  2" terrain barely covers a space marine (In fact does not cover a great deal of space marines) and these guys are taller than space marines.  Any terrain that you're using that's 2" tall only gives them cover.

You're never going to move them into a ruin, as they aren't infantry and therefore have a hard time leaving said ruin.  You're hoping for good angles and staying outside of the ruin footprint so nothing can see into the ruin to shoot them.  They're a big unit meaning that they're gonna take up a lot of space (By virtue of the oval bases), and scatter terrain (AKA Barricades and Fuel Pipes or Craters and Rubble or Battlefield Debris and Statuary) only confer Benefit of Cover, which in the unit's case is not much of a bonus at all, as neither their toughness nor armor save is really going to have anyone going "I need to dedicate Heavy Weapons" to these guys, half blessing half curse; they aren't going to catch any melta level weaponry that will delete models at a time, but they can have incidental guns on a lot of vehicle platforms target them and just chew through them with little recourse, considering they also can't take "Go to ground".

 

I don't think the damage output of practical Atillans vs Theoretical Atillans is worth the loss of toughness that a commensurate unit of bullgryns brings, personally.

When you then consider that any opponent who sees you set up 30 Horsemen is gonna be like "Well that feels like they did that for a reason" meaning they're going to play around that also sort of lowers their value on a meta level, especially with the terrain that current boards utilize.

 

Pivot rules I have been using was the tournament pack thing they released when Pariah tournament pack came out.  If it's updated since then that's on me.

Edited November 20 by DemonGSides

[Tawnis]

What I mean is this, let's take Pariah Nexus terrain layout 2 for example. 

 

Each of those blue locations are 2" high terrain. They block line of sight if you are behind them, but can still be moved through by Cavalry. And in the other terrain pieces, so long as they move around the physicals terrain objects, they're fine. You have to be a little careful with your positioning, but there are several places on this board (and the others) where you could safely place them that gives them a very wide threat range. 

Yes, pivot rules have been updated since then. 

It does partially come down to playstyle too I suppose, I personally favour more aggressive pressure armies which is very well suited to the Attilians, I know now everyone's going to play like that. Even so, I just see so many uses for them it's hard to wrap my brain around. Maybe once I've gotten some and tried them out, I'll see something that I don't now. In theory though, they seem very strong for the points you're paying for them. 

 

And in terms of durability, they're not that far off from Marines, they're T:4, 4+Sv W:2. That's pretty close and you're paying 120 points for 10 bodies. Most SM units are paying what, 160ish, for 10 bodies, and Attilians have a much higher damage output than marine units in that points range. Plus the ability to revive a squad if needed. 

While I concede that I could be overestimating their durability, I went into this assuming that they'd all die after their first charge anyway. As someone who plays with a lot of cavalry already and who has very little issue moving them around the board and connecting with what they need to, despite their large base size, I think you are underestimating their mobility. 

[Emperor Ming]

I have never seen any event use the gw terrain layout

 

Its generally all ruins

 

Which heavily favours knights/inf

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Tawnis said:

What I mean is this, let's take Pariah Nexus terrain layout 2 for example. 

 

Each of those blue locations are 2" high terrain. They block line of sight if you are behind them, but can still be moved through by Cavalry. And in the other terrain pieces, so long as they move around the physicals terrain objects, they're fine. You have to be a little careful with your positioning, but there are several places on this board (and the others) where you could safely place them that gives them a very wide threat range. 

Yes, pivot rules have been updated since then. 

It does partially come down to playstyle too I suppose, I personally favour more aggressive pressure armies which is very well suited to the Attilians, I know now everyone's going to play like that. Even so, I just see so many uses for them it's hard to wrap my brain around. Maybe once I've gotten some and tried them out, I'll see something that I don't now. In theory though, they seem very strong for the points you're paying for them. 

 

And in terms of durability, they're not that far off from Marines, they're T:4, 4+Sv W:2. That's pretty close and you're paying 120 points for 10 bodies. Most SM units are paying what, 160ish, for 10 bodies, and Attilians have a much higher damage output than marine units in that points range. Plus the ability to revive a squad if needed. 

While I concede that I could be overestimating their durability, I went into this assuming that they'd all die after their first charge anyway. As someone who plays with a lot of cavalry already and who has very little issue moving them around the board and connecting with what they need to, despite their large base size, I think you are underestimating their mobility. 

 

I don't know, those blue areas are 4 inches long in some instances, so half of your movement if you're not inside them, and if you're inside them, you're shootable.

They move fast, I'm not denying that, and as someone who's used them, I don't think they're bad!  I just think you've got high expectations with them.  Other things of a similar vein in other armies move faster, and they aren't durable; I don't think marines are particularly durable for the game right now so I wouldn't consider that a favorable comparison especially since marines generally start at 3+ save.  With Atillans you're starting at a coin flip, and hoping for no AP; that's not my definition of durable by any measure.

 

They're cheap, for certain, and I like bringing them as they are in that sweet spot of "Shoot this instead of something else or else they'll be annoying."  I wouldn't ever consider them my main damage dealers in any situation; they are at best a lucky side punch.  Back when they could be recycled infinitely it was a much more enticing prospect like I mentioned; I had one game where one squad came back 3 times.  Bananas value.

Once a leader comes out that can stick with them, getting them down to a consistent 2+ to hit and then a really consistent 3+ to wound then hopefully some sort of bonus keyword or a reroll somewhere, THAT'S a spicy meatball.  But we're not quite there yet, and who knows if the DKOK horseman will be able to lead them.  Hopefully!

[Tawnis]

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

I have never seen any event use the gw terrain layout

 

Its generally all ruins

 

Which heavily favours knights/inf

Maybe it's a location thing? The ones around here use them, I guess I just assumed that was normal. 

Edited November 21 by Tawnis

[tychobi]

This sounds like a fun idea. No need to pivot you can move 360. Pivot is free on a pile in too. 14 " threat is big, you will catch many enemies off guard. While fragile I think you can trade nicely and punch up a lot with attillans. Put some big threat tanks grinding up behind for a sprawling pressure that will give some folks fits. A pile of damage 2 might be a tough day but Yee haw every one has their counter.  I say go for it!

[Focslain]

10 hours ago, Tawnis said:

Maybe it's a location thing? The ones around here use them, I guess I just assumed that was normal. 

It is, the last tournament I did used the GW layout AND GT rules, which meant no seeing out of 1st floor. Indirect and melee was the order of the day. 

 

Frakked me over hard.

[DemonGSides]

I'm used to playing with first floor completely obscured in and out, but not used to seeing lots of 2" high ruins.  Lots of ruins, for sure, but mostly battlefield debris and barricades otherwise, which for sure can be easily moved over but otherwise don't provide much LOS stoppage. 

[Tawnis]

1 hour ago, Focslain said:

It is, the last tournament I did used the GW layout AND GT rules, which meant no seeing out of 1st floor. Indirect and melee was the order of the day. 

 

Frakked me over hard.

That was my last tournament as well. Though I didn't see too much indirect spam myself. A basilisk and mortar team from one guard player and the Havoc Launchers from the War Dog player. 

55 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I'm used to playing with first floor completely obscured in and out, but not used to seeing lots of 2" high ruins.  Lots of ruins, for sure, but mostly battlefield debris and barricades otherwise, which for sure can be easily moved over but otherwise don't provide much LOS stoppage. 

I guess the end result is "Your Mileage May Vary" depending on your local meta and tournament layouts. 

[DemonGSides]

Indirect getting curb stomped over the past two years because of the wails and Lamentations of the non IG got us nerfed.