Can I get by with just Codex Supplement: Dark Angels?

[ThralKhan]

I’m looking to get into DA (fmr SW player) and am pretty tired of GWs business model of making people purchase more than one codex for a single army. 
 

i’m considering moving to DA using the Lion, Inner Circle companions, Deathwing Knights, DW Terminators, and Ezekiel. Can I get away with just ysing the DA Codex Supplement?  
 

thanks!

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, ThralKhan said:

I’m looking to get into DA (fmr SW player) and am pretty tired of GWs business model of making people purchase more than one codex for a single army. 
 

i’m considering moving to DA using the Lion, Inner Circle companions, Deathwing Knights, DW Terminators, and Ezekiel. Can I get away with just ysing the DA Codex Supplement?  
 

thanks!

 

The Dark Angels Supplement does expect you to also be using the Loyalist Space Marine Codex, since it's only an addition to that Codex.

Dark Angels do have a lot of units they can use, but without access to the LSM Codex, you're missing a lot of the foundational building blocks of a Marine army.

[HeadlessCross]

21 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The Dark Angels Supplement does expect you to also be using the Loyalist Space Marine Codex, since it's only an addition to that Codex.

Dark Angels do have a lot of units they can use, but without access to the LSM Codex, you're missing a lot of the foundational building blocks of a Marine army.

If they're not looking to build an actual Marine army, let alone a competitive one, they don't actually need the codex though. 

 

It's a predatory business model though so just find the rules online for whatever extra units you want. 

[Indy Techwisp]

35 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

If they're not looking to build an actual Marine army, let alone a competitive one, they don't actually need the codex though. 

It's a predatory business model though so just find the rules online for whatever extra units you want. 

 

If you're OK with sourcing the rules via alternative means, then yeah, you should be fine with just the DA supplement.

With the current mission pack, Battleline units got a lot more important, hence me emphasising them.

[ThralKhan]

Awesome thanks.  I’ve been playing since 1999. (3rd ed) so I’ve seen this game change quite a bit.  My first army was 40k Space Wolves and it wasn’t bad back then when the supplement was on $19.  Now, the sups are as expensive as the main codex so I’ve been thinning the herd to single codex armies.  It almost seems blasphemous for me to say, but I like the DA better the wolves now, especially since I started getting interested in 30k Heresy and saw how B.A. Dark Angels are.  
 

So, I don’t really care about how competitive thd list is or isn’t.  I play for fun and to hang out and always like having options if I don’t feel like playing WE or Votann. 
 

and then there’s Kill Team…

[crimsondave]

I think it would be hard without both of them honestly.  Unless you plan on playing all Deathwing.  I'd just keep an eye on ebay for a cheaper copy.

[Tacitus]

On 11/22/2024 at 2:31 PM, HeadlessCross said:

If they're not looking to build an actual Marine army, let alone a competitive one, they don't actually need the codex though. 

 

It's a predatory business model though so just find the rules online for whatever extra units you want. 

You're missing the Faction Wide stuff:

Captains, Lieutenants, assorted other generic HQ's

Loyalist Dets - especially Gladiator and/or any that dovetail with your specialists (First Company Task Force, Stormlance

Oath of Moment

 

[ValourousHeart]

On 11/22/2024 at 4:31 PM, HeadlessCross said:

If they're not looking to build an actual Marine army, let alone a competitive one, they don't actually need the codex though. 

 

It's a predatory business model though so just find the rules online for whatever extra units you want. 

 

I'm struggling to see how GW is a predatory business, but I'm willing to have my mind changed.

According to google examples of unfair or predatory trade practices include:

1. Deceptive advertising
2. Deceptive guarantees
3. Bait and Switch
4. False free prizes
5. Tied selling
6. Noncompliance with manufacturing standards
7. Targeting vulnerable populations

I don't believe that 1,2,3,4,6,&7 apply to GW.  Feel free to correct me on your experience concerning those.

 

That leaves number 5, Tied Selling.  "the sale of one product ties to the sale of another."  Tied sales as I understand it is like a printer with a proprietary ink cartridge.  The printer won't work unless you buy the ink from the company selling the printer.

 

But there are other examples of products that move together that are mistakenly identified as tied sales.

 

For example a DIY store will sell paint, brushes, drop cloth, ladders and painter's tape, and a shopper is likely to buy a lot of those things for a single project.  That is not predatory, those items are just all needed for that particular project.  I'm not sure how changing the items in the example to Codex Dark Angels, Outriders and a Chaplain on Bike would make it predatory.

 

And yes I know your example was the codex, and I'm getting there now.  Is it predatory that you have to purchase the players guide for D&D separate from the core rule book?  Just because one company gives their rules away for free doesn't mean that a  second company selling their rule books is engaging in unfair trade practices.

 

So is this just hyperbolic rhetoric throwing shade at GW?  Or is there something I've overlooked?

[Tacitus]

On 12/16/2024 at 7:52 PM, ValourousHeart said:

So is this just hyperbolic rhetoric throwing shade at GW?  Or is there something I've overlooked?

I'd guess some of both.  It is probably a little hyperbolic, and you're probably underselling how bad their business practices are. 

 

"Inside this box is everything you need to play a game." 

 

That nobody else wants to play.  How many people hang around the stores looking for a starter set Combat Patrol Game? 

 

That you'll then need to buy more units, and more books to get into a game other people will want to play.

[ValourousHeart]

On 12/20/2024 at 12:32 AM, Tacitus said:

I'd guess some of both.  It is probably a little hyperbolic, and you're probably underselling how bad their business practices are. 

 

I might be doing that.  I often suffer from depression, and to combat that I actively look for positive attributes.  There is plenty of research showing that the human mind is really good at imagining all of the most dire outcomes, but struggles to imagine success.  Are you down playing everything positive about 40k and only focused on the short comings?

 

On 12/20/2024 at 12:32 AM, Tacitus said:

"Inside this box is everything you need to play a game." 

 

That is an accurate statement.  However that box set doesn't contain everything I want to play a game.  I bought the starter set in 2nd edition because I didn't yet know what armies I wanted to play.  I haven't bought a starter set since, because I focused my money on units I wanted.  Even though I play marines, there is almost never anything I want in the starter sets.  I'm not the target audience for that box set, and it sounds like you might not be either.  That doesn't mean that no one could play a game with that starter set.  Or even that the starter set isn't a good deal.  Don't get those things confused.

 

On 12/20/2024 at 12:32 AM, Tacitus said:

That nobody else wants to play.  How many people hang around the stores looking for a starter set Combat Patrol Game? 

 

Believe it or not, learning how to play combat patrol will make you good at Warhammer 40k.  And the combat patrols have a relatively low bar for entry.  There are no gotchas or cheap tricks or broken combos to exploit.  Often some of the veteran players forget that list building is only a small part of the game.  Combat Patrol helps you learn all the rest of the game.

 

On 12/20/2024 at 12:32 AM, Tacitus said:

That you'll then need to buy more units, and more books to get into a game other people will want to play.

 

When I got into 40k there was a big problem with WFB in that the barrier to entry was really high.  Certain characters required you to have a minimum 3000 points just to field them.  And most armies had a couple of great top tier characters meaning you needed 6000 points to have more than one cool character.  That was a lot of cheddar to lay down, even way back then.

 

What I'm hearing you say is that you like an exclusive game where you can tell new players to piss off if they don't have lots of money.  Maybe you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, but most of us had to build our collections slowly over decades.  It didn't take decades to get to 2000 points, and I'm well past that level now with multiple armies.  But my first games all those years ago were small with the models I had.  Try taking the chip off your shoulder and let new players enter this hobby at their own pace, like you did. 

 

Try meeting them where they are with a combat patrol game.  I bet your collection is a lot like mine, and you have everything or almost everything you need for several combat patrols without needing to pick up a new combat patrol.  Perhaps you only need to pick up one unit to complete a combat patrol.

 

For me I'm missing Votann Beserks.  Because they are the one unit out of the Votann collection that I don't like.  Or for my sisters of battle it is the Sacresants... and well when I have the cash they are out of stock.

 

Sure there are benefits to playing larger games of 40k.  But that doesn't mean that there aren't also benefits to playing combat patrol.

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, ValourousHeart said:

 

That is an accurate statement.  However that box set doesn't contain everything I want to play a game.  I bought the starter set in 2nd edition because I didn't yet know what armies I wanted to play.  I haven't bought a starter set since, because I focused my money on units I wanted.  Even though I play marines, there is almost never anything I want in the starter sets.  I'm not the target audience for that box set, and it sounds like you might not be either.  That doesn't mean that no one could play a game with that starter set.  Or even that the starter set isn't a good deal.  Don't get those things confused.

 

 

Believe it or not, learning how to play combat patrol will make you good at Warhammer 40k.  And the combat patrols have a relatively low bar for entry.  There are no gotchas or cheap tricks or broken combos to exploit.  Often some of the veteran players forget that list building is only a small part of the game.  Combat Patrol helps you learn all the rest of the game.

playing combat patrol.

No, its not an accurate statement.  The box does not include an opponent.  It contains a Combat Patrol, and its much harder to get a Combat Patrol game than a regular one.  You're even proving my point.  You're referring to Combat Patrols as a gateway/low bar for entry.  They have different rules, different datasheets.

 

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What I'm hearing you say is that you like an exclusive game where you can tell new players to piss off if they don't have lots of money. 

No, that's the pejorative attempt to smear me you're making up to defend your view from disagreement.  I made no value judgments on Combat Patrol - other than getting a pickup game with a stranger in a FLGS is going to be much more difficult.   I'm not sure how you were able to twist yourself into "Telling people the starter set isn't really everything you need for the (average) game" is hating on new people who don't have lots of money, but whatever lies and you have to tell yourself.   I mean I can see where you started off using WHFB to set the scene for making up some sort of anti-combat patrol sentiment on some made up tangent regarding whether Combat Patrol will make people good at Warhammer 40K and it continued from there, but there's still no rational foundation for making up all of that from a simple "Its harder to find a random Combat Patrol Opponent". 

 

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I bet your collection is a lot like mine, and you have everything or almost everything you need for several combat patrols

Not really, I don't have that many Terminator Captains or Terminator Librarians.

 

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Sure there are benefits to playing larger games of 40k.  But that doesn't mean that there aren't also benefits to playing combat patrol.

And again here where you make up a new reality to defend your beliefs.  I didn't say anything about the benefits or lack-there-of for Combat Patrol.  All I mentioned was the frequency.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Tacitus

[ValourousHeart]

18 hours ago, Tacitus said:

It contains a Combat Patrol, and its much harder to get a Combat Patrol game than a regular one.  You're even proving my point.  You're referring to Combat Patrols as a gateway/low bar for entry.  They have different rules, different datasheets.

 

It isn't harder to get a combat patrol game than a regular game.  I'm going to assume you have access to a FLGS with other people that play 40k.

 

You ask one of them if they would like to play 40k.  They say yes.  Then you say, "I'm new, and all I have is a combat patrol."  The other more veteran player says "that's fine, I've got enough models to make a combat patrol.  How are you enjoying the hobby so far?"

 

Some datasheets have different rules.  But all combat patrol datasheets are free.  You don't need a codex, all of the rules for the combat patrol are included in the PDF.  All you need is the BRB, the combat patrol models, and the free PDF from the community page.  So yes as an entry point $65 for the BRB and $168 for the combat patrol of your choice is a lower cost than anything you might identify as a "proper" 40k army.

 

18 hours ago, Tacitus said:

No, that's the pejorative attempt to smear me you're making up to defend your view from disagreement.  I made no value judgments on Combat Patrol - other than getting a pickup game with a stranger in a FLGS is going to be much more difficult.   I'm not sure how you were able to twist yourself into "Telling people the starter set isn't really everything you need for the (average) game" is hating on new people who don't have lots of money, but whatever lies and you have to tell yourself.   I mean I can see where you started off using WHFB to set the scene for making up some sort of anti-combat patrol sentiment on some made up tangent regarding whether Combat Patrol will make people good at Warhammer 40K and it continued from there, but there's still no rational foundation for making up all of that from a simple "Its harder to find a random Combat Patrol Opponent". 

 

And you don't see your contempt and disapproval of combat patrol is also pejorative?  Like I said it isn't harder to get a combat patrol game... you just have to be willing to say yes.  So would you say yes if asked?

 

19 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Not really, I don't have that many Terminator Captains or Terminator Librarians.

 

I wasn't saying that you had enough models in your collection to make multiple copies of the same combat patrol.

 

From my collection, without buying anything new, I can field 1) strike team Solarien (phobos), 2) Thoryk's Void Hunters (SW), and 3) The Penitent Host (SOB).  And with minimal purchases I could field a few more combat patrols. Specifically, the other SOB, Votann, and the rest of the marine combat patrols.

 

19 hours ago, Tacitus said:

No, its not an accurate statement.  The box does not include an opponent.

 

Of course the box doesn't include an opponent.  That hasn't been legal in the UK since 1834.

[Tacitus]

18 minutes ago, ValourousHeart said:

 

It isn't harder to get a combat patrol game than a regular game.  I'm going to assume you have access to a FLGS with other people that play 40k.

 

You ask one of them if they would like to play 40k.  They say yes.  Then you say, "I'm new, and all I have is a combat patrol."  The other more veteran player says "that's fine, I've got enough models to make a combat patrol.  How are you enjoying the hobby so far?"

 

Some datasheets have different rules.  But all combat patrol datasheets are free.  You don't need a codex, all of the rules for the combat patrol are included in the PDF.  All you need is the BRB, the combat patrol models, and the free PDF from the community page.  So yes as an entry point $65 for the BRB and $168 for the combat patrol of your choice is a lower cost than anything you might identify as a "proper" 40k army.

Yeah.  Sure.  They don't say "I'm going to wait for a bigger game".  Ever.  Sure.  Here's the link to a Dallas area Warhammer Store events planner -  Which of those events are for Combat Patrols?

 

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And you don't see your contempt and disapproval of combat patrol is also pejorative?  Like I said it isn't harder to get a combat patrol game... you just have to be willing to say yes.  So would you say yes if asked?

If you asked?  Not a chance.  I'd rather drop an entire bottle of superglue in my lap than play you.  Even if you weren't the douche telling me I hate people who want Combat Patrol, you're the liar saying I hate combat patrol.  And that its easier to find a Combat Patrol game because people looking for a big game can always make a combat patrol (Even though they're fixed lists now you have to match) and people with enough models for a big game or a combat patrol have "two chances" to get a game while the Combat Patrol player only has... one. 

 

Ignoring the Multi-channel aspect of the events (basically ignore anything that's Sigmar, Old Worlds, etc)  How many of those events can you participate in wtih the starter set?  You can paint up one moster (or a vehicle with a fraction of the other combat patrols, TWO if you go with Drukhari, 5 if you do the Imperial Knight Battle Force - which is not a combat Patrol) for the Tank Hunters/Monster Mash etc events.  But you're not doing it "well".  You're not doing the Crusade.  There's only the one Combat Patrol day, June 24th.  There's a whole lot of Giant Collection days.   At the official store.  That told you a starter set was all you needed to play.   That one day a year.