Grotmas Calendar 2024 - New Detachments Edition

[Indy Techwisp]

So it's GSC next up.

Do we think this'll be the "Take X points of Tyranids" soup Detachment?

Or is this going to be the Purestrain spam Detachment.

 

Anyway...

4 hours ago, INKS said:

Then they learned nothing from the inquisition codex. Deamons is even more popular and widely played and they want to do away or wrap in their codex. I just don’t get them 

I feel it's important to remember that GW sent Deathwatch to Legends, and when we all made a fuss about that, they gave us the index back.

I fully expect that, come 11th, Deathwatch will be reworked again, tho probably more carefully and with consideration for what the playerbase actually want.

 

With that as our existing example for 10th, would it not be sensible to assume that GW would learn from that flustercluck and just... leave Index Daemons where it is once the merge happens?

Rather than sending it all to legends and kicking the whole cycle off again, they can just leave Daemons as an Index with their 5 Detachments and skip the giant Backlash for canning the entire army mid edition.

[Jscarlos18]

I can see GSC detachment be a way to use the Great Devourer keyword to soup them with Tyranids.

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

So it's GSC next up.

 

As a meta-observation, I do appreciate that the Votann detachment managed to generate enough interest for five whole posts before the "...anyway!" 

 

Maybe GW does need to give the Votann another OP ruleset just to get more fans back on the bandwagon.

[Indy Techwisp]

42 minutes ago, phandaal said:

As a meta-observation, I do appreciate that the Votann detachment managed to generate enough interest for five whole posts before the "...anyway!" 

 

Maybe GW does need to give the Votann another OP ruleset just to get more fans back on the bandwagon.

 

To be Frank about it, I was expecting a Hernkyn based Detachment and this Hearthguard one doesn't really interest me at all.

[Dr. Clock]

Yeah - no new Leagues detachment for me, but that's no big surprise given I'm only just reaching a decent 2000 point list with broad mix of stuff. I guess at a certain point if the Grotmas detachment isn't great, we hope it means the army rule is likely going to get better when we get a book? You can definitely feel it in some places that they need to leave room for big changes to the rules in the future.

 

I'll be down for another few Leagues units when they get next wave and they are fun enough to play as-is that I've made my peace with focusing largely on space elves for the next 6 months.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Ammonius]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

This will likely upset some but Daemons have nearly never been well applied rules wise, they're a bit weird as fluff wise it's not common for multi-god intrusions and they're treated as 4 armies that are forced to co-exist with overlapping roles (it's nearly all melee).

Yeah, they seem to have painted themselves in a corner going from the 1988 Slave To Darkness fluff about the gods teaming up against each other and even having daemons of one god with both armies of a second and third god fighting each other running into the reality of how daemons get shown in subsequent books and how the models have been collected and fielded by players over the years.

And that's not taking into account the difficulties of trying to sell models for a faction with infinitely variable appearances but also keep things standard enough that players can recognize one thing from another.

[Dark Shepherd]

2 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

As a meta-observation, I do appreciate that the Votann detachment managed to generate enough interest for five whole posts before the "...anyway!" 

 

Maybe GW does need to give the Votann another OP ruleset just to get more fans back on the bandwagon.

The wet dry vac trikes killed off the faction

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Hmm. Swing and a miss for the Leagues. If the index detachment didn't have the CP generation, or only had the original 1 enemy unit getting Judgement Tokens at battle start instead of the 4 it has now, the new one might have been interesting. As it is, including the Blast weapon restriction that seems designed to specifically not benefit Thunderkin, this detachment is dead in the water. I don't think its as bad as Nurgle's, but might be the second worst.

Nah, the Thousand Sons one is strictly worse since it tries to do the same exact thing as the Index one but worse in every way, and new Psychic weapons wont actually fix it. The Votaan might not be good, but it could get a new lease on life depending on how the codex shapes up. 

[DemonGSides]

It's just not interesting. It's not actively bad like it could be, it's just a boring detatchment.

[phandaal]

7 minutes ago, Dark Shepherd said:

The wet dry vac trikes killed off the faction

 

You know, they look better in person, but assembling/painting them is an utter nightmare. Just endless amounts of bits, twists, nooks, crannies... They might actually be 4-dimensional.

 

I got through 6 before giving up on the others, and currently have another 6 in my rare "built and primed, never to be painted" storage box. 

 

Any other bikes I add to my army are definitely going to be 3rd party!

[Indy Techwisp]

24 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nah, the Thousand Sons one is strictly worse since it tries to do the same exact thing as the Index one but worse in every way, and new Psychic weapons wont actually fix it.

 

The new Thousand Sons one is almost blatantly a Tzeentch Daemons Detachment, as everything in it would heavily benefit them if they had the Thousand Sons faction keyword.

 

Kinda weird they did that, huh?

[INKS]

9 hours ago, Lord_Ikka said:

Daemons don't seem to have enough of a player base in 40k for GW to really want to pursue a lot of new units. Most of the new stuff has been created for AoS and has been imported to 40k from there. Which is too bad. I'd actually look into getting daemons if a Vashtorr/Dark Mechanicum cyber-daemons line became a thing. 

This just isn’t true. There are a lot of deamon players. We just haven’t had new models in years and many players have fleshed out collections. If there were new models they would sell. They are better than say knights who also don’t see very new models.  Deamons are a mid tier played and popular army 

 

7 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

This will likely upset some but Daemons have nearly never been well applied rules wise, they're a bit weird as fluff wise it's not common for multi-god intrusions and they're treated as 4 armies that are forced to co-exist with overlapping roles (it's nearly all melee). They've almost always been included or available as allies and it makes infinitely more in-universe sense that the incursions be both mono-god and alongside their mortal followers to summon them.

 

I've lost count of the number of times threads all over the internet over the last decade(s) have complained that their daemons army lacks tools because they opt to use 1/4 of the book. Why not better support that 1/4 of the book by stopping ham-fisting its inclusion with 3 other .5's of an army, instead by placing them with thematically supportive units from the same patron.

Mono gods are applied to chaos legions often and so this is why ppl believe that. But undivided just as an example sees constant use of multi gods 

 

on top of this deamons are a tool box. Have been for many editions. Lack of shooting means very little. Plenty of armies and space marines who are primarily melee. 
 

as for ham fisting it that is gw fault for not giving actual resources to those armies and better rules. Again. Look at knights. Not much better 

 

on top of this there is nothing wrong with them being allies or part of chaos books or some other add ins. But so much flavour and tool box of the army is lost when you do this. And despite rules they do better than most armies currently and not because they are broken 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

The new Thousand Sons one is almost blatantly a Tzeentch Daemons Detachment, as everything in it would heavily benefit them if they had the Thousand Sons faction keyword.

 

Kinda weird they did that, huh?

But the Index detachment would benefit them more still, since it's all just a buff to Thousand Sons psychic weapons anyway. The Grotmas one is legit just "We do the same thing but worse".

 

Plus Tzeentch Daemon armies are gonna want to do their new one from yesterday anyway. 

[Indy Techwisp]

23 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

But the Index detachment would benefit them more still, since it's all just a buff to Thousand Sons psychic weapons anyway. The Grotmas one is legit just "We do the same thing but worse".

 

Plus Tzeentch Daemon armies are gonna want to do their new one from yesterday anyway. 

 

1st Point: It's a detachment that would benefit a mixed Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons list.

 

2nd Point: Tzeentchen Daemons using the Daemons Index will want to run the new Tzeentch detachment, which does not preclude Tzeentchen Daemons in the Thousand Sons Codex using Hexwarp Thrallband.

[HeadlessCross]

1 minute ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

1st Point: It's a detachment that would benefit a mixed Thousand Sons and Tzeentch Daemons list.

 

2nd Point: Tzeentchen Daemons using the Daemons Index will want to run the new Tzeentch detachment, which does not preclude Tzeentchen Daemons in the Thousand Sons Codex using Hexwarp Thrallband.

Okay, but how does the Index not benefit a mixed list? They both strictly list Thousand Sons Models with Psychic Weapons. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Just now, HeadlessCross said:

Okay, but how does the Index not benefit a mixed list? They both strictly list Thousand Sons Models with Psychic Weapons. 

 

It does also benefit that.
However, the Hexwarp Thrallband would benefit a Mixed Tzeentch Daemons/Thousand Sons list in a different way, thus providing another option.

[HeadlessCross]

4 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

It does also benefit that.
However, the Hexwarp Thrallband would benefit a Mixed Tzeentch Daemons/Thousand Sons list in a different way, thus providing another option.

But the different way is strictly worse LOL

The detachment rule is strictly worse, the Enhancements are worse, and the Strats are fine. 

[jaxom]

I really like today’s Votann detachment but I haven’t reviewed the LoV dataslates in a bit. Seems like it’d be a hard hitting force of Einyr and Cthonian ‘zerkers. Maybe some bikes or vehicles for heavier guns.

[Mogger351]

2 hours ago, INKS said:

This just isn’t true. There are a lot of deamon players. We just haven’t had new models in years and many players have fleshed out collections. If there were new models they would sell. They are better than say knights who also don’t see very new models.  Deamons are a mid tier played and popular army 

 

Mono gods are applied to chaos legions often and so this is why ppl believe that. But undivided just as an example sees constant use of multi gods 

 

on top of this deamons are a tool box. Have been for many editions. Lack of shooting means very little. Plenty of armies and space marines who are primarily melee. 
 

as for ham fisting it that is gw fault for not giving actual resources to those armies and better rules. Again. Look at knights. Not much better 

 

on top of this there is nothing wrong with them being allies or part of chaos books or some other add ins. But so much flavour and tool box of the army is lost when you do this. And despite rules they do better than most armies currently and not because they are broken 

I'm sorry but daemons generally don't have coherent undivided incursions, the vast majority of breaches opened on purpose are in the service of a particular God or daemon. Undivided will generally only occur under some form of deal or natural warp occurrence where the barrier is naturally thin.

 

The first few daemon codex iirc even had issues if you played the opposing gods.

 

It's not lacking shooting that's the problem, it's that if doesn't matter if you like nurgle, khorne or slaanesh, you're a melee force. That's 3 sub-armies all competing for design space in the same phase, which is inherently a problem to not create duplicates or efficiency related issues. So i aren't sure I agree on them being a toolbox any more or less than any other army is, they arguably have fewer tools unless you break theme.

 

Knights are a coherent force and theme, they're still finding their beat, but they still make sense visually and in loadout etc. Again though I'm not wanting daemons to go away, I just want them to be treated in a manner that makes them fit and make sense for the game.

[Wormwoods]

What if Demons got a bunch of possessed human units with guns? Give 'em some cultists or whatever, don't make they God specific, and let you have something other than 6 squads of Bloodletters in a mono-god army.

 

But, ultimately, it's gotta be soup. Soup is good, and more armies should get to do it. I would be all about the Eldar Soup if it wasn't locked behind a special character. Let me take Imperial Guard models in my Tau army as Gue'vesa. Let me mash up Orks and Genestealer cults as an excuse to make green Brood Brothers. Balance is for cowards. 

[Indy Techwisp]

19 minutes ago, Wormwoods said:

What if Demons got a bunch of possessed human units with guns? Give 'em some cultists or whatever, don't make they God specific, and let you have something other than 6 squads of Bloodletters in a mono-god army.

 

How about, rather than random useless chaff, the Daemons teamed up with Heretic Astartes?

 

Jokes aside, the writing's been on the wall for the Standalone Daemons Codex ever since AoS got rid of their Standalone Demon Battletome and merged the Demons into the Monogod factions.
It's just taken a while for us to have all 4 Monogod factions in the game so the split could happen.

[Wormwoods]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

How about, rather than random useless chaff, the Daemons teamed up with Heretic Astartes?

That's what I think will actually happen, just in reverse. You take demons with your astartes, not astartes with your demons. 

[INKS]

5 hours ago, Mogger351 said:

I'm sorry but daemons generally don't have coherent undivided incursions, the vast majority of breaches opened on purpose are in the service of a particular God or daemon. Undivided will generally only occur under some form of deal or natural warp occurrence where the barrier is naturally thin.

 

The first few daemon codex iirc even had issues if you played the opposing gods.

 

It's not lacking shooting that's the problem, it's that if doesn't matter if you like nurgle, khorne or slaanesh, you're a melee force. That's 3 sub-armies all competing for design space in the same phase, which is inherently a problem to not create duplicates or efficiency related issues. So i aren't sure I agree on them being a toolbox any more or less than any other army is, they arguably have fewer tools unless you break theme.

 

Knights are a coherent force and theme, they're still finding their beat, but they still make sense visually and in loadout etc. Again though I'm not wanting daemons to go away, I just want them to be treated in a manner that makes them fit and make sense for the game.

Read more on Belakor and undivided forces. Also many of the black crusades contain multi faction deamon forces. It is true in old lore and even current that some of the gods do not work well together 

 

for a tool box army. 100 percent they are 

take a look at top 4 competitive placements. True khorne does melee. So does nurgle and so on but those melee units are used for different things 

 

screamers do not play the role as hounds for example 

 

i think players are far too focused on mono gods when that is not the only theme deamons have going for them. That of course is gw fault for ignoring them for far too long and too often 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

How about, rather than random useless chaff, the Daemons teamed up with Heretic Astartes?

 

Jokes aside, the writing's been on the wall for the Standalone Daemons Codex ever since AoS got rid of their Standalone Demon Battletome and merged the Demons into the Monogod factions.
It's just taken a while for us to have all 4 Monogod factions in the game so the split could happen.

And this is actually much worse. Some ppl like mono gods and that is ok. But they shouldn’t stop you from mixing and they kinda do 

[ZeroWolf]

To be clear, you'll probably keep your index rules to allow you to play mixed demons and they may even get updated for 11th but you're probably not getting a physical release (again, if rumours are true). The AoS model is probably easier in that regard for them. On the AoS side of things all the multi-demon lord is true as well since Bel'akor is (and always has been) a major player in the fantasy setting.

[Indy Techwisp]

Relevant to this discussion.

The Daemon Detachments have been updated.

 

They're now all "Chaos Daemons" Detachments rather than specifying which God they're for in the title.