Krieg Boxset

[Mogger351]

7 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Yeah you can have up to 24 infantry squads of 20 each (6 x Cadian, 6 x Catachan, 6 x Krieg and 6 x generic infantry squad) for a total of 480 men.

 

But you can still only take 3 heavy weapon squads in support …

It'll be 6 won't it, the krieg heavy weapon teams have different options, so possibly an extra dataslate?

[TheArtilleryman]

13 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It'll be 6 won't it, the krieg heavy weapon teams have different options, so possibly an extra dataslate?

Now that would be good 

[Mandragola]

I actually love the death rider models and don't know what others are seeing in them. They're very realistic poses in my opinion. I think the contents of the box is fine as it gives you all the new stuff. It's wrong to call it an army, as it has such a limited selection of models, but I think it would be a useful addition to an army, probably complementing infantry and vehicles that people already own.

 

If there are downsides for me with the Krieg release it's that the models are so detailed for something to do a horde of. Each guy has a lot of pieces to assemble and paint, making it hard to imagine doing a hundred or so of them. The kill team box for the basic infantry is very expensive too.

 

There's also the issue of a guard army as a whole, combining these figures with Cadians, tanks, Catachans and auxiliaries like Scions and Ogryns. To me they don't look like the same model range and I'm not sure they'll work well together. Even looking at the latest two releases you have these grimdark guys trudging around, supported by Ratlings chewing on sausages.

 

It would have been awesome if they'd released a Krieg upgrade sprue for the Solar Auxilia Russes and Artillery. There's more of that sort of thing coming, with some Malcadors previewed. I think overall it might have been better if Krieg were their own codex instead of merging all these things.

[TheArtilleryman]

15 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I actually love the death rider models and don't know what others are seeing in them. They're very realistic poses in my opinion. I think the contents of the box is fine as it gives you all the new stuff. It's wrong to call it an army, as it has such a limited selection of models, but I think it would be a useful addition to an army, probably complementing infantry and vehicles that people already own.

 

If there are downsides for me with the Krieg release it's that the models are so detailed for something to do a horde of. Each guy has a lot of pieces to assemble and paint, making it hard to imagine doing a hundred or so of them. The kill team box for the basic infantry is very expensive too.

 

There's also the issue of a guard army as a whole, combining these figures with Cadians, tanks, Catachans and auxiliaries like Scions and Ogryns. To me they don't look like the same model range and I'm not sure they'll work well together. Even looking at the latest two releases you have these grimdark guys trudging around, supported by Ratlings chewing on sausages.

 

It would have been awesome if they'd released a Krieg upgrade sprue for the Solar Auxilia Russes and Artillery. There's more of that sort of thing coming, with some Malcadors previewed. I think overall it might have been better if Krieg were their own codex instead of merging all these things.

I agree with a lot of this (battleforce is an add-on, not an army, price of kill team is high, missed opportunity to use SA tanks) but I don’t mind the diversity in the codex as it reflects the immense diversity of guard in the lore. I don’t think Krieg are different enough in and of themselves to merit a whole new codex. But then I don’t think we need all the different SM codexes either - we could easily just have a big book like in HH with all the different options in it.

 

What I would find odd is a guard army that had like one Cadian squad and one Catachan and one Krieg etc. But if it had a whole platoon or two of each that would feel better and more realistic. I’m strongly considering Krieg to expand my guard. I have all the old Cadian plastics and mixing the new in with them feels weird, but adding a platoon of Krieg would feel less weird because they aren’t supposed to be the same. I’m leaning towards buying proxies though because of the price issues you mention.

[INKS]

Decided to pass on them for now. Money, not because of the models. The models are awesome. someday I'll get around to having a guard army.

what is it and wanting little toy soldiers, literally in this case?

[DemonGSides]

Article today shows us that we are losing basic Infantry squad, but we are gaining both DKOK (we knew) and Catachan (a surprise) command squads, as well as HWT for both with individualized datasheets.

 

So up to 9 heavy weapons teams per list. 

[Marshall Bretton]

Royal dorm tank commanders also listed in the article.

[DemonGSides]

3 minutes ago, Marshall Bretton said:

Royal dorm tank commanders also listed in the article.

 

And on top of that, these HWT changes are gonna modify the algebra used to winnow out what we think is coming and going with the codex. We know we are getting a bunch of new datasheets so I'm guessing we are gonna see a culling of the Catachan heroes alongside the regimental advisors and the like. 

[Mogger351]

57 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Article today shows us that we are losing basic Infantry squad, but we are gaining both DKOK (we knew) and Catachan (a surprise) command squads, as well as HWT for both with individualized datasheets.

 

So up to 9 heavy weapons teams per list. 

Dear God, they don't learn.

[TheArtilleryman]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

Article today shows us that we are losing basic Infantry squad, but we are gaining both DKOK (we knew) and Catachan (a surprise) command squads, as well as HWT for both with individualized datasheets.

 

So up to 9 heavy weapons teams per list. 

Oh really?  to them if that’s the case, because basic infantry squads with special and heavy weapons are the ENTIRE basis of my army. Unless Cadian squads have been changed to allow heavy weapon teams, this is gonna make me really angry. An absurd change because that generic unit was perfect for homebrew regiments. I do NOT understand this obsession GW have with reducing flexibility to make you buy specific kits. Don’t they realise they would sell more heavy weapon kits if they kept the infantry squad option, as people would buy both…?

 

More heavy weapon team allowance is a good thing, and if they were not specifically Catachan/Krieg I could live with the change as I’d be able to have 2 extra HWT at the expense of one less infantry squad, or whatever. But this makes no sense.

Edited Tuesday at 03:25 PM by TheArtilleryman

[Mandragola]

3 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I agree with a lot of this (battleforce is an add-on, not an army, price of kill team is high, missed opportunity to use SA tanks) but I don’t mind the diversity in the codex as it reflects the immense diversity of guard in the lore. I don’t think Krieg are different enough in and of themselves to merit a whole new codex. But then I don’t think we need all the different SM codexes either - we could easily just have a big book like in HH with all the different options in it.

 

What I would find odd is a guard army that had like one Cadian squad and one Catachan and one Krieg etc. But if it had a whole platoon or two of each that would feel better and more realistic. I’m strongly considering Krieg to expand my guard. I have all the old Cadian plastics and mixing the new in with them feels weird, but adding a platoon of Krieg would feel less weird because they aren’t supposed to be the same. I’m leaning towards buying proxies though because of the price issues you mention.

I guess I didn't get my point across that well. On one hand, I agree it's cool to have different cultures represented in a Guard army, even if really that would be a but unlikely at 40k's scale. The issue I have is that the models are designed differently, particularly as things have changed over time. The various different humans don't all have the same proportions and their equipment is differen - DKoK tend to have thinner guns, for example. Combine these factors and it becomes tricky to build a cohesive-looking army.

 

To be fair I can probably get around a lot of this by just using Krieg models to represent other stuff. I probably could model some Krieg guys as tank commanders, maybe on Solar Auxilia tanks if I added sponsons to them. Lots of work though, and I don't really have time for that.

[Casual Heresy]

Well that update makes my plans slightly more complicated. I have some spare Vostroyan infantry and special weapons but not sure if there are enough for me to turn all six squads into "Cadian Shock Troopers". And I'll need to try and get a hold of another 2 lascannon weapons teams and another heavy bolter to make full legal squads. 

 

Think my my weird guard will be a slower grow than I anticipated.

[TheArtilleryman]

13 minutes ago, Mandragola said:

I guess I didn't get my point across that well. On one hand, I agree it's cool to have different cultures represented in a Guard army, even if really that would be a but unlikely at 40k's scale. The issue I have is that the models are designed differently, particularly as things have changed over time. The various different humans don't all have the same proportions and their equipment is differen - DKoK tend to have thinner guns, for example. Combine these factors and it becomes tricky to build a cohesive-looking army.

Completely get this. Exactly what I meant about not liking using the old and new Cadians together. I know some people don’t mind but for me it breaks the cohesion.

14 minutes ago, Casual Heresy said:

Well that update makes my plans slightly more complicated. I have some spare Vostroyan infantry and special weapons but not sure if there are enough for me to turn all six squads into "Cadian Shock Troopers". And I'll need to try and get a hold of another 2 lascannon weapons teams and another heavy bolter to make full legal squads. 

 

Think my my weird guard will be a slower grow than I anticipated.

Recent experience with my firstborn army just makes me say stuff it. I’ll just continue using infantry squads at 60 points a squad, I’m not doing tournaments anyway.
 

Sorry, topic is getting derailed, and partly my fault. Upshot of the thread is I like the models in the battleforce but not enough to buy one.

[DemonGSides]

18 minutes ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Oh really?  to them if that’s the case, because basic infantry squads with special and heavy weapons are the ENTIRE basis of my army. Unless Cadian squads have been changed to allow heavy weapon teams, this is gonna make me really angry. An absurd change because that generic unit was perfect for homebrew regiments. I do NOT understand this obsession GW have with reducing flexibility to make you buy specific kits. Don’t they realise they would sell more heavy weapon kits if they kept the infantry squad option, as people would buy both…?

 

More heavy weapon team allowance is a good thing, and if they were not specifically Catachan/Krieg I could live with the change as I’d be able to have 2 extra HWT at the expense of one less infantry squad, or whatever. But this makes no sense.

 

I'm not sure I see the issue here.  Squads no longer mix together, but you're getting similar numbers of access to HWT that you did previously, just as their own units as opposed to integrated datasheets.  Technically there are less HW going around due to the change to command squads, but overall I don't think many people were bringing more than a handful anyways. 

 

The article even mentions that owners of IG armies should really come to terms with the idea that yes, the datasheets have "Cadian" on them, but they can be used for whatever type of infantry you want. Want a full DKoK army?  Perfect! Use Cadian datasheets as your objective holder DKoK while your regular DKoK datasheet to represent your forward pushing elements of infantry.  Have a Mordian regiment from back in the day? Run them as one of the three infantry flavors you want to.

 

Ideally they would be something like "Assault Infantry squad", "Defensive squad", and "Offensive squad" but those names aren't trademarkable so pretty obvious why they did what they did.

 

Honestly this article was a breath of fresh air. I now can go through with my modifications to the Solar Auxilia I have to turn them into Catachans. 

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

21 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm not sure I see the issue here.  Squads no longer mix together, but you're getting similar numbers of access to HWT that you did previously, just as their own units as opposed to integrated datasheets.  Technically there are less HW going around due to the change to command squads, but overall I don't think many people were bringing more than a handful anyways. 

 

The article even mentions that owners of IG armies should really come to terms with the idea that yes, the datasheets have "Cadian" on them, but they can be used for whatever type of infantry you want. Want a full DKoK army?  Perfect! Use Cadian datasheets as your objective holder DKoK while your regular DKoK datasheet to represent your forward pushing elements of infantry.  Have a Mordian regiment from back in the day? Run them as one of the three infantry flavors you want to.

 

Ideally they would be something like "Assault Infantry squad", "Defensive squad", and "Offensive squad" but those names aren't trademarkable so pretty obvious why they did what they did.

 

Honestly this article was a breath of fresh air. I now can go through with my modifications to the Solar Auxilia I have to turn them into Catachans. 

 

 

 

I think the main complaint is that the Generic Platoon Infantry Squad with their intergrated HWT was a unique thing the others lack which you can't do now.

 

Also, good luck dealing with the kind of players who get mad at Ultramarines players for painting them a slightly different shade of Blue if you want to run your converted Valhallan Infantry Squads with the Kreig rules.

[TheArtilleryman]

34 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm not sure I see the issue here.  Squads no longer mix together, but you're getting similar numbers of access to HWT that you did previously, just as their own units as opposed to integrated datasheets.  Technically there are less HW going around due to the change to command squads, but overall I don't think many people were bringing more than a handful anyways. 

 

The article even mentions that owners of IG armies should really come to terms with the idea that yes, the datasheets have "Cadian" on them, but they can be used for whatever type of infantry you want. Want a full DKoK army?  Perfect! Use Cadian datasheets as your objective holder DKoK while your regular DKoK datasheet to represent your forward pushing elements of infantry.  Have a Mordian regiment from back in the day? Run them as one of the three infantry flavors you want to.

 

Ideally they would be something like "Assault Infantry squad", "Defensive squad", and "Offensive squad" but those names aren't trademarkable so pretty obvious why they did what they did.

 

Honestly this article was a breath of fresh air. I now can go through with my modifications to the Solar Auxilia I have to turn them into Catachans. 

 

 

I’m glad you wrote this and completely get the idea of proxying - I’m here for it. You’re right though, it would be better if the squads weren’t named after those specific regiments if that was their intention all along.
 

The issue is removing the infantry squad type that includes a heavy weapon team. This was a nice option and the traditional option. The flexibility was nice. Instead you now have to reorganise all your squads if you want to stay “legal.”
 

A minor annoyance is also that I’ve painted squad numbers on them all that I would have to re-do whilst reorganising them. Plus I’ll have some odd random spare infantry models that don’t fit into any squad by the time I’m done because the numbers don’t add up right (Edit: 8 models, in fact, because I have 6 infantry squads with HWTs. Sure I can make 2 HW squads but then I’m left with 4 x squads plus 8 guys left over. Nearly a full painted squad, which is even more annoying than one or two leftover dudes).

 

Just don’t get why they couldn’t leave that one page in the codex.

Edited Tuesday at 04:19 PM by TheArtilleryman

[Indy Techwisp]

A slight upside here is that by leaving Catachan units in the codex there's a chance they get their long needed model updates sooner rather than later.

 

Also from looking at the Guard reddit we're currently at one count of "I am going to set fire to my army in protest", so we'll see if that number goes up as more is revealed.

[Cyrox]

Just now, Indy Techwisp said:

A slight upside here is that by leaving Catachan units in the codex there's a chance they get their long needed model updates sooner rather than later.

 

 

That was my first thought too, they are long overdue an upgrade and I'm expecting either a Krieg style box or an introduction via Kill Team.

 

Ripper Jackson and the ltd edition Colonel laid the groundwork... we know they can make good Catachan plastics.

[DemonGSides]

38 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I think the main complaint is that the Generic Platoon Infantry Squad with their intergrated HWT was a unique thing the others lack which you can't do now.

 

Also, good luck dealing with the kind of players who get mad at Ultramarines players for painting them a slightly different shade of Blue if you want to run your converted Valhallan Infantry Squads with the Kreig rules.

 

For the first part, you can run basically the same exact army as before, you just have the HWT as separate units now. I get it's a change, but it's ultimately not a big deal unless it's wrt modelling like TheArtilleryMan mentioned; having to repaint is annoying. 

 

For the second part, I have been playing a lot of games over the past few years and no one cares about this. It feels like a Boogeyman from grognards past where people think the community is as negative as the online represents.

 

Online Warhammer communities are generally quite negative and restrictive. In person Warhammer communities generally seem pretty accepting because we all wanna game.  No one cares how you paint your dudes. Just don't cheat. 

[Mogger351]

I don't have a guard army, I contemplated it, but this choice upsets me in honesty. It's equivalent to encouraging people to use the same legionnaires minis as rubrics, noise marines and zerkers all in the same list.

 

It's bad enough that plenty of guard ranges are now forced to proxy due to not having any rules, but they want people to use all cadians for units with identical appearances but different rules and interactions?

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

Dear God, they don't learn.

Nah they learned, they just learned the wrong lesson. Y'all still reward them for the Chapterhouse lawsuit anyway, so I'm not surprised this is the end result LOL

[apologist]

My initial reaction was dismay, similar to @TheArtilleryman, and for similar reasons.

 

On balance, however, I don't mind the loss of the generic Guard squad – because as with the previous Codex, I prefer to think of these less as specifically Krieg, Cadian and Catachan so much as different archetypes. 'Die-hard', 'Everyman', and 'Commano' (or whatever you prefer)

 

Do I want a die-hard, rod-up-his-back Colonel in my Catachan army? Sure – I'll use the Krieg Command Squad rules, which have the nice bonus that they don't play well with the other jungle fighters. Not ideal, but good enough for me.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I think the main complaint is that the Generic Platoon Infantry Squad with their intergrated HWT was a unique thing the others lack which you can't do now.

 

Also, good luck dealing with the kind of players who get mad at Ultramarines players for painting them a slightly different shade of Blue if you want to run your converted Valhallan Infantry Squads with the Kreig rules.

That’s the thing, I wouldn’t deal with someone like that for a casual game and in a tournament if the TO/refs are cool with it it’s just tough cookies for them.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

45 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

For the first part, you can run basically the same exact army as before, you just have the HWT as separate units now. I get it's a change, but it's ultimately not a big deal unless it's wrt modelling like TheArtilleryMan mentioned; having to repaint is annoying. 

 

For the second part, I have been playing a lot of games over the past few years and no one cares about this. It feels like a Boogeyman from grognards past where people think the community is as negative as the online represents.

 

Online Warhammer communities are generally quite negative and restrictive. In person Warhammer communities generally seem pretty accepting because we all wanna game.  No one cares how you paint your dudes. Just don't cheat. 

It is kind of a big deal.

 

for example my army now requires me to scrape together 6 minis for 3 squads to remain legal (assuming none of those datasheets allow for an integrated HWT)

[DemonGSides]

56 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I don't have a guard army, I contemplated it, but this choice upsets me in honesty. It's equivalent to encouraging people to use the same legionnaires minis as rubrics, noise marines and zerkers all in the same list.

 

It's bad enough that plenty of guard ranges are now forced to proxy due to not having any rules, but they want people to use all cadians for units with identical appearances but different rules and interactions?

 

I can't imagine being upset about Warhammer at all.  These are toys. 

 

There's very obvious ways to model them differently. You could even just paint them slightly different.