Krieg Boxset

[Mogger351]

12 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I can't imagine being upset about Warhammer at all.  These are toys. 

 

There's very obvious ways to model them differently. You could even just paint them slightly different.

Upset is simply an expression of dissapointment in this context.

 

But yeah if you had a fully painted vostroyan army, you've now got to convert or repaint chunks of it, or get stuck playing a guessing game of which unit is which.

[CommissarXin]

Why? It'd be simple to make markers to say what squad is what. 

[DemonGSides]

18 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

Upset is simply an expression of dissapointment in this context.

 

But yeah if you had a fully painted vostroyan army, you've now got to convert or repaint chunks of it, or get stuck playing a guessing game of which unit is which.

 

No you don't. 

 

You just add a little reminder to the squad in the form of a colored die or a flag or paint the rim of a single base in the unit a specific color; I already do this with Cadians so I can keep squads together that were painted together so that they sorta look similar.  Blue squad likes to hang with blue squad, red squad likes to hang with red squad. Helps when the blobs get close to each other on the battlefield.

 

This is a creative hobby; get creative.  It's not that hard.

 

Ever seen a space marine army from more than a foot away that doesn't have anything other than infantry?  It's literally the same thing. 

[Sky Potato]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Also, good luck dealing with the kind of players who get mad at Ultramarines players for painting them a slightly different shade of Blue if you want to run your converted Valhallan Infantry Squads with the Kreig rules.

The article literally says

 

The generic Platoon Command Squad and Platoon Infantry Squad datasheets have been removed – but there’s nothing to stop you from using one of the three archetypes for your own infantry. Do your Mordians have more in common with Cadia or with Krieg?

 

Meaning the whole point now is you’re supposed to run Valhallans with Krieg rules. Or Catachan, if you prefer. No need to repaint anything, or even justify why your Valhallans are using Krieg rules.

 

I don’t know why anyone is surprised by this, it's very similar to how Space Marine chapters work at the moment.

 

I’m not for one minute saying this is how I would have liked the guard to be have been done - but I’m not surprised.

[TheMawr]

Alot (not all) sounds as If they where named and threated as Shock Troopers, Deathkorps and Jungle Fighters alot (not all) of the problem were solved ?

 

While I agree with the count-as sentiment (and practice it myself), I do know and realize that it feels more natural to have your gasmask wearing unit from the toxic part of your jungleworld be Deathkorps than Deathkorps of Krieg. It doesnt help that the short names focus on the regiment not the unit ( we usually say Cadians, Catachans and Krieg.)

This is not a new thing though, this was a guard problem as early as 2nd edition, though I think eventually they did left some regiment names behind.

 

The better comparison than what Ive seen would be if the Ork codex had ( Im actually not sure right now, werent they clan tied like this in 2nd edition?) :

Goff Nobz, Blood Axe Kommandos and Snakebite Beastsnaggas

 

or more relatable on a majority spacemarine forum, if the units where

Ultramarine Intercessors

Whitescar Outriders
Imperial Fist Terminators
Ravenguard Reivers
Iron Hands techmarine

 

While you can just use them as any of those, it doesnt feel the same as the names are now. even if its just a single word.
Its not so much an issue with the studio paintjob on the box or even the name on the box ( many generic characters have a name on the box, though I think they stopped that practice a couple of years ago.) as long as the rules dont have that extra name baked in it.

 

In short

I get both sides of the coin very well.

so its a worthless, but at least doublesided 2 cents added

[Emperor Ming]

18 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Yeah you can have up to 24 infantry squads of 20 each (6 x Cadian, 6 x Catachan, 6 x Krieg and 6 x generic infantry squad) for a total of 480 men.

 

But you can still only take 3 heavy weapon squads in support …

[DemonGSides]

1 minute ago, TheMawr said:

Alot (not all) sounds as If they where named and threated as Shock Troopers, Deathkorps and Jungle Fighters alot (not all) of the problem were solved ?

 

While I agree with the count-as sentiment (and practice it myself), I do know and realize that it feels more natural to have your gasmask wearing unit from the toxic part of your jungleworld be Deathkorps than Deathkorps of Krieg. It doesnt help that the short names focus on the regiment not the unit ( we usually say Cadians, Catachans and Krieg.)

This is not a new thing though, this was a guard problem as early as 2nd edition, though I think eventually they did left some regiment names behind.

 

The better comparison than what Ive seen would be if the Ork codex had ( Im actually not sure right now, werent they clan tied like this in 2nd edition?) :

Goff Nobz, Blood Axe Kommandos and Snakebite Beastsnaggas

 

or more relatable on a majority spacemarine forum, if the units where

Ultramarine Intercessors

Whitescar Outriders
Imperial Fist Terminators
Ravenguard Reivers
Iron Hands techmarine

 

While you can just use them as any of those, it doesnt feel the same as the names are now. even if its just a single word.
Its not so much an issue with the studio paintjob on the box or even the name on the box ( many generic characters have a name on the box, though I think they stopped that practice a couple of years ago.) as long as the rules dont have that extra name baked in it.

 

In short

I get both sides of the coin very well.

so its a worthless, but at least doublesided 2 cents added

 

 

Not being able to get over the name on the datasheet just feels like complaining for complaining sake from most people making those arguments. (Not saying you are doing this, just from the complaints here over the past two years)

 

Like unless I'm also a player of that faction, chances of me knowing the ins an outs and specific names associated with the units of, say, the dark Eldar are slim to none. A whych and a warlock could be anything to me. So why are we so worried about what the models look like when attached to the datasheet instead of just saying that these models ARE this datasheet?

 

And do people refuse to play with 3D printed proxies of space Marines?  I hope not. This isn't much different. 

 

It just feels like a lot of policing when there's no need. Like it's okay to just consider the Cadian datasheets to read as "Shock Troops". It's how most people have thought about it for a long, long time.

 

 

1 minute ago, Emperor Ming said:

18 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Yeah you can have up to 24 infantry squads of 20 each (6 x Cadian, 6 x Catachan, 6 x Krieg and 6 x generic infantry squad) for a total of 480 men.

 

But you can still only take 3 heavy weapon squads in support …

Your math is wrong. 

[Emperor Ming]

So lost 6 squads from that tally

 

So down to 360ish...

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

So lost 6 squads from that tally

 

So down to 360ish...

 

Correct. You also get three times the heavy weapons squads made mention.  It also makes no mention of the variety of infantry we have no in the battle line slot, so if your gripe is that we can't bring enough bodies, well that's just not paying very good attention. 

 

So the base of your complaint is already wrong. This is what people mean when they say complaining for complaining sake. You're not even sure what you're complaining about!

Edited Tuesday at 06:51 PM by DemonGSides

[zarkkarn]

1 hour ago, Mogger351 said:

I don't have a guard army, I contemplated it, but this choice upsets me in honesty. It's equivalent to encouraging people to use the same legionnaires minis as rubrics, noise marines and zerkers all in the same list.

 

It's bad enough that plenty of guard ranges are now forced to proxy due to not having any rules, but they want people to use all cadians for units with identical appearances but different rules and interactions?

 

As long as you make an effort to make the squads distinct its nit an issue. For example if running an all cadian army you can use gas mask helms on the death korp squad, clearly visible knives and other melee weapons on the catachans then just use standard cadian box for cadians. 

 

If you run 3 bog standard cadian squads as they come out the box and 1 is catacham 1 is cadian 1 is krieg not only is it confusing for your opponent you will definitely forget which is which.

[CommissarXin]

Why is it so difficult for people to literally take a spare base and write Krieg,Catachan, or Cadian on it to mark the squad? 

[Mogger351]

There's a few people I'd respond to but it's easier to make a general response than chop and change multiple quotes.

 

The fact is that GW are encouraging you to take a named precise unit and ruin it both as the unit it represents, and other named equivalent units.

 

To give an example, this is the same as being told you can use 3 units of identical chaos space marines to represent legionnaires, khorne berzerkers and rubrics all in a chaos undivided list.

 

Yes you can model them differently, yes you can paint differently, you can use tokens, you can use spare bases. But none of these are mandated.

 

But you know what's a lot easier? A unit of shock troopers, a unit of guerilla fighters and a unit of trench fighters. You could then have an army wide keyword for the regiment if needed (same way as marine chapters work). Then your 15 tallarn guys aren't simultaneously representing a unit each of:

 

Death korps of krieg command squad

Cadian command squad

Catachan command squad

 

Each with assumingly their own interactions to the various infantry squads they pair with.

Edited Tuesday at 07:23 PM by Mogger351

[INKS]

Maybe I am missing something. I don't see the problem. Your basic squad are to be considered cadians. and if you don't like the rules for that use one of the other two flavors. It's kinda like generic marines or your own marine chapter being codex. Cadians are just codex.

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 minutes ago, INKS said:

Maybe I am missing something. I don't see the problem. Your basic squad are to be considered cadians. and if you don't like the rules for that use one of the other two flavors. It's kinda like generic marines or your own marine chapter being codex. Cadians are just codex.

 

It’s a bit more nuanced than that, because they’ll all likely have their specific regimental key word, so a Cadian officer likely won’t grant his buffs to kreig or Catachan units.

 

it would be like using calgar with crusaders, and death company in the army.

 

on top of that a box of intercessors as default can be any chapter because they’re completely generic. That’s not the case here, and for some reason some people in the modern 40K era have a seriously hard time wrapping their heads around the ‘counts as’ concept.

Edited Tuesday at 07:40 PM by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[CommissarXin]

How is changing the datasheet name any different? You'd still be going this squad is Trench fighters,this squad is shock troopers and etc... it's literally a non issue. 

[DemonGSides]

19 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

There's a few people I'd respond to but it's easier to make a general response than chop and change multiple quotes.

 

The fact is that GW are encouraging you to take a named precise unit and ruin it both as the unit it represents, and other named equivalent units.

 

To give an example, this is the same as being told you can use 3 units of identical chaos space marines to represent legionnaires, khorne berzerkers and rubrics all in a chaos undivided list.

 

Yes you can model them differently, yes you can paint differently, you can use tokens, you can use spare bases. But none of these are mandated.

 

But you know what's a lot easier? A unit of shock troopers, a unit of guerilla fighters and a unit of trench fighters. You could then have an army wide keyword for the regiment if needed (same way as marine chapters work). Then your 15 tallarn guys aren't simultaneously representing a unit each of:

 

Death korps of krieg command squad

Cadian command squad

Catachan command squad

 

Each with assumingly their own interactions to the various infantry squads they pair with.

 

I think you've massively misunderstood something on such a basic level that I don't think I'm capable of explaining how silly all this is. 

[Mogger351]

41 minutes ago, INKS said:

Maybe I am missing something. I don't see the problem. Your basic squad are to be considered cadians. and if you don't like the rules for that use one of the other two flavors. It's kinda like generic marines or your own marine chapter being codex. Cadians are just codex.

 

 

Because there's literally nothing stopping someone taking 3 squads of valhallans, running 1 squad of death korps, 1 squad of cadians and 1 squad of catachan. They'd be visually identical, representing 3 totally different units when they could previously just be "infantry squad". This is like running 3 units of identically converted terminators as vanilla, wolf guard and deathwing all at once.

 

24 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I think you've massively misunderstood something on such a basic level that I don't think I'm capable of explaining how silly all this is. 

 

I hope when you play a game against someone representing 3 subsets of rules all using the same none descript minis, that it is basic and understandable for you, that this isn't great.

 

Since the masses are fine with it seemingly, please carry on.

Edited Tuesday at 08:09 PM by Mogger351

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

 

Because there's literally nothing stopping someone taking 3 squads of valhallans, running 1 squad of death korps, 1 squad of cadians and 1 squad of catachan. They'd be visually identical, representing 3 totally different units when they could previously just be "infantry squad". This is like running 3 units of identically converted terminators as vanilla, wolf guard and deathwing all at once.

 

 

I hope when you play a game against someone representing 3 subsets of rules all using the same minis none descript minis that it is basic and understandable for you that this isn't great.

 

Since the masses are fine with it seemingly, please carry on.

Assuming wargear options remain bespoke it won’t be that hard…Catachans 2 flamers.

kreig a medic and 2 special weapons, or 3 special weapons.

catachan 2 special weapons.

 

 

[Sky Potato]

10 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

The fact is that GW are encouraging you to take a named precise unit and ruin it both as the unit it represents, and other named equivalent units.

 

To give an example, this is the same as being told you can use 3 units of identical chaos space marines to represent legionnaires, khorne berzerkers and rubrics all in a chaos undivided list.

How so?

 

An Imperial Guard infantry squad is an Imperial Guard infantry squad. 10 dudes with lasguns.
 

There are currently three different box sets which build this squad, and these three different sets will get their own bespoke rules, rather than having generic rules for one set and bespoke rules for the other two like at the moment.

 

There are also many out of production sets which will also build this squad. The new rules have removed the generic rules, so anybody with a Valhallan squad or a Mordian squad will get to choose between the three different rules as they choose.

Same as Heavy Weapon Squads. A Heavy Bolter team - other heavy weapons are available - can be bought with either Cadian, Catachan or Krieg crew, and other variants exists but are out of production. Its not yet been explicitly stated how the datasheets for Heavy Weapons will work, given the lunacy of having different datasheets for vehicles with different weapon options

 

We don’t yet know if all the units within a given detachment need to be using the same rule. That is how most other detachments work in 10th. The article hints that’ll you’ll be able to mix and match, but that’s not confirmed

 

 

 

The comparison with Chaos Marines is odd. Khorne Berserkers have their own specific models and datasheets - but there is nothing wrong with anybody using a box of Chaos Marines to make their own Berserkers. Same with Rubrics.

 

The issue of using the same kit to make 3 very separate units strays into proxies and modelling for advantage - which depends how much you want to be “that guy” I suppose…

[Sky Potato]

9 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

 

Because there's literally nothing stopping someone taking 3 squads of valhallans, running 1 squad of death korps, 1 squad of cadians and 1 squad of catachan. They'd be visually identical, representing 3 totally different units when they could previously just be "infantry squad". This is like running 3 units of identically converted terminators as vanilla, wolf guard and deathwing all at once.

We don’t know that. Each detachment could easily require all datasheets to use the same trait.

Edited Tuesday at 08:13 PM by Sky Potato
Change easy to easily

[OttoVonAwesome]

1 hour ago, zarkkarn said:

 

As long as you make an effort to make the squads distinct its nit an issue. For example if running an all cadian army you can use gas mask helms on the death korp squad, clearly visible knives and other melee weapons on the catachans then just use standard cadian box for cadians. 

 

If you run 3 bog standard cadian squads as they come out the box and 1 is catacham 1 is cadian 1 is krieg not only is it confusing for your opponent you will definitely forget which is which.

I have bayonets and helmet covers on the cadians I use as catachan troops and also gave them light green fatigues as opposed to tan. Works fine.

 

I only wish they had more regiments. Elysian drop troops for Airborne troops and Steel Legion to represent armoured regiments.

Edited Tuesday at 08:16 PM by OttoVonAwesome

[Mogger351]

3 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

 

The comparison with Chaos Marines is odd. Khorne Berserkers have their own specific models and datasheets - but there is nothing wrong with anybody using a box of Chaos Marines to make their own Berserkers. Same with Rubrics.

 

The issue of using the same kit to make 3 very separate units strays into proxies and modelling for advantage - which depends how much you want to be “that guy” I suppose…

 

It is odd, but it's the nearest comparison I could think of for a direct comparison. They can all be fielded together in 1 army, they're different forms of core infantry and the equivalent is being told you can use your core infantry to be any/all of the above, no conversion, no representation needed.

 

It is absolutely into abusing proxies and being "that guy" to some degree, but is a mordian player who has a unit that plays more forwards traditionally being catachan, whilst his more ranged units being cadian really abusing the game any more than the dodgy design choice?

5 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

We don’t know that. Each detachment could easily require all datasheets to use the same trait.

It's possible but it seems unlikely, that'd certainly quell my complaints though.

[Sky Potato]

3 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

It's possible but it seems unlikely, that'd certainly quell my complaints though.

Not really - traits and special rules like this are generally detachment rules in 10th.

 

It would make sense if you chose the Krieg detachment that you could only use Krieg datasheets.

 

But at the moment, we just don’t know.

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Your math is wrong. 

My maths or someone else’s maths? I was basing this on the current index before the info about the codex changes appeared. 4 types of squad x 6 = 24 squads, x 20 guys each = 480, plus 3 heavy weapon squads.

 

With the new codex it’ll be 3 types of squad x 6 = 18 squads, x 20 guys each = 360, plus 9 heavy weapon squads. Better balance in that sense.

[TheArtilleryman]

47 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Assuming wargear options remain bespoke it won’t be that hard…Catachans 2 flamers.

kreig a medic and 2 special weapons, or 3 special weapons.

catachan 2 special weapons.

 

 

 

You’ve already got mixed up and named the Cadian squad Catachans. Case in point.