How would you upgrade outriders and ATVs?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Weapon wise, without stepping on DA’s toes of course.

 

outriders- sgt can take a plasma pistol, and  one biker gets to replace his bike’s bolters for twin linked grenade launchers.

 

ATV- give a las talon option maybe?

[Karhedron]

Bikes were mostly good for toting special weapons, maxed Grav was probably the peak of this. But Outriders get no shooting options. In 9th they got 4 bolt rifle shots and 6A on the charge meaning that they were good for chaff clearance. They just don't have a role in 10th, not one that isn't done better and cheaper by something else. A 6 man unit is quite a lot of fast wounds but the footprint is pretty big. 

 

ATVs are starting to see play again now that they are down to 60 points. That is less than 10 points per T5 wound. I am not sure if a Las Talon would help. It is 2 anti-tank shots just like the MM. The LT has better strength and range but the MM has better AP and extra Damage at half range. You can make the argument one way or the other but it wouldn't really give the ATV any new capability. 

[AutumnEffect]

 

* make the Twin Bolt Rifle Assault so they can advance and shoot without needing to use a ----ing strat or detachment tax.

 

* trade their unit ability for something good. Getting max advance would be ok if anything else in the unit could function when they advanced. Their guns aren't natively Assault and they cannot natively advance and charge so if you Turbo-Boost the unit then your expensive bikers aren't going to be doing anything else that turn unless you invest more opportunity costs into them.

 

 * Unit ability ideas:

Advance and charge

Fall back and charge

Unit gains an 5+ invulnerable save vs shooting if it advanced.

Unit gets a heroic intervention move.

 

* Let the sergeant take a melee specialist weapons. Simple as.

 

-----

 

The problem with Outriders is that the unit has no synergy with itself.

 

It's got an advance ability but no Assault weapons or capacity to advance and charge.

 

It's relatively fast, but it's guns don't benefit from that speed. They can reach far enough and don't do any more damage at closer or further range bands. 

 

The unit has a bunch of chainswords and moves 12", but so do Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs. But they also fly, are cheaper, can get specialist weapons and can deep strike, not to mention you can stuff a Captain in them.

 

That just leaves the fact they are tough, which they are, but Heavy Intercessors are pretty much on par with them there, trading out 1 wound for toughness 6 and +1 save vs damage 1 chip weapon damage and the ability to get more ready access to cover via entering Ruins.

 

They have no ----ing identity.

 

-----

 

My Outrider Squad would have advance and charge for the ability, Assault Twin Bolt rifles and a sergeant that can carry a weapon worth a ----. 

When they can advance, shoot and charge without needing to dump strats and/or detachment abilities to do it they actually aren't bad.

Put guaranteed advance move value as a detachment rule they can have access to and now the engines are revving.

Edited December 2, 2024 by AutumnEffect

[HeadlessCross]

The other issue, along with everything else named here, is they don't have a good character to attach to them either. The Bike Chaplain makes their melee less limp but the other ability to make their range weapon Devastating is absolutely laughable. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

Bikes were mostly good for toting special weapons, maxed Grav was probably the peak of this. But Outriders get no shooting options. In 9th they got 4 bolt rifle shots and 6A on the charge meaning that they were good for chaff clearance. They just don't have a role in 10th, not one that isn't done better and cheaper by something else. A 6 man unit is quite a lot of fast wounds but the footprint is pretty big. 

 

ATVs are starting to see play again now that they are down to 60 points. That is less than 10 points per T5 wound. I am not sure if a Las Talon would help. It is 2 anti-tank shots just like the MM. The LT has better strength and range but the MM has better AP and extra Damage at half range. You can make the argument one way or the other but it wouldn't really give the ATV any new capability. 

I think the longer range and higher S would make a big difference.

 

short range shooting units with no real melee ability doesn’t make much sense. Especially an ‘AT’ weapon that rarely actually wounds the targeted tank.

[Indy Techwisp]

15 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Weapon wise, without stepping on DA’s toes of course.

 

outriders- sgt can take a plasma pistol, and  one biker gets to replace his bike’s bolters for twin linked grenade launchers.

 

ATV- give a las talon option maybe?

Personally I'm all for stepping on the Dark Angels toes and stealing their unique Bike units that DA players seemingly despise having.

 

But besides that:

ATV- Give it a 3rd Turret option in the form of an "AGL" type weapon similar to what the Impulsor has as a side turret so you can have a Blast option. Other than that, it's OK.

Outriders- 1 in 3 getting a Grenade Launcher instead of the Boltrifles as mentioned above, Sargent being able to take a Fancy Pistol (Hand Flamer, Plasma Pistol, etc.) and a Power Weapon.

 

But most importantly:

More Character Support

The Bike Chaplain is OK, but they really do need more Character's on Bikes.

Things like a Bike Captain or a Bike Librarian.

 

Also, and this is more of a long shot, another Bike-type unit which fills a different role.

Outriders need another bike to contrast them, something which would highlight the actual Role Outriders are supposed to be filling.

Something like an "Outrider Veterans" unit, with more options and fancier ones at that... something like the Ravenwing Knights basically.

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Also, and this is more of a long shot, another Bike-type unit which fills a different role.

Outriders need another bike to contrast them, something which would highlight the actual Role Outriders are supposed to be filling.

Something like an "Outrider Veterans" unit, with more options and fancier ones at that... something like the Ravenwing Knights basically.

 

While I too long for a veteran bike squad (Stormguard?) I would also accept a Scout Bikers redo.

 

Would be a neat avenue to provide some cool special rules and abilities.

[Karhedron]

Given that the current Outrider models are monopose, I feel the chances of wargear upgrades are slim. How about rules updates to give them a role. Outriders are supposed to be Scouts and Recon so how about giving them Scout 12" or the ability to come in from Reserves on T1. That would give them the opportunity to bag Objectives or assault light enemy units on the flank.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Personally I'm all for stepping on the Dark Angels toes and stealing their unique Bike units that DA players seemingly despise having.

 

But besides that:

ATV- Give it a 3rd Turret option in the form of an "AGL" type weapon similar to what the Impulsor has as a side turret so you can have a Blast option. Other than that, it's OK.

Outriders- 1 in 3 getting a Grenade Launcher instead of the Boltrifles as mentioned above, Sargent being able to take a Fancy Pistol (Hand Flamer, Plasma Pistol, etc.) and a Power Weapon.

 

But most importantly:

More Character Support

The Bike Chaplain is OK, but they really do need more Character's on Bikes.

Things like a Bike Captain or a Bike Librarian.

 

Also, and this is more of a long shot, another Bike-type unit which fills a different role.

Outriders need another bike to contrast them, something which would highlight the actual Role Outriders are supposed to be filling.

Something like an "Outrider Veterans" unit, with more options and fancier ones at that... something like the Ravenwing Knights basically.

A mk19 type weapon will always be cool, but how do you make it competitive with any other options?

as things generally currently stand the frag profile would be worse than the onslaught, and the krak profile would be worse than the multimelta for AT work.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

37 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A mk19 type weapon will always be cool, but how do you make it competitive with any other options?

as things generally currently stand the frag profile would be worse than the onslaught, and the krak profile would be worse than the multimelta for AT work.

Blast keyword, mostly.

Probably also an AP between the Onslaught and the MM

[Dr. Clock]

It's been said - Assault bolters, and make the bolters '2x1' instead of twin-linked. There are tonnes of cases where the choice to change twin-link to W re-roll instead of actually doubling shots made the units way worse than necessary.

 

Perversely, there are a bunch of cases where GW noticed this and just... left some with double shots on a twin-link. You've got your Godhammer LR, storm bolters, and even Ballistarii where they straight up changed the unit BACK to double shots.

 

Granted for IFVs like razorbacks and wave serpents it's not great to have that such volume of heavy fire where they become more efficient than MBTs, but bikes in particular suffered as a result, being one of 2 main unit types that regularly used to get slapped with 'battle rifle but two of them'. Meanwhile the other unit that this was common on - terminators and equivalents - gets to keep its 4 shots because 2-shot terminators is nobody's idea of elite (I understand that storm bolters are 2 shots over 12", but nobody is seriously using terminators at those ranges for more than an incidental turn).

 

With 4 bolter shots each they'd end up being almost as shooty as eldar bikes (well - the good ones, anyway) but quite a bit chunkier and hittier. Sure, they won't really be able to punch up, but at least they'll be able to punch down alright, and have the movement needed to actually get into ideal targets.

 

But yeah - giving them Assault is the bare minimum IMO. If no return to 4 shots each, then they probably also need fall back shoot and charge

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

It's been said - Assault bolters, and make the bolters '2x1' instead of twin-linked. There are tonnes of cases where the choice to change twin-link to W re-roll instead of actually doubling shots made the units way worse than necessary.

 

Perversely, there are a bunch of cases where GW noticed this and just... left some with double shots on a twin-link. You've got your Godhammer LR, storm bolters, and even Ballistarii where they straight up changed the unit BACK to double shots.

 

Granted for IFVs like razorbacks and wave serpents it's not great to have that such volume of heavy fire where they become more efficient than MBTs, but bikes in particular suffered as a result, being one of 2 main unit types that regularly used to get slapped with 'battle rifle but two of them'. Meanwhile the other unit that this was common on - terminators and equivalents - gets to keep its 4 shots because 2-shot terminators is nobody's idea of elite (I understand that storm bolters are 2 shots over 12", but nobody is seriously using terminators at those ranges for more than an incidental turn).

 

With 4 bolter shots each they'd end up being almost as shooty as eldar bikes (well - the good ones, anyway) but quite a bit chunkier and hittier. Sure, they won't really be able to punch up, but at least they'll be able to punch down alright, and have the movement needed to actually get into ideal targets.

 

But yeah - giving them Assault is the bare minimum IMO. If no return to 4 shots each, then they probably also need fall back shoot and charge

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

I definitely agree that TL being reroll wounds feels weird to me.

 

id prefer either more shots or reroll misses.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

id prefer either more shots or reroll misses.

 

Whilst that would match older editions, rerolls to wound are generally more valuable than rerolls to hit and harder to come by. This is especially true for Marines with OOM.

[Moonstalker]

Well, under GW's current philosophy, I don't think we can add entire weapon options to them.  Melee weapons for the sergeant seem okay, as there's precedent for that with things like Intercessors, but in general GW goes with if it's not on the sprue, it's not an option these days.  So IMO adding a grenade launcher or something is a non-starter, just not a realistic change under current conditions.

 

So, IMO:

Outriders get Lance to make their charges more effective.  Sergeant gets melee weapon options.  Their twin bolt rifles get Rapid Fire 2 instead of TL.  Fall back and charge instead of turbo boost to represent them making slashing attacks/jousting through combat instead of getting stuck in, bump their movement from 12" to 14" to differentiate them a bit from jump pack troops.

 

On top of the changes to the twin bolt rifles and movement speed like the Outriders, the Invader needs a different special rule.  Right now the rule does nothing if you don't bring Outriders, additional Invaders, or similar.  And if you bring Outriders, I think people would still shoot the Invader first anyway just to prioritize taking a heavy weapon off the field and to prevent you from using the special rule.  So the chances of this special rule actually doing anything seem slim.  And even then, it's once per turn for your whole army, so if you brought 3 Invaders you could lose two in one turn and still only ever get one use out of the special rule.  That's just really bad.  I'd give it something like "When shooting at a target that has previously been hit by friendly Adeptus Astartes Mounted units this turn, reroll failed wound rolls."  That's a pro-active rule instead of a reactive one, one which synergizes with multiple Invaders or Outriders (promoting an all-mounted force), and works with OoM if it needs to.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

42 minutes ago, Moonstalker said:

Well, under GW's current philosophy, I don't think we can add entire weapon options to them.  Melee weapons for the sergeant seem okay, as there's precedent for that with things like Intercessors, but in general GW goes with if it's not on the sprue, it's not an option these days.  So IMO adding a grenade launcher or something is a non-starter, just not a realistic change under current conditions.

 

So, IMO:

Outriders get Lance to make their charges more effective.  Sergeant gets melee weapon options.  Their twin bolt rifles get Rapid Fire 2 instead of TL.  Fall back and charge instead of turbo boost to represent them making slashing attacks/jousting through combat instead of getting stuck in, bump their movement from 12" to 14" to differentiate them a bit from jump pack troops.

 

On top of the changes to the twin bolt rifles and movement speed like the Outriders, the Invader needs a different special rule.  Right now the rule does nothing if you don't bring Outriders, additional Invaders, or similar.  And if you bring Outriders, I think people would still shoot the Invader first anyway just to prioritize taking a heavy weapon off the field and to prevent you from using the special rule.  So the chances of this special rule actually doing anything seem slim.  And even then, it's once per turn for your whole army, so if you brought 3 Invaders you could lose two in one turn and still only ever get one use out of the special rule.  That's just really bad.  I'd give it something like "When shooting at a target that has previously been hit by friendly Adeptus Astartes Mounted units this turn, reroll failed wound rolls."  That's a pro-active rule instead of a reactive one, one which synergizes with multiple Invaders or Outriders (promoting an all-mounted force), and works with OoM if it needs to.

They release upgrade sprues.

thats how the unique chapters are getting a lot of their specialized primaris units now.

[Dr. Clock]

Instead of a Sgt upgrade sprue, I'd vastly prefer almost any new Mounted unit with just different, better weapons across the whole unit... That way I can keep my existing Outriders as the 'basic trading bois', and add in a unit (probably 2) of proper hitters as second wave. One of the biggest brakes on 'bike/mounted army' is just lack of units, which forces you into big unwieldy bricks... So a 150pt 3-man elite hitter would be awesome and make classic White Scars stuff with like 4-6x3 bike units so much more achievable (and interesting).

 

Essentially I don't like the footprint of a unit of 6 Outriders, and I'm just not interested in painting more than the 2x3 Outriders I have... What I WILL spend money on immediately is likely 2 of any relevant Mounted marine unit to shadow the little utility units... Such a new unit could just as easily be jetbikes with plasma cannons as 'Mounted Bladeguard'... And tbh I'd prefer another shooty option to another melee one, especially now that jump packs are available for Primaris.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Dr. Clock said:

Instead of a Sgt upgrade sprue, I'd vastly prefer almost any new Mounted unit with just different, better weapons across the whole unit... That way I can keep my existing Outriders as the 'basic trading bois', and add in a unit (probably 2) of proper hitters as second wave. One of the biggest brakes on 'bike/mounted army' is just lack of units, which forces you into big unwieldy bricks... So a 150pt 3-man elite hitter would be awesome and make classic White Scars stuff with like 4-6x3 bike units so much more achievable (and interesting).

 

Essentially I don't like the footprint of a unit of 6 Outriders, and I'm just not interested in painting more than the 2x3 Outriders I have... What I WILL spend money on immediately is likely 2 of any relevant Mounted marine unit to shadow the little utility units... Such a new unit could just as easily be jetbikes with plasma cannons as 'Mounted Bladeguard'... And tbh I'd prefer another shooty option to another melee one, especially now that jump packs are available for Primaris.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

 

I doubt we’ll get jet bikes but I do find it interesting GW gave primaris hover tanks but not jet bikes.

 

the upgrade sprue could be for veteran outriders.

sgt with special pistol and special melee weapon.

maybe an extra power sword, and the third dude get the GL on his bike.

[AutumnEffect]

One thing I would really like as far as character support but which doesn't get mentioned very often would be a bike mounted Apothecary to give them a FNP save and/or the ability to heal some wounds. We definitely don't need a repeat of the old trick of bringing back an ATV every turn, but the real defensive strength of Outriders isn't so much their toughness 5 in a world of toughness 6 grav or toughness 5 terminators, it's their beefy 4 wounds. Being able to capitalize on that and play to that strength would be nice.

[Dr. Clock]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I doubt we’ll get jet bikes

Whatever that jet exhaust was on Rumour Engine recently had me thinking marine jetbike, but yea.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Whatever that jet exhaust was on Rumour Engine recently had me thinking marine jetbike, but yea.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Just looked like the speeder exhausts but hopefully maybe.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

6 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

Whatever that jet exhaust was on Rumour Engine recently had me thinking marine jetbike, but yea.

 

The thing is, if you look at that image closer, you'll see it has two stacked exhausts (I missed it the first time myself). Doubt a bike would come in such a configuration. I believe the only kit at present that has such a thing is the Stormfang/Stormtalon, but who knows what Cawl has planned...

 

As for upgrade sprues, what seems to be missed here is that while GW has been doing upgrades in that fashion, they don't tend to do so for push-fit kits.

 

And before anyone screams "But, Muh Ravenwing" I would encourage you to remember that the Ravenwing bits are tooled in such a way that they can simply glue onto a flat (or edge) section of the bike. A weapon upgrade would need to come with the peg to slot into the shoulder, making it incompatible with any future MPK Outrider squad. Meanwhile, the Ravenwing upgrades can graduate to MPK models with no issue.

 

I'm not saying upgrade bits won't happen, but I don't think you'll see them before the Outrider MPK squad arrives. Fortunately, that's probably not too far way - I'd look for it to be part of the Space Marine wave at the beginning of 11th, so probably dropping about two years from now.

 

It's an interesting cycle (no pun intended):

 

2017 - Intercessors

2020 - Assault Intercessors

2023 - Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs

2026 - Assault Intercessors (in all but name) with Bikes

 

Wouldn't be surprised if the datasheet out of the gate enabled all of the weapon options available in the standard Assault Intercessor kit. And if GW hadn't gone for the Grand Endumbification in 10th, it'd be a great way to offer different versions of the Twin Bolt Rifle configuration as well. Maybe since the kit would have been designed back before the rules team decided that players couldn't handle weapon variations or actual points values, we'll see a return to something approaching choice... at least in the kit. Rules-wise it'll probably still be Baby's First Wargame.

[jaxom]

Let them move through enemy units and inflict mortal wounds.

[Orange Knight]

They need a new kit, and they need new weapon options.

 

They also need character support. They could actually work perfectly fine as bodyguards for a strong character on a bike.

 

Units that allow a few models to take some weapon upgrades are also not good in the current edition. You should be able to give the entire squad ranged weapon upgrades or close-combat weapon upgrades.

 

Example - all six with Grav guns, melta guns or plasma guns.

 

All six with power swords or power lances.

[jaxom]

Question for folks. Bike Squads have been described as both recon units and line breakers. A variety of Phobos units and Scouts neatly fill in-game recon roles. Assuming no change in kit, or Sgt upgrades at best, how do Bikes achieve line breaker role without stepping on the toes of Assault Squads?

[DemonGSides]

Allow them to move over/through enemy units, giving them a niche normally only reserved for cheeky Jump Pack squads, and then give them mortals on the move through the enemy unit.  They aren't there to stay in melee (makes no sense for a biker to drive into a pile and start swinging only to his left and right), but could simulate the idea of a cavalry charge that goes through a line.