How would you upgrade outriders and ATVs?

[HeadlessCross]

15 hours ago, jaxom said:

Let them move through enemy units and inflict mortal wounds.

Mortal Wounds suck as a mechanic though. Maybe half attacks at a reduced WS value?

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Question for folks. Bike Squads have been described as both recon units and line breakers. A variety of Phobos units and Scouts neatly fill in-game recon roles. Assuming no change in kit, or Sgt upgrades at best, how do Bikes achieve line breaker role without stepping on the toes of Assault Squads?

 

Back in the day I remember them more as a shooting unit, before they could be armed with chainswords. 

It was the Veterans on Bikes and the Command Squad on Bikes that could engage in melee and perform a line breaker type of role because they could hit hard enough. Normal Bikes were really only a tarpit in melee.

 

To be honest, I don't think Outriders are capable of being 'linebreakers'. Not unless the line is made up of Guard equivalent troops. They just don't have the mass of high strength weapons to do it, no matter what special rules they might get.

 

Linebreaker Bikes would need to be armed with high strength power weapons (lances, hammers, fists, etc.) To do that job, and probably some kind of Invulnerable save or fnp as well.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Mortal Wounds suck as a mechanic though. Maybe half attacks at a reduced WS value?

If it’s a reduced WS just give them full attacks.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 12/5/2024 at 12:53 PM, jaxom said:

Question for folks. Bike Squads have been described as both recon units and line breakers. A variety of Phobos units and Scouts neatly fill in-game recon roles. Assuming no change in kit, or Sgt upgrades at best, how do Bikes achieve line breaker role without stepping on the toes of Assault Squads?

In ‘real life’ a line breaker unit isn’t necessary a sledge hammer literally breaking an entire line like tanks are typically used for.

 

bikes are more like thunder run units.

a thunder run is a fast raid/attack that pierces an enemy line in one or more areas, allowing forces to strike deep into the enemy’s heart forcing the enemy to withdraw to address the new threat, or the thunder run can loop back around hitting front line enemy units in the rear thus breaking the lines.

 

edit

for better understanding of the concept of a thunder run look at the battle for Baghdad and the counter offensive Kharkiv

 

basically, the bikes would pierce through the lines to attack major command or supply bases, forcing the enemy to collapse back to try to keep up or surround them, or the bikes pierce through the lines in one or two places a mile or two, then they turn around and envelope the enemy lines hitting them in the rear, while infantry and other slower less mobile forces attack from the front, and thus breaking the enemy’s lines.

 

as for in game, I’d say that you just treat them as slightly less melee killy assault squads, but more durable and slightly more shooty.

Edited December 11, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

26 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

In ‘real life’ a line breaker unit is necessary a sledge hammer literally breaking an entire line like tanks are typically used for.

 

bikes are more like thunder run units.

a thunder run is a fast raid/attack that pierces an enemy line in one or more areas, allowing forces to strike deep into the enemy’s heart forcing the enemy to withdraw to address the new threat, or the thunder run can loop back around hitting front line enemy units in the rear thus breaking the lines.

 

That's why I think my "move through enemy units to deal wounds" works under that idea. Then they can, on their next turn, charge and tarpit.

 

It breaks a single point in the line (aka deal some damage) while continuing momentum (moving through the enemy) while doing something no other unit really does (Jump infantry can go over but then that's kinda it).

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

That's why I think my "move through enemy units to deal wounds" works under that idea. Then they can, on their next turn, charge and tarpit.

 

It breaks a single point in the line (aka deal some damage) while continuing momentum (moving through the enemy) while doing something no other unit really does (Jump infantry can go over but then that's kinda it).

As was said earlier the whole causing wounds just because fly over, or go near an enemy isn’t a great mechanic.

 

maybe advance and charge, and then being able to move through a unit, and no fight back on the charge would be a more appropriate mechanic, and as mentioned before instead of WS3+ make them hit on WS4+  but id add +1 AP or+1 S both representing the momentum of just driving through 

 

so if you announce that you’re using their special rule, they can advance, charge, fight without fight back at WS4+ and +1 S( I’ve decided that feels more appropriate) and then can move 3” beyond the enemy unit.

 

it gives them massive mobility, without getting bogged down, but still being able to do some damage.

 

even that I’m not sold on. This might be an in universe role that shouldn’t be brought to table top because there really isn’t a good way to do so. A game could be an entire skirmish or small focused portion of a battle, so the game being played could represent the initial contact, contact at a second line of defense, the main attack on an enemy strong point after bypassing defensive lines, or the 180 for the envelopment. The game itself is simply too small to properly represent a thunder run on the table top.

Edited December 5, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If it’s a reduced WS just give them full attacks.

Nah, because nobody is going to be that accurate. After all, when you hit mailboxes with your baseball bat, you're not the one driving. 

 

Either way, no on Mortal Wounds. No, I don't care if some other units do it, because MAYBE they shouldn't either. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nah, because nobody is going to be that accurate. After all, when you hit mailboxes with your baseball bat, you're not the one driving. 

 

Either way, no on Mortal Wounds. No, I don't care if some other units do it, because MAYBE they shouldn't either. 

Then reduce the WS to 5+
but we’re also not super human warriors…

that being said pretty sure I could hit at least 50% of the mail boxes I see on my motorcycle at decent speed if I were so inclined.

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

As was said earlier the whole causing wounds just because fly over, or go near an enemy isn’t a great mechanic.

Just saying something doesn't make it true.  Mortal wounds from Grenades are considered one of the premier ways of dealing with certain units.  This is essentially moving grenades (But obviously a bit weaker since it doesn't cost anything).  I'm also fine with it being saveable wounds, but I think that's mostly just boring.

Edited December 6, 2024 by DemonGSides

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Just saying something doesn't make it true.  Mortal wounds from Grenades are considered one of the premier ways of dealing with certain units.  This is essentially moving grenades (But obviously a bit weaker since it doesn't cost anything).  I'm also fine with it being saveable wounds, but I think that's mostly just boring.

Considering it the premier way of dealing with certain units doesn’t make it a good mechanic. It just means it’s an easily abused mechanic…and it is.

 

mortal wounds should be extremely rare, and imho limited to only super heavy weapons or the top tier psychic powers.

[DemonGSides]

Right you're getting hung up on the mortal wounds so like I said, make it a saveable wound as they move through a unit.  It represents that line breaker you were mentioning in a way that isn't weird bookkeeping; it's essentially hammer of wrath, but instead of stopping and fighting then making a weird movement with no enemy response, you just do the damage right away and move through the unit.

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

Back in the day I remember them more as a shooting unit, before they could be armed with chainswords. 

It was the Veterans on Bikes and the Command Squad on Bikes that could engage in melee and perform a line breaker type of role because they could hit hard enough. Normal Bikes were really only a tarpit in melee.

 

To be honest, I don't think Outriders are capable of being 'linebreakers'. Not unless the line is made up of Guard equivalent troops. They just don't have the mass of high strength weapons to do it, no matter what special rules they might get

 

Yep, they were a nice, fast poke unit; especially when paired with an Attack Bike. Maybe the key for that role is always bring an ATV?

 

I think the latter is the problem a lot of the non-elite Space Marine units have. Dunno, maybe it takes something like the Liberator Assault Group plus a Sergeant with a special melee weapon to make them worth it for that role.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

36 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

Right you're getting hung up on the mortal wounds so like I said, make it a saveable wound as they move through a unit.  It represents that line breaker you were mentioning in a way that isn't weird bookkeeping; it's essentially hammer of wrath, but instead of stopping and fighting then making a weird movement with no enemy response, you just do the damage right away and move through the unit.

Yes people get hung up on mortal wounds because they’re a stupid mechanic to be handing out wily nilly to units.

[AutumnEffect]

3 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I think the latter is the problem a lot of the non-elite Space Marine units have. Dunno, maybe it takes something like the Liberator Assault Group plus a Sergeant with a special melee weapon to make them worth it for that role.

 

It's because Space Marines are never lacking in Str 4 swings so a unit that only puts out Str 4 swings, even a lot of them, has limited value.

 

Outriders want to be a hybrid unit with the speed and melee of Assault Intercessors and the toughness and shooting of Heavy Intercessors. If they had a different special rule or their guns were Assault they could kinda make it work.

 

IMO their best place is in Firestorm where they get Assault and Str 5 at 12" but none of that detachment's strats gel with them at all.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Guess i had some good timing on this thread lol.

 

do you guys think the melee boosts are enough?

[redmapa]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Guess i had some good timing on this thread lol.

 

do you guys think the melee boosts are enough?

 

I think so, Outriders shouldn't be a great unit but they  should be good enough and right now I think they can be a good unit to throw into objectives to clear chaff early in the game, clog up enemy movement and dealing some incidental damage to more valuable units, on paper they are a very good unit that can buy time for your actual damage dealing units whereas before they were worse assault intercessors.

 

Now all we are missing is Vets on bikes or at least Company Heroes on bikes.

[AutumnEffect]

 

Since the powers that be decided Outriders are a melee unit I think they have some play now in Stormlance which is nice. They have solid access to +1 to wound on two units, one with a Chaplain and another from the Shock Assault strat. Strength 5 with +1 to wound is some nice break points, wounding toughness 4 on 2+.

[Karhedron]

I think they also have some play for Blood Angels in a Liberator Assault group. 80 points for 15 S7 AP-1 2D attacks is not bad at all.

[Orange Knight]

I FINALLY found the text in the errata showing the update to the Outriders. I don't understand why it's randomly listed next to some individual character changes.

 

That being said, it's a significant boost and the unit is now really solid. For an 80 point, fast moving squad to deliver so much damage on the charge is great.

 

Imo, they just need character support now. We need an Outrider Captain model asap. This would go a long way towards making White Scars more thematically viable also.

[AutumnEffect]

23 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Imo, they just need character support now. We need an Outrider Captain model asap. This would go a long way towards making White Scars more thematically viable also.

 

I think there still needs to be some kind of 'elite' bike unit, an analog to Shining Spears, for the concept of a bike army to be complete. This is a step in the right direction though.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

I think there still needs to be some kind of 'elite' bike unit, an analog to Shining Spears, for the concept of a bike army to be complete. This is a step in the right direction though.

 

Take DA's Ravenwing Knights and file the chapter icons off.

That's what a "Veteran Outriders" unit would probably look like.

[AutumnEffect]

2 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Take DA's Ravenwing Knights and file the chapter icons off.

That's what a "Veteran Outriders" unit would probably look like.

 

I'll take it.

 

Tempted to just say ---- it and run very pale Ravenwing.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Imo, they just need character support now. We need an Outrider Captain model asap. This would go a long way towards making White Scars more thematically viable also.

 

I built this guy in 9th but he has been sitting in the car park for 10th.

 

[Dr. Clock]

This'll do nicely.

 

Early game trading/screening unit with a decent damage bump if used as intended. Plus in Stormlance even leaving some survivors won't stop them getting the charge bump every turn.

 

I was keeping a unit around for pure positioning and theme, but I'll go back to 2x3 in every list with these changes. Still not quite ready to give them an attached character just due to the footprint and difficulty connecting with 7 of those bases at a time(!), but Kor'sarro is actually going to show up now to make them that extra bit stickier.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor

[Tacitus]

On 12/5/2024 at 11:27 AM, AutumnEffect said:

 

Back in the day I remember them more as a shooting unit, before they could be armed with chainswords. 

It was the Veterans on Bikes and the Command Squad on Bikes that could engage in melee and perform a line breaker type of role because they could hit hard enough. Normal Bikes were really only a tarpit in melee.

 

To be honest, I don't think Outriders are capable of being 'linebreakers'. Not unless the line is made up of Guard equivalent troops. They just don't have the mass of high strength weapons to do it, no matter what special rules they might get.

 

Linebreaker Bikes would need to be armed with high strength power weapons (lances, hammers, fists, etc.) To do that job, and probably some kind of Invulnerable save or fnp as well.

Not all lines wear power armor or better - and "Assault Marines" took a pretty large hit to line breaking as well when they crossed the rubicon and forgot their Eviscerators.  This edition is pretty much a lost rotation because of the basic value changes.  S/T Band changes have thrown a pretty hefty monkey wrench into a lot of units as their general purpose gets thrown out of whack because they can't do what they're supposed to anymore.   I'm hoping next edition adds/updates a number of units with rules/wargear/stats to counter this loss after they've had more observation.  Melee Tank killing.  Melta vs Armor.  Armies that don't have a lascanon to get to S12+  etc.