Final Balance update of 2024

[Osteoclast]

3 hours ago, StrangerOrders said:

Can someone better at math than me tell me how scary a 10 man Intercessor squad led by a Libi with that Fussilade Enhancement from that Conclave detachment be?

 

I feel like it could be hilariously lethal but I'm not sure.

 

Using UnitCrunch, and assuming pyromancy for sustained hits 1, I get 2 dead Marines (8 wounds dealt, 4 saved),  4 with target elimination active (17 wounds dealt). Against a T12/2+ vehicle/monster, that's it's 8 dealt, 3 go through, or 17 dealt, 5 go through. Oath of moment standing still target elimination is 26W/9D on tank, 36W/18D vs Marines.

 

For comparison, a Centurion dev squad (with grav cannons) is only 5 points more than the 10 man intercessors (60 less than unit with librarian), does 10W/8 damage with three dead MEQ, (16W/9D/4 morte in half-range),  14/14/5 with oath of moment, and does 10W/6D (11W/7D OOM) vs a land raider.

Edited December 12 by Osteoclast

[Marshal Rohr]

Will this be the final balance patch for a while or will we be getting the New Years balance patch in two weeks?

[DemonGSides]

16 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Will this be the final balance patch for a while or will we be getting the New Years balance patch in two weeks?

 

They mentioned another update in January to at least fix the things they messed up with this one, but I wouldn't expect another substantial change in less than 3 months, probably closer to 6.

Another round of points changes in 3 months probably.

[Emperor Ming]

So it will be changing in 25 they say in that article

 

From 4 quarterly mfm updates, two of which include rules updates/changes

 

in 25 they will all be mfm+rules changes

 

In summery: more rules changes for the problem factions/units

[Borbarad]

Lovely to see the Vertus Praetors going back to their old strength 

[Orange Knight]

9 hours ago, Deus_Ex_Machina said:

Every Terminator should have a heavy weapon?! Their iconic loadout will never be changed. Better to choose another unit to fulfil your needs.

 

Probably not. And they will continue to be a niche unit in perpetuity unless big changes are made. Right now they are cheap and don't even feel elite.

7 hours ago, Nephaston said:

Devastator Terminators when GW? YOU COWARDS!

 

They exist in the Horus Heresy and that game is just fine lol

[phandaal]

On 12/11/2024 at 5:57 AM, Evil Eye said:

Said it before, will say it again. GW need to either write the rules well enough that they don't NEED a thousand adjustments every year, or else farm the rules writing out to someone who can.

 

40k is just trying to be a game for different kinds of people with wildly different approaches to gaming, and one thing this means is that paper rules are obsolete before they even hit the shelves.

 

Once the company decides what 40k actually is as a game nowadays, the rules might stabilize enough for physical media to be more relevant.

 

Edit - also, obligatory remark about phased codex roll-outs.

 

Edited December 12 by phandaal

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, phandaal said:

 

40k is just trying to be a game for different kinds of people with wildly different approaches to gaming, and one thing this means is that paper rules are obsolete before they even hit the shelves.

 

Once the company decides what 40k actually is as a game nowadays, the rules might stabilize enough for physical media to be more relevant.

 

Edit - also, obligatory remark about phased codex roll-outs.

 

No, the problem is just not embracing digital rules. Grotmas detachments are getting a good reception for a reason. 

[Evil Eye]

Just now, HeadlessCross said:

No, the problem is just not embracing digital rules. Grotmas detachments are getting a good reception for a reason. 

See my prior remark. Wargaming is an analogue medium and diving into the murky depths of live-service nonsense is a bad, bad move. Hell, it barely works for videogames, which are a digital medium.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

See my prior remark. Wargaming is an analogue medium and diving into the murky depths of live-service nonsense is a bad, bad move. Hell, it barely works for videogames, which are a digital medium.

Bad move for who?

[phandaal]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

No, the problem is just not embracing digital rules. Grotmas detachments are getting a good reception for a reason. 

 

This has nothing to do with my post.

[Rhavien]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

See my prior remark. Wargaming is an analogue medium and diving into the murky depths of live-service nonsense is a bad, bad move. Hell, it barely works for videogames, which are a digital medium.

There is really not that much on this world which is set in stone and even stone is not eternal. Unfortunately Tzeentch is right in the regard, that everything is under constant change. Even our beloved hobby. 

Whilst I also think that all those changes are a bit much, our group mostly struggles because all those changes are spread across several publications and pdfs. You find crucial info in rules commentary, codex erretas, balance updates and tournament pack publications.

 

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

See my prior remark. Wargaming is an analogue medium and diving into the murky depths of live-service nonsense is a bad, bad move. Hell, it barely works for videogames, which are a digital medium.

 

I think definitively stating that "Wargaming" is any one specific thing is pretty arrogant.

Also I don't think going digital means it's a live service game.  Those are two very different things.

Edited December 12 by DemonGSides

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

live service

Indeed... digital updates to written games are a far cry from essentially making a computer program do all or most of the 'work' of the game. 'Live service 40k' to me would basically be somewhere between Battle Sector and TTS as a computer game, but still charging people for every unit separately, and not being able to play without active internet... There is very little risk in the near term of GW going that route as a producer/publisher IMO.

 

As a game, 40k is mechanically so simple that it would be relatively easy to convert it into a 'live service turn-based strategy game' (which see above has kinda happened to an extent already). But the hobby is not the game. GW has, despite foibles and missteps certainly, effectively established a strong positive network externality of all the minis in people's collections. I don't buy because it's new, I buy because it adds to what I already bought. Until they don't sell minis, they have not 'gone digital live service'.

 

Going pure digital is thus the death of that physical asset network, and that's just not a good idea. The previous GW regime understood this too well: they make miniatures, not games. They don't make their money from the books, nor the app; they make some money on those offerings, but it's nothing in comparison to the margin and longevity of their physical productions in plastic. They learned their lesson from the Ultramarines movie in the negative, and basically Dawn of War in the positive: you make more money on back-end license deals than you do from trying to 'diversify' beyond your existing channel. This is not least because the existing strong vertical they've established is too narrow to give them much goodwill or awareness, or indeed any expertise in markets not yet reached. Maybe one day... But the glut of good GW computer games in the last few years is all upside as far as I'm concerned.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Evil Eye]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Bad move for who?

Literally everyone? We've seen how GW handles digital rules and it sucks. Furthermore, full digital rules would allow GW to effectively pull the plug entirely on an edition once they decided they no longer wished to support it. With physical media, GW can't take the book away once you own it. I can still play 4th edition with second-hand books, or scans thereof. If GW decided to go full digital for 11th, then each time they "patch" it the prior iteration of the game would be lost unless someone archived the rules; and if the new iteration is worse than the old one, you're screwed.

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

Literally everyone? We've seen how GW handles digital rules and it sucks. Furthermore, full digital rules would allow GW to effectively pull the plug entirely on an edition once they decided they no longer wished to support it. With physical media, GW can't take the book away once you own it. I can still play 4th edition with second-hand books, or scans thereof. If GW decided to go full digital for 11th, then each time they "patch" it the prior iteration of the game would be lost unless someone archived the rules; and if the new iteration is worse than the old one, you're screwed.

 

Their rules are digital now and downloadable.

If you yearn for release 10th edition, you can play that.  I wouldn't suggest it, it was pretty rough.  But it's possible.  I can't see how that goes away any time soon; they know not everyone's going to bring a tablet to the table always, so they'll have printable rules and physical rules probably always.  I just think they should put digital first, paperback second for rules.

I still bring my BRB to every game, even if I don't crack it.  I'm not opposed to analog.  But if they went whole hog with digital and made the rules more open (IE; being able to see ALL datasheets so that you could check them at any time regardless of codex ownership, and then tie list building into codex ownership or something like that), that'd be pretty swell.

This current half and half stuff really sucks.

Edited December 13 by DemonGSides

[Rhavien]

I would assume, that the majority of the players is indeed only interested in the current rules. That means few people would care if they'd pull the pug from older stuff. Heck, they could even sell those old stuff as legend-rules or something. Opposed to books, which have to be printed and stored, those pdfs only need some tiny disk space to keep them. 

 

But on topic: is anyone else concerned that the spiral of death is in full motion again? Looking at space Marines, everything got more lethal. How about the other factions? I don't have a good enough grasp of other factions. Could anyone share a thought? 

[Karhedron]

48 minutes ago, Rhavien said:

But on topic: is anyone else concerned that the spiral of death is in full motion again? Looking at space Marines, everything got more lethal. How about the other factions? I don't have a good enough grasp of other factions. Could anyone share a thought? 

 

Reminds me of 8th edition when Marines were the first Codex out and were rapidly overshadowed by later releases. Then the Marine 8.5E Codex came out with an entirely new layer of buffs in the form of Doctrines to counter Marines supposed-weakness. At least this time the update is free. 

[Mogger351]

1 hour ago, Rhavien said:

I would assume, that the majority of the players is indeed only interested in the current rules. That means few people would care if they'd pull the pug from older stuff. Heck, they could even sell those old stuff as legend-rules or something. Opposed to books, which have to be printed and stored, those pdfs only need some tiny disk space to keep them. 

 

But on topic: is anyone else concerned that the spiral of death is in full motion again? Looking at space Marines, everything got more lethal. How about the other factions? I don't have a good enough grasp of other factions. Could anyone share a thought? 

I'm unsure on the spiral, marines getting a slight pulling up by their bootstraps will hopefully be an outlier.

 

If one army is vastly under performing at a fundamental level, then correcting that one army is the right course of action imo.

 

To me the biggest tell is they're realising that snowflake chapters simply getting more needs a foil.

[Dark Shepherd]

40 minutes ago, Mogger351 said:

I'm unsure on the spiral, marines getting a slight pulling up by their bootstraps will hopefully be an outlier.

 

If one army is vastly under performing at a fundamental level, then correcting that one army is the right course of action imo.

 

To me the biggest tell is they're realising that snowflake chapters simply getting more needs a foil.

At least this time I dont think we will get a second marine dex

 

I think the lesson they should learn is that the non-codex chapters should be locked to detachments from their supplements

 

Less obvious lesson is named characters for likes of Salamanders, Fists should be so good that theyre super duper auto includes IMO

Edited December 13 by Lord_Ikka

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, Rhavien said:

But on topic: is anyone else concerned that the spiral of death is in full motion again? Looking at space Marines, everything got more lethal. How about the other factions? I don't have a good enough grasp of other factions. Could anyone share a thought? 

 

Space Marines do tend to struggle and flag really hard mid-edition. It's a pretty consistent pattern.

 

My theory is that because they are so prevalent (the number of 40k players who don't have a Space Marine army of some kind I think is a dramatically small percentage) counters to them develop quickly, and because they are the baseline against which everything else is compared to, the units in other factions swiftly move past them.

 

It has something to do with them being the game's yardstick, though it's tough for me to put my finger on precisely what it is.

 

But it's also a bit of a different situation than in 8th. This update is a direct response to the unforeseen consequences of the divergent chapters getting so much and several of the weaker and underutilized units in the army getting a buff. I don't think the gains to Reivers, Outriders and Intercessors will shake things up at top tables. It's more a quality of life change for the casual player who wants to use those units.

Edited December 13 by AutumnEffect

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Dark Shepherd said:

At least this time I dont think we will get a second marine dex

We may not be getting a second codex, but Valrak did say that Space Marines are getting "a lot of equal opportunity cake" in response to a rumour engine earlier this month.

So Marines may still be getting a bunch of random new stuff along with these updates later down the line of 10th..

[Dr. Clock]

Also worth reminding ourselves that this is a replacement for the wound re-rolls on Oath that we started the edition with... But also it's not quite as good as that was.

 

If anything the 'substantial change to marines' sign here to me signals that this is truly '10.6' territory, not to say '10.8' which is the point at which we start to get Codexes that are clearly written with 11th in mind, and are thus DOA or just not worth paying attention to depending on whether they re-index or not within 6 months of release.

 

I, for one, hope that they don't re-index 11th if only to avoid the ill will that follows from spending on rules in last 6 months of an edition to have them disappear entirely so fast. It doesn't super matter if the rules are 'free' again just after purchases like WE and Votann were last time if all the interest and colour from the more detailed options are stripped out of the faction after less than a year of use. So I guess we're like 12 months from possibly being wise to stop buying any codexes for the edition??

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[HeadlessCross]

8 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

I don't think the gains to Reivers, Outriders and Intercessors will shake things up at top tables. 

I agree on Outriders because they're just on too big of bases. However, Reivers and Intercessors gained a LOT that I think more Lists will incorporate them. For example, with the new Deep Strike limit of being able to get to 6" max, Infiltrators become a lot less important and, as a result, you can easily make the switch to the more offensive Intercessors. 

 

Meanwhile, I think most lists are going to try and make use of at least one squad of Reivers + Phobos Lieutenant now. The additional AP-1 on their knives alone made them look decent, and now they can steal an objective AND make a Deep Strike charge pretty easily. 

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Dark Shepherd said:

At least this time I dont think we will get a second marine dex

 

I think the lesson they should learn is that the non-codex chapters should be locked to detachments from their supplements

 

Less obvious lesson is named characters for likes of Salamanders, Fists should be so good that theyre super duper auto includes IMO

You realize your fix only applies to current Dark Angels, right? Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and Black Templars players, even competitively, are content with their Index detachments (I know Blood Angels has a couple more but...let's be real).