New changes from the Balance dataslate discussion?

[Galron]

So what do you guys think?

+1 to wound for codex marines and divergent detachments with non-divergent specific units in them against oath targets.

Outriders getting big buffs on the charge

sternguard getting the reroll wounds on the oath target(maybe they already had that)

Buff to several named characters and OC

 

nerf to the 3" thing for inceptors(only ever used it once to jump an objective though)

price went up on scouts, sterngaurd and infernus

down on inceptors

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Links are always nice 

[Karhedron]

Interesting changes. The army-wide +1 to Wound is a really strong buff for giving up Chapter-specific units.

Outriders really needed a buff and this looks like it delivers. Put them in Blood Angels detachment and suddenly an 80 point squad delivers 15 S7 Ap-1 2D attacks on the charge. Not too shabby at all.

Sternguard pay for their upgrade while Intercessors get their firepower doubled for no cost. Sadly Sternguard remain obsolete while Intercessors are so good.

Inceptors are fine. I usually prefer to deploy them on the table anyway so they can be shooting from T1.

[jaxom]

35 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Links are always nice 

https://assets.warhammer-community.com/eng_warhammer40000_balance_dataslate_december_2024-6zq9ektkkl-l1vgzqlgub.pdf
 

I have thoughts, but the long text will have to wait until after work.

[Galron]

I still think Sternguard are pretty decent. With their dev wounds and now rerolling to wound on the oath target. Might as well roll, get your devs and then just reroll everything fishing for 6s when it matters. I face a lot of big bugs and vehicles lately though. Intercessors might be able to put out 3 shots each at close range but they will only be wounding that same target on 5s with no dev wounds or rerolls adding to it. Not bad for a sticky battleline unit but not too exciting. I think this change pushes Sternguard closer to Hellblasters in usefulness and I am planning for both in my Vanguard list. 

 

The question was brought up on Facebook, Liberator Assault Group but no BA specific units, so you run it as a codex army but get the big bonus to charging and the +1 to wound on the oath. I actually like the jump pack one so the same thing applies, just for that one, sadly the nerf to the 3" deep strike kills the 10 man vanguard vets with melta pistols build(or does it?)

[DemonGSides]

2 minutes ago, Galron said:

I still think Sternguard are pretty decent. With their dev wounds and now rerolling to wound on the oath target. Might as well roll, get your devs and then just reroll everything fishing for 6s when it matters. I face a lot of big bugs and vehicles lately though. Intercessors might be able to put out 3 shots each at close range but they will only be wounding that same target on 5s with no dev wounds or rerolls adding to it. Not bad for a sticky battleline unit but not too exciting. I think this change pushes Sternguard closer to Hellblasters in usefulness and I am planning for both in my Vanguard list. 

 

The question was brought up on Facebook, Liberator Assault Group but no BA specific units, so you run it as a codex army but get the big bonus to charging and the +1 to wound on the oath. I actually like the jump pack one so the same thing applies, just for that one, sadly the nerf to the 3" deep strike kills the 10 man vanguard vets with melta pistols build(or does it?)

 

 

I think it works that way RAW, but definitely flies in the spirit of the change to OoM.  Kinda hard to argue that you aren't a BA army if you're using a BA detatchments; if they want to decouple the BA theming from the detatchments and let them be used everywhere that's fine, but how would you even start to use Lost Bretheren?

 

I expect that loophole to get closed one way or the other zo don't get too used to if. Also our special characters are half the reason to run BA, so is it worth slightly better rolling to get rid of big bombs like Mephiston or the various DC combos or Dante and the SG?

 

[Galron]

I like the jump pack detachment. It should have been a CSM detachment to begin with. Just like drop pods should be cheaper dedicated transports, a force of marines descending on jump packs from the open doors of thunderhawks, storm eagles, and ravens is a very visually iconic delivery system. 

[Karhedron]

25 minutes ago, Galron said:

Intercessors might be able to put out 3 shots each at close range but they will only be wounding that same target on 5s with no dev wounds or rerolls adding to it. Not bad for a sticky battleline unit but not too exciting.

 

Actually Intercessors now put out 4 shots at all ranges. Their Bolt Rifles are straight up better than Stormbolters now. Even a 5-man squad is putting out 20 shots. They may lack Dev Wounds or native rerolls but sometimes quantity has a quality all of its own!

  

25 minutes ago, Galron said:

The question was brought up on Facebook, Liberator Assault Group but no BA specific units, so you run it as a codex army but get the big bonus to charging and the +1 to wound on the oath. I actually like the jump pack one so the same thing applies, just for that one, sadly the nerf to the 3" deep strike kills the 10 man vanguard vets with melta pistols build(or does it?)

 

That is correct, LAG is not inherently tied to BAs. In fact I suspect this was the reason they changed the name from Sons of Sanguinius, so that vanilla Chapters could use it to represent any fast melee-orientated Chapter. We will have to see if it is a loophole or a feature. Personally I think it may be intentional as there has been a lot of criticism (not unjustified) that the special Chapters were basically Marines+1 as there was no drawback to all the extra units since they could all access the basic 7 codex Detachments.

 

Out of interest, what rules allowed VanVets to Deep Strike 3" away previously? I normally run 5 Inferno Pistols and 5 Stormshields so that they can tangle with big targets at a pinch.

[Galron]

Theres a 3" strat in the Angelic Host detachment from what I remember. I could be mistaken but I remember looking into it a while back. There it is, Descent of Angels. Typical 3" Deep Strike strat. Obviously was nerfed to 6"

Edited December 11 by Galron

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Seems to me heavy bolt rifles might see more play now they got the damage boost.

1 hour ago, Galron said:

I like the jump pack detachment. It should have been a CSM detachment to begin with. Just like drop pods should be cheaper dedicated transports, a force of marines descending on jump packs from the open doors of thunderhawks, storm eagles, and ravens is a very visually iconic delivery system. 

Changing the name doesn’t take away the tie to BA when it’s literally in the BA codex, but yes marines painted any color can use it.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

That is correct, LAG is not inherently tied to BAs. In fact I suspect this was the reason they changed the name from Sons of Sanguinius, so that vanilla Chapters could use it to represent any fast melee-orientated Chapter. We will have to see if it is a loophole or a feature. Personally I think it may be intentional as there has been a lot of criticism (not unjustified) that the special Chapters were basically Marines+1 as there was no drawback to all the extra units since they could all access the basic 7 codex Detachments.

54 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

yes marines painted any color can use it.

Effectively what the new rule currently does is make players choose their +1 regardless of their choice of detachment. One either gets specialized units or the OoM upgrade.

 

The C:SM chapters benefit more because they don’t have characters locked into a Supplement and seem to have skimmed under the radar because of it. Or maybe the changes to the named characters is to make the more representative of Company-specific captains for count-as?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

14 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Effectively what the new rule currently does is make players choose their +1 regardless of their choice of detachment. One either gets specialized units or the OoM upgrade.

 

The C:SM chapters benefit more because they don’t have characters locked into a Supplement and seem to have skimmed under the radar because of it. Or maybe the changes to the named characters is to make the more representative of Company-specific captains for count-as?

I already understood the new rule, didn’t need an explanation 

[jaxom]

@Inquisitor_Lensoven My apologies, I’ll stop attempting to include you in the larger conversation as it appears it just comes across as condescension. 

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Effectively what the new rule currently does is make players choose their +1 regardless of their choice of detachment. One either gets specialized units or the OoM upgrade.

 

The C:SM chapters benefit more because they don’t have characters locked into a Supplement and seem to have skimmed under the radar because of it. Or maybe the changes to the named characters is to make the more representative of Company-specific captains for count-as?

 

I think you nailed it; the chapter masters are there to help inject a lil more of the factions flavor into those chapters that aren't given the divergent treatment without requiring a bunch of loopholes to make it work. I think it's rather elegant for the way the game is currently set up.

 

If you wanna play Salamanders, taking Firestorm with He'Stan somewhere in the mix will feel suitably fluffy. But if you want some of that fluff while also playing an armored fist of Salamanders, you can slot HeStan in if you want to still bring some flamers without losing out on everything. 

[L30n1d4s]

Sternguard led by a Libby in the new Librarious Conclave (with the "Fussilade" enhancement) are going to be fire!

 

If you choose Pyromancy they gain -1AP within 12" for their shooting and Sustained Hits (1). On top of this, they get Anti-Monster 5+/Anti-Vehicle 5+ from the enhancement for their shooting.

 

If you tag a target with +1 to hit (Incursors) and use OoM on it, they should be able to get around 36 hits, all at S4 AP-2 Dmg1, Devastating Wounds. With full rerolls to Wound, combined with the Libbys shoting, this is more than enough to devastate most infantry units and, against T8+ Monsters/Vehicles, they average about 18 Devastating Wounds (i.e. enough to One Shot a C'Tan, even with its FNP saves). Similarly, against a Land Raider this unit would average around 18-19 unsaved wounds, so killing it in one round of shooting.

 

Anyway, I think Sternguard have a new lease on life here, especially in the Librarious Conclave detachment.

Edited December 11 by L30n1d4s

[Indy Techwisp]

I would argue that the Divergent Chapters still technically being able to use the +1 to wound OoM if they don't take any of their unique units is a misreading.

 

More specifically, the wording is that you cannot have the +1 if you have any [Divergent Chapter] keyword units.

While this may seem like you're fine if you just don't take Killteams/Death Company/Ravenwing Knights or whatever, if you're using a [Divergent] Detachment from a Supplement you need to meet the requirements for that Detachment, which makes your army a [Divergent] army and thus your faction keyword is the [Divergent] keyword.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As a Gravis player, I'm more excited about the HINT weapon changes and Feirros' command buff.  I've been using 15 of them for objective holding and was considering moving up to 20, so getting an OC boost and more damage out out the HBRs and more accuracy out of the heavy bolters and +1 to wound against an Oath target?  It's like Christmas came early.

[Karhedron]

My HINTS have consistently performed well defensively. Now they will be able to contribute a bit more damage too! 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

33 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

My HINTS have consistently performed well defensively. Now they will be able to contribute a bit more damage too! 

I still can’t believe mine repelled VGV attacking, and killed 2 of them in melee before he fell back.(why he did that I have no clue)

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I would argue that the Divergent Chapters still technically being able to use the +1 to wound OoM if they don't take any of their unique units is a misreading.

 

More specifically, the wording is that you cannot have the +1 if you have any [Divergent Chapter] keyword units.

While this may seem like you're fine if you just don't take Killteams/Death Company/Ravenwing Knights or whatever, if you're using a [Divergent] Detachment from a Supplement you need to meet the requirements for that Detachment, which makes your army a [Divergent] army and thus your faction keyword is the [Divergent] keyword.

I took a look and mechanically that's not how it plays out as far as I can tell. An FAQ  on intent would be nice though.

 

There's no Chapter faction requirement on the Supplement/Index Detachments for C:SM units. They state, "You can include [Chapter] units, but it cannot include any Adeptus Astartes units drawn from any other Chapter." Codex: Space Marines explains that the second Faction keyword on a Datasheet is the Chapter and you can't include units from more than one Chapter. Both make it clear there's no mixing-and-matching units with different second faction keywords, i.e. Chapters. C:SM Non-special characters units have no Chapter keyword and there's nothing in C:SM or the Supplements that suggests Space Marine units with only one Faction keyword (Adeptus Astartes) gain a second one ([Chapter]) if another unit in the army (i.e. special character) has a Chapter keyword. The Supplement/Index Detachments do not confer a second faction keyword either. A Liberator Assault Group made up purely of units from C:SM thus contains no units with the Blood Angels faction keyword.

 

The Ravenwing and Deathwing rules list C:SM units that gain the Ravenwing or Deathwing keywords (note: these are not faction keywords), "if they are drawn from the Dark Angels Chapter." The Designer's Note just states, "The rules presented in this section assume that the ADEPTUS ASTARTES units in your army are from the Dark Angels Chapter." Nothing explicitly says those units gain the Dark Angels faction keyword which would mechanically define their Chapter.

 

TL;DR: There's no current rules mechanic for giving C:SM units a Chapter faction keyword if they don't already have one written on their datesheet; however, CS:DA suggests there may be a design intent.

Edited December 11 by jaxom

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I would argue that the Divergent Chapters still technically being able to use the +1 to wound OoM if they don't take any of their unique units is a misreading.

 

More specifically, the wording is that you cannot have the +1 if you have any [Divergent Chapter] keyword units.

While this may seem like you're fine if you just don't take Killteams/Death Company/Ravenwing Knights or whatever, if you're using a [Divergent] Detachment from a Supplement you need to meet the requirements for that Detachment, which makes your army a [Divergent] army and thus your faction keyword is the [Divergent] keyword.

 

I'm not sure how it's a mis-reading.

As long as you don't take any specific Chapter units, you don't have any of those keywords.  The detatchments don't confer keywords, so the only thing making a Blood Angels army actually a Blood Angels army is if you take one of the epic heroes, or if you take a divergent unit, ie DC or SG or a Baal Predator or the ilk.

The big difference here is if you do Dark Angels, you just don't say you're a dark angels army; their army rules specifically state that if you draw specific units from the dark angels, they gain a special keyword.  You can get around this and use whatever you want with the additional Oath of Moment if you've got a stickler of an opponent by saying "These are the Dork Angels, sorry you must've misheard me.".

That being said, I think it's kinda weird and silly but I don't think it's busted.  I like the idea that all the detatchments for SM can be used by ALL space marines, but I think they should be a lot more direct about it instead of leaving it ambiguous like it is now.  You're already blocked from using the Divergent Detatchments with any Epic Heroes from other chapters (Each divergent detatchment says it HAS to be drawn from their specific chapter, easy to get around in most situations because even Blood Angels have a Blue painted successor), so not too much of a big deal to also let people use the bonus Oath if they're already sacrificing the mostly pushed Epic Heroes.

[CCE1981]

I am astounded that they massively buffed Infernus Marines and only gave them a marginal points increase.  I was already taking them to a huge effect on all my games, giving them +1 to wound and an AP value is HUGE, not to mention that I also coincidentally get more OC on them as well!

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I gotta say the +1 to wound just seems like another ham fisted ‘fix’

 

a S4 bolter or flamer now wounds a land raider or baneblade on a 5+? Just makes spamming low S weapons even more viable as an AT tactic.

 

how much damage can 10 HIs and gravis captain now realistically manage on a T10 vehicle?

how about T8&9?

 

im bad at math, but 10 wounds from 10 HIs w/ captain doesn’t seem unreasonable or unrealistic.

(also didn’t count rerolls for OoM)

 

edit

also realized i only accounted for 1 HB

Edited December 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Helias_Tancred]

1 hour ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I'm not sure how it's a mis-reading.

As long as you don't take any specific Chapter units, you don't have any of those keywords.  The detatchments don't confer keywords, so the only thing making a Blood Angels army actually a Blood Angels army is if you take one of the epic heroes, or if you take a divergent unit, ie DC or SG or a Baal Predator or the ilk.

The big difference here is if you do Dark Angels, you just don't say you're a dark angels army; their army rules specifically state that if you draw specific units from the dark angels, they gain a special keyword.  You can get around this and use whatever you want with the additional Oath of Moment if you've got a stickler of an opponent by saying "These are the Dork Angels, sorry you must've misheard me.".

That being said, I think it's kinda weird and silly but I don't think it's busted.  I like the idea that all the detatchments for SM can be used by ALL space marines, but I think they should be a lot more direct about it instead of leaving it ambiguous like it is now.  You're already blocked from using the Divergent Detatchments with any Epic Heroes from other chapters (Each divergent detatchment says it HAS to be drawn from their specific chapter, easy to get around in most situations because even Blood Angels have a Blue painted successor), so not too much of a big deal to also let people use the bonus Oath if they're already sacrificing the mostly pushed Epic Heroes.

 

Cheese. Pure. Cheese.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

This is such a lazy buff, they could have locked it to infantry, and vehicle keywords just like they did the lethal hits for guard, but that would have taken more than 3 seconds of thought.

Edited December 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven