New changes from the Balance dataslate discussion?

[DemonGSides]

55 minutes ago, Helias_Tancred said:

 

Cheese. Pure. Cheese.

 

I don't really see it as cheese as just an unintended side effect of their answer to "how do we handle divergence".  This way if you wanna run the more "stock" BA experience that MULTIPLE people here have wanted, there is an option, and you can also gain the benefit of OOM since you're not using specialist units.

If you wanna use the special toys, well, you gotta sacrifice something.  You get an ok army rule instead of a great one.  Which seems fair.

I just wish GW kept the mystery in the lore, as opposed to the game.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Intercessors with chainswords or knives are now wounding T10-11 on a 4+ on the charge if you’re using LAG

edit

so intercessor with a knife, wounding a leman Russ on a 4+ is ridiculous 

Edited December 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[tychobi]

So codex marines get a shot in the arm? Cool beans! Seems good. I'm scared of sternguard now

[AutumnEffect]

15 minutes ago, tychobi said:

So codex marines get a shot in the arm? Cool beans! Seems good. I'm scared of sternguard now

 

It's pretty nifty.

 

They do about a dozen Mortal Wounds with Combi-weapons to whatever infantry unit they target that's Oath of Moment and within Rapid Fire. If you're trying to liquidate something like Terminators this is pretty solid.

Edited December 12 by AutumnEffect

[Malakithe]

I wonder if my Sternguard Firestorm drop pod assault will work better now.

[Orange Knight]

I think that the boosted Oath for codex chapters is a nice rule. It's the 1st step in creating a more fair system of give and take.

 

At the moment, the divergent chapters simply take. They take their exclusive characters. They take their exclusive units. They take whatever detachment suits them best, lore be damned. They enjoy every benefit, they suffer no penalty. This is ultimately due to GW's inability to divide the rules and releases more fairly, but players will often take advantage of this as well. Just like the rich do their best to avoid paying tax, some hobbyists who benefit from preferential treatment for their chosen faction don't want to give anything up (lol this all sounds very dramatic).

 

I think the Oath change is pretty thematic, in a roundabout way. The codex is a very good tactical tool, and adhering to it more closely should offer some benefits and not just downsides.

I think they need to go further and lock the detachments away behind chapter keywords again, or restrict the divergent chapters from running anything from the core codex (they are divergent after all). If it was up to me, certain units would also be restricted if chapter exclusive alternatives are available. The Dark Angels have their Companions (a great looking and powerful unit), so they should probably lose access to the Bladeguard. Both units are close combat focused, tacticus-clad infantry taken in numbers between 3 and 6. I know people might like both, but the faction certainly doesn't NEED both.

 

The various unit buffs are really nice - intercessors, Heavy Intercessors and Outriders are really big winners. Sternguard can be strong in a particular detachment with Librarian support but I'm not overly interested in focusing down on very specific combos that may or may not exist in the medium to long run.

 

I think the updates are generally good. GW should spend some time on chapter range updates. The Space Wolves need a refresh, but some of the Codex chapters need some love as well. The Imperial and Crimson Fists, the White Scars, etc. Just a few more chapter specific character options would go a long way.

 

 

 

Edited December 12 by Orange Knight

[Brother Tyler]

On 12/11/2024 at 1:05 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

I already understood the new rule, didn’t need an explanation 

 

Sometimes information provided in a response isn't [just] targeted at the member to whom the person is responding. A statement might imply (or a member might infer) misunderstanding or incomplete understanding; or a statement might indicate the possibility that others might not fully understand something. So getting defensive when someone provides helpful information is not constructive and comes across as petulant. Instead, it's better to just let it go or even thank the member for the information because, while it might not be necessary for you, it might be helpful for other members of the community.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the updates are generally good. GW should spend some time on chapter range updates. The Space Wolves need a refresh, but some of the Codex chapters need some love as well. The Imperial and Crimson Fists, the White Scars, etc. Just a few more chapter specific character options would go a long way.

 

It would be really nice if they could provide each of the famous Chapters with some sort of signature unit. Maybe a veteran biker unit for Scars for example. If it is based on an existing MPK, it could probably be handled with just a modest upgrade sprue.

[Orange Knight]

35 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

It would be really nice if they could provide each of the famous Chapters with some sort of signature unit. Maybe a veteran biker unit for Scars for example. If it is based on an existing MPK, it could probably be handled with just a modest upgrade sprue.

 

I would love this so much, but I really don't think they'll go down this route. Even the Ultramarines don't have any unique units outside of their characters.

 

Character models are more realistic, and I think they are more collectible and probably sell better as a result. There are a few I can think of for each chapter.

 

-New Lysander

-Primaris Pedro Kantor

-Primaris Vulkan He'stan

-Outrider Khan for the White Scars

-A Sniper focused phobos characters for the Ravenguard

-A Tank Commander upgrade for the Iron Hands

And I guess Cato Sicarius will also cross the Rubicon lol

[Iron Father Ferrum]

A character Dreadnought is probably more appropriate than a tank commander for IH, but personally I'd take either one.

 

If we ever got a signature unit (as opposed to a character), we have examples of Helfather Terminators in lore already.  Just saying.

[Galron]

There is no reason why every chapter doesnt have access to Angelic Host. It is a basic and iconic form of Space Marine deployment since the Heresy. Some of the early pictures have dozens of marines jump packing out of Storm birds. Restricting it to just Blood Angels was stupid to begin with. Rules-wise only one strat really specifies a BA unit so you arent handicapping yourself in that respect. Its also not the most competitive detachment even in its own codex with its specific units.  Now the Liberation Assault Host with its miraculous "We are suddenly 50% stronger because we were assigned to X unit on the table of organization and equipment," nonsense and the obvious death company detachment, those should be blood angel only. 

 

Im for sure looking back to my firestorm drop pod list and seeing what if any changes can be made. They made the close range game much more viable with this detachment as well as the librarian detachment. 

 

 

[Moonstalker]

Big fan of the buff to Intercessors, it's a nice shout back to the Fury of the Legion rule that Tacticals have in HH.  Though it might get a little silly when combined with the new OoM buff.  The Fire Discipline nerf is probably warranted, but now I think it's overnerfed after the previous price hike.  Should've come down in points if they're gonna take away the 5+ crits.  I like that the Annihilator got some attention.  Not going to dethrone the Gladiator Lancer but it's something.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I would love this so much, but I really don't think they'll go down this route. Even the Ultramarines don't have any unique units outside of their characters.

 

Character models are more realistic, and I think they are more collectible and probably sell better as a result. There are a few I can think of for each chapter.

 

-New Lysander

-Primaris Pedro Kantor

-Primaris Vulkan He'stan

-Outrider Khan for the White Scars

-A Sniper focused phobos characters for the Ravenguard

-A Tank Commander upgrade for the Iron Hands

And I guess Cato Sicarius will also cross the Rubicon lol

Wasn’t VG a separate unit in previous editions?

[Galron]

They buffed Annihilators in the CSM because they buffed them in Chaos Marines since chaos doesnt have a Lancer so its just a nice benefit if you happen to be one of those rare people using them for Imperials instead of Ballistus dreads. I actually use them in my chaos armies. They are kind of a dark horse unit you dont see often that just sits back and moves and shoots lascannons down firing lanes while more pressing issues are being shot at.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I feel my disdain for the ‘everything can wound everything’ mechanic is stupid and breaks the game, and this hamfisted ‘fix’ just exacerbates it.

 

lets use a stormraven as an example.

id be willing to bet that the assault cannons average similar damage as the lascannons due to the 6 shots vs 1 shot.

 

Hitting on 3s you’ve got what? 3.5 hits from the assault cannons vs less than 1 for the lascannons?

wounding T11 on 4+ w/ rerolls isn’t bad at all. AP and damage is limiting sure, but still better than if you miss that one shot you have.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Moonstalker said:

 I like that the Annihilator got some attention.  Not going to dethrone the Gladiator Lancer but it's something.

 

I actuallt think the Annihilator is better against T11 and below as it has 3 shots to work with. T12+ the Lancer pulls ahead but the Annihilator is still good and 30 points cheaper .

[Moonstalker]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I actuallt think the Annihilator is better against T11 and below as it has 3 shots to work with. T12+ the Lancer pulls ahead but the Annihilator is still good and 30 points cheaper .

 

I think the Lancer takes the damage output per point overall (built-in rerolls are super good) across the board, but Predators offer better durability per point.  Their performance at killing T11- is similar, but Lancer still edges ahead over time.  Spike damage from an HK missile puts the Predator ahead for one turn.  At least, that's how it was.  If you Oath something now, with the full damage rerolls on the Annihilator and +1 to wound, the Annihilator might surpass the Lancer as long as it has Oath support.  But that's kind of what makes the Lancer king, is it doesn't need Oath support.

 

What may be more interesting is how it still holds up to a Destructor with LC sponsons in the anti-vehicle role when both have OoM.  6 shots of S9 AP-1 D3 with +1 to wound and reroll to hit vs a single S14 AP-3 Dd6+1 with +1 to wound, reroll wounds, reroll damage, and reroll to hit.

[HeadlessCross]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Intercessors with chainswords or knives are now wounding T10-11 on a 4+ on the charge if you’re using LAG

edit

so intercessor with a knife, wounding a leman Russ on a 4+ is ridiculous 

Yeah and in previous editions a Sarge with a Power Fist had a reasonable chance to just pop the vehicle in one go. I think I prefer your scenario. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

35 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Yeah and in previous editions a Sarge with a Power Fist had a reasonable chance to just pop the vehicle in one go. I think I prefer your scenario. 

Power fists were dedicated AT weapons back then. Made sense.

bolters realistically being able to do 4+ damage on heavy armor is asinine.

[HeadlessCross]

52 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Power fists were dedicated AT weapons back then. Made sense.

bolters realistically being able to do 4+ damage on heavy armor is asinine.

> Dude with mechanical Fist makes vehicle explode in one attack is fine

> Rocket propelled grenades should do not scratch a vehicle

 

Make it make sense 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

31 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

> Dude with mechanical Fist makes vehicle explode in one attack is fine

> Rocket propelled grenades should do not scratch a vehicle

 

Make it make sense 

If by rocket propelled grenades you mean like 19mm/.75 grenades with not even an ounce of bursting charge, with no shaped charge, then no a tiny rocket propelled grenade shouldn’t do much.

 

powerfists are as much ‘mechanical fists’ as power swords are just swords.

 

almost like the actual lore is important.

 

the US decided it’s 1.1” guns no longer had enough of an explosive charge to reliably down modern aircraft for the time…but you want a round that’s even smaller to be taking out armored vehicles?

 

edit

even if a power fists were just mechanical fists, have you seen what a pneumatic press can do? Not hard to imagine each digit of the fist being it’s own pneumatic press.

Edited December 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jaxom]

Is a burst charge for bullets/grenades mean the same thing as for fireworks? Like, it makes them go boom after the propellent has made them go vroom? 'Cause standard bolt rounds go boom after they go vroom.

 

 

As for the math: 10 Intercessors do 3.0 wounds to a Leman Russ with their forty shots [40*(2/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)]. For comparison, in HH, a Tactical Squad with a Veteran Sergeant with a powerfist+pistol and 9 Marines with Krak Grenades do 6.3 Hull Points to a Leman Russ in close combat [(4*(2/3)*(2/3))+(9*(1/2))] with a 1.5% chance of the Sergeant popping it in one go with a Penetrating Hit.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 minutes ago, jaxom said:

Is a burst charge for bullets/grenades mean the same thing as for fireworks? Like, it makes them go boom after the propellent has made them go vroom? 'Cause standard bolt rounds go boom after they go vroom.

 

 

As for the math: 10 Intercessors do 3.0 wounds to a Leman Russ with their forty shots [40*(2/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)]. For comparison, in HH, a Tactical Squad with a Veteran Sergeant with a powerfist+pistol and 9 Marines with Krak Grenades do 6.3 Hull Points to a Leman Russ in close combat [(4*(2/3)*(2/3))+(9*(1/2))] with a 1.5% chance of the Sergeant popping it in one go with a Penetrating Hit.

…a bottle rocket will probably have more explosives than a 19mm bolt round.(by weight)

even a 40mm anti-material grenade wouldn’t do much against the more well protected APCs and IFVs.

 

Edited December 12 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Medjugorje]

On 12/12/2024 at 2:11 AM, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't really see it as cheese as just an unintended side effect of their answer to "how do we handle divergence".  This way if you wanna run the more "stock" BA experience that MULTIPLE people here have wanted, there is an option, and you can also gain the benefit of OOM since you're not using specialist units.

If you wanna use the special toys, well, you gotta sacrifice something.  You get an ok army rule instead of a great one.  Which seems fair.

I just wish GW kept the mystery in the lore, as opposed to the game.

I think MArines are already a good army - they ´ve no need to change OoM. But it would be still okay if Ultramarines dont have access to it. So they have the most and best datasheets AND+1 to wound. So they are WAY beyond echa compliant AND non-compliant chapter.

[AutumnEffect]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

lets use a stormraven as an example.

id be willing to bet that the assault cannons average similar damage as the lascannons due to the 6 shots vs 1 shot.

 

Hitting on 3s you’ve got what? 3.5 hits from the assault cannons vs less than 1 for the lascannons?

wounding T11 on 4+ w/ rerolls isn’t bad at all. AP and damage is limiting sure, but still better than if you miss that one shot you have.

Both are pretty mediocre into T11 
 

Assault cannons:

Lascannons

Edited December 13 by AutumnEffect