New changes from the Balance dataslate discussion?

[AutumnEffect]

6 hours ago, jaxom said:

10 Intercessors do 3.0 wounds to a Leman Russ with their forty shots [40*(2/3)*(1/3)*(1/3)]. 

 

It's actually half that. A wound and a half. Leman Russ's don't really have anything to fear from baseline bolters.

 

40 Bolters

 

Trivia

It takes on average exactly 351 Bolter attacks to do all 13 wounds to a Leman Russ.

Edited December 13 by AutumnEffect

[jaxom]

6 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

…a bottle rocket will probably have more explosives than a 19mm bolt round.(by weight)

even a 40mm anti-material grenade wouldn’t do much against the more well protected APCs and IFVs.

 

Cool, can you explain more? I’m curious how sci-fi a bolt round would have be to blow a man in half when they are hit in the torso.

 

31 minutes ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

It's actually half that. A wound and a half. Leman Russ's don't really have anything to fear from baseline bolters.

 

40 Bolters

 

Trivia

It takes on average exactly 351 Bolter attacks to do all 13 wounds to a Leman Russ.

I was assuming the new OoM for +1 to wound and also just realized I left out the reroll to hit.

Edited December 13 by jaxom

[AutumnEffect]

11 minutes ago, jaxom said:

I was assuming the new OoM for +1 to wound and also just realized I left out the reroll to hit.

 

Ah, my bad. Missed the context. Yeah, they do 4 wounds under OoM.

 

I feel like the fact OoM is only going to apply to one enemy unit a turn gets glossed over. If people are seriously looking at bolters to be their 'go' weapon on an OoM target...
That's a weird game/army list.

 

I understand there is a discussion going on about how bolters could be perceived as 'too strong' under OoM compared to 'lore' or 'reality'.

But it's a special rule reflecting Space Marine battle tactics and targeting a unit. It isn't literally making your weapons stronger for +1 to wound or giving you more accurate targeting equipment to let you re-roll to hit.

Wanting to apply reality or physics to it is missing the forest for the trees.

Edited December 13 by AutumnEffect

[Indy Techwisp]

Touching on a Couple Things from here.

 

1) Divergent Chapters and their detachments/units.

I'll start by saying I don't think Divergent Chapters should be fully locked out of any of these (besides things for Lore reasons like Psykers for BT), rather I think each faction needs a "How much base LSM units cost" table that adjusts the points they need to pay it include those units.

For example, if Blood Angels are running the top tables with JPAIs, then their cost for JPAIs goes up, not the cost for all Marine factions.

As for Detachments, I think that Divergent Chapter Detachments should just make your army gain the chapter keyword, 'cause otherwise I'm expecting to see the Codex Marine OoM get nerfed next update because Divergent Detachments end up even stronger because of it, unique units be damned.

 

2) Codex Marine chapters getting more stuff.

This would be very nice, as it would go a long way to bringing everyone else in the codex up to par with Ultramarines.

That said, it would most likely be via characters rather than full units, even tho having at least one unique unit would be nice.

 

3) Bolters as... anti-tank weapons?

Canonically speaking, Bolters aren't the best as shooting into Armour.

But they can, and have been shown to do so in Lore.

Same as they're "not the best" at getting through Ceremite but they certainly still can.

Obviously some are better than others at this task too for example Inferno Bolts literally burning through Armour on impact, but for the most part you're shooting Rocket-Powered Burrowing Frag Grenades at stuff.

[jaxom]

Yeah, it's not going to be bolters and assault cannons that suddenly are punching up. Anti-tank becomes better and high rate of fire weapons usually don't have the AP to compete with them in taking out heavy/big units. I think it's plasma on Redemptors and flamestorm cannons on LR Redeemer that may actually have some interesting new break points to look at; especially if one can get them a re-roll to wound.

 

I think the Intercessor change helps most against exchanges against peer and near-peer infantry; especially with OoM while other units that are already wounding on 2s or threes target other things.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

11 hours ago, jaxom said:

Cool, can you explain more? I’m curious how sci-fi a bolt round would have be to blow a man in half when they are hit in the torso.

 

I was assuming the new OoM for +1 to wound and also just realized I left out the reroll to hit.

Exaggeration. But it takes a lot less to blow a man in half, than it takes to blow through armor.

but it all depends on the exact type of explosives.

1oz of TNT is much less powerful than 1oz of C4 for example.

 

point being though based on what we’ve seen in lore and in game the explosive compound in a bolt round isn’t powerful enough to blast a hole into thick armor. In fact the whole point of bolt rounds is to detonated inside of the target meaning the round itself must first penetrate the target for it be effective.

Edited December 13 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

12 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

 

Ah, my bad. Missed the context. Yeah, they do 4 wounds under OoM.

 

I feel like the fact OoM is only going to apply to one enemy unit a turn gets glossed over. If people are seriously looking at bolters to be their 'go' weapon on an OoM target...
That's a weird game/army list.

 

I understand there is a discussion going on about how bolters could be perceived as 'too strong' under OoM compared to 'lore' or 'reality'.

But it's a special rule reflecting Space Marine battle tactics and targeting a unit. It isn't literally making your weapons stronger for +1 to wound or giving you more accurate targeting equipment to let you re-roll to hit.

Wanting to apply reality or physics to it is missing the forest for the trees.

Bolters as go to? No.

but now HBs and HBRs with their multi wound profiles are much more effective.

how effective does a weapon need to be before it’s no longer doing ‘chip’ damage, and is doing ‘real’ meaningful damage to a target?

 

edit

with new OoM with HIs if they have the option to shoot a Russ with 2-6 wounds left or a squad of guardsmen, it seems a lot more profitable to shoot the Russ now, especially if there’s a captain with them.

Edited December 13 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

how effective does a weapon need to be before it’s no longer doing ‘chip’ damage, and is doing ‘real’ meaningful damage to a target?

That’s an excellent question and I don’t have a good answer other than gut-feeling.

 

5 HI with OoM can do about 2-4 wounds to the Russ, depending on how one does the math. It’s 1.6 wounds in total, but that’s 1.2 for the HBR and 0.4 for the HB so translating that into whole number damage is a pain. I consider that chip damage against a 13 Wound model.

 

Edit: I think Inquisitor Lensoven is correct if we start looking at things that more along the 2-4 W, T5-7, 3+ - 4+, axis of units.

Edited December 13 by jaxom

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

For example, if Blood Angels are running the top tables with JPAIs, then their cost for JPAIs goes up, not the cost for all Marine factions.

That doesn't work because it's due to a particular detachment. Would you argue the price should increase if Blood Angels players decided to run Angelic Host? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. 

Detachment rule is the problem, end of story. That Blood Angels get +2S instead of just +1S like World Eaters is a bit silly. 

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Bolters as go to? No.

but now HBs and HBRs with their multi wound profiles are much more effective.

how effective does a weapon need to be before it’s no longer doing ‘chip’ damage, and is doing ‘real’ meaningful damage to a target?

 

edit

with new OoM with HIs if they have the option to shoot a Russ with 2-6 wounds left or a squad of guardsmen, it seems a lot more profitable to shoot the Russ now, especially if there’s a captain with them.

Okay but they might still pour some rounds into the Guardsmen so they can take an objective. Also 6 damage? Please run the math on that before making the claim, please. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

That doesn't work because it's due to a particular detachment. Would you argue the price should increase if Blood Angels players decided to run Angelic Host? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. 

Detachment rule is the problem, end of story. That Blood Angels get +2S instead of just +1S like World Eaters is a bit silly. 

Okay but they might still pour some rounds into the Guardsmen so they can take an objective. Also 6 damage? Please run the math on that before making the claim, please. 

5 HIs and a captain only need the HB and MCHBR to get one attack through the armor save each. That’s not asking for all that much.

 

 

[jaxom]

46 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

5 HIs and a captain only need the HB and MCHBR to get one attack through the armor save each. That’s not asking for all that much.

By Saint Thorlock, this the last math I’ll do for this.

 

1.2 wounds after saves from HI with heavy rifles

0.4 wounds after saves from HB

0.3 wounds after saves from Gravis Captain with MCHBR

 

Applying basic significant figures, that’s… 2 damage.

 

Applying basic ranges that’s 2-6 damage weighted towards… 2 damage.

Maybe @AutumnEffect can give a more precise answer.

Edited December 13 by jaxom
Specified wounds after saves

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

22 minutes ago, jaxom said:

By Saint Thorlock, this the last math I’ll do for this.

 

1.2 wounds after saves from HI with heavy rifles

0.4 wounds after saves from HB

0.3 wounds after saves from Gravis Captain with MCHBR

 

Applying basic significant figures, that’s… 2 damage.

 

Applying basic ranges that’s 2-6 damage weighted towards… 2 damage.

Maybe @AutumnEffect can give a more precise answer.

Add them all together it’s 1.9 an easy round up to 2 attacks getting through 

[AutumnEffect]

1 hour ago, jaxom said:

Maybe @AutumnEffect can give a more precise answer.

 

The premis that seemed to start this discussion about the Heavy Intercessors was if it was more beneficial to have them shoot at a russ or a squad of guardsmen.

It doesn't matter how many wounds they do.

 

It will allways be more efficient to shoot something that does more than 1 damage at something that has more than 1 wound. 

 

A stock leman russ is basically 13 points per wound. A Guardsman is 6. This means a single failed save from the Leman Russ will cause 26 points of damage to the enemy army while the exact same failed wound, however easier it is to cause, would only get you 6 points (less than 1/4!). And that's without getting into how inefficient it would be on the attackers end to be using the combined points of a Captain and Heavy Intercessor Squad to be shooting at a 60 point unit of guardsmen, or considerations about the fact the guardsmen would probably do no damage to the intercessor squad if they live next turn while the leman russ certainly can.

 

If I had a unit armed with hopes, dreams and harsh language (which do have Devistating Wounds), I'd still have them target the half dead leman russ. The risks of it living and the reward of damaging it are exponentially greater than a squad of guardsmen.

 

I dont really find the example to be very illustrative of a point. I'll begrudgingly do the math if asked again but...

This example makes me tired.

 

Edited December 13 by AutumnEffect

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

By Saint Thorlock, this the last math I’ll do for this.

 

1.2 wounds after saves from HI with heavy rifles

0.4 wounds after saves from HB

0.3 wounds after saves from Gravis Captain with MCHBR

 

Applying basic significant figures, that’s… 2 damage.

 

Applying basic ranges that’s 2-6 damage weighted towards… 2 damage.

Maybe @AutumnEffect can give a more precise answer.

I'm guessing that doesn't count cover either 

[jaxom]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

I'm guessing that doesn't count cover either 

Correct.

[Tacitus]

On 12/12/2024 at 7:38 PM, Medjugorje said:

I think MArines are already a good army - they ´ve no need to change OoM. But it would be still okay if Ultramarines dont have access to it. So they have the most and best datasheets AND+1 to wound. So they are WAY beyond echa compliant AND non-compliant chapter.

Ultramarines have 

Primarch

Chapter Master

Captain + Captain

Libby.

No units

So Codex + 5

 

DA have

Primarch

Chapter Master

Captain + Captain + Captain

Quasi Ravenwing Lieutenant

Libby

Chaplain

And 8 Units.

So Codex + 15.

 

DA have 3 times as many more as UM.  So was the hate really because they're the face of the franchise?

 

[Tacitus]

11 hours ago, AutumnEffect said:

It will allways be more efficient to shoot something that does more than 1 damage at something that has more than 1 wound. 

Not to nitpick, but this isn't exactly true.  There's a break point where destroying OC is more efficient than destroying points.  Generally speaking, you're gonna chop off 2 OC per wound on the Guardsmen, while the Russ needs to be a smoking crater to chop 3 OC.  One of the things that gets lost in this discussion format is that kill counts aren't usually the way to win anymore depending on meta.  How often do you see a bat rep end with "And I didn't really have enough models to contest objectives anymore". 

[Tacitus]

On 12/12/2024 at 9:06 PM, AutumnEffect said:

 

Ah, my bad. Missed the context. Yeah, they do 4 wounds under OoM.

 

I feel like the fact OoM is only going to apply to one enemy unit a turn gets glossed over. If people are seriously looking at bolters to be their 'go' weapon on an OoM target...
That's a weird game/army list.

 

I understand there is a discussion going on about how bolters could be perceived as 'too strong' under OoM compared to 'lore' or 'reality'.

But it's a special rule reflecting Space Marine battle tactics and targeting a unit. It isn't literally making your weapons stronger for +1 to wound or giving you more accurate targeting equipment to let you re-roll to hit.

Wanting to apply reality or physics to it is missing the forest for the trees.

Even beyond that the math still says don't do it.  Even at 4 Damage (wounds after save) per unit (plus two grenades that probably whiff 3 out of 4 chances) your 160 points of Intercessors will need three turns (assuming the Aux Gl's whiff as expected and are only "good" for the 13th wound, and smoothing spikes) - and that's three turns where the Ress isn't pounding you with Sponsons, Battlecanon and Lascannon in return.   Efficiency isn't playing either unit against the other.  The Space Marine player loses his plastic men fast, and the AM player never gets to score.   But because the OC differential is laughable, the Russ gets to reroll hits, which still isn't going to matter against 10 T4 3+ 2W OC2 bodies. 

 

Grav Cannon was king because in addition to 4 shots per, it had S5 instead of 4 (wounded on 5's or better  vs a T cap of about 8 - and before boosters) AP-3, and D2.  Bolt Rifles have four shots.  Wound on 6's vs a new "cap" of about T12 (before boosters) AP-1 and D1.  After the number of shots, you just keep getting half of what you used to have with Grav.  That's what kills the Bolter vs Tank.  Remember, they had to give Grav Anti-Vehicle 2+  Without it Grav isn't even in the ballpark.  People still prefer Las because Tyrannid Monstrous Creatures are not "vehicles" when it comes to Grav.

 

That's not what the change to Intercessors was for.  Now, GW isn't really well known for secondary and tertiary fallout from their changes.  But in this case they didn't make the bolter a tank killer in a five turn game.  This change was A) to buff the Intercessors to get them off the shelf, and B) give them some damage output.  The obvious Rock-Paper-Scissors is 10 Intercessors shooting 20 Ork Boys.  But you're also looking at 10 Intercessors vs 10 Tacs/Infils/Incursors/yadda yadda.  10 Ints vs 10 ____ Marines.  still 40 shots, still 35ish hits, now wounds on a 3+ - you're looking at close to what 26 wounds, vs a 3+-1 save or about 13 damage when you're all said and done.  6 and a half ____ Marines or their equivalent are gone- Also not counting the Aux-GL's that are significantly less likely to whiff here. 

 

How many of y'all do the Infiltrators, Omni-Scramblers, Phobos Libby, Shrouding Wombo Combo!?  You know, the "You can't land within 12, and you can't shoot from outside 12 so this objective is too much of a pain in the butt to try and take away from me." thing?  Something similar?  I mean sure, something like Angron or The Lion Deep striking up there would ruin your day, but now he's all the way up there, and wasting so much time - thus the "too much of a pain in the butt" calculation.  You've got two ways to do this:

 

Captain, Lieutenant, 5 Intercessors inside the Impulsor.  7 Bolt Rifles (Depending on how the inevitable is a Master Crafted Bolt Rifle still a Bolt Rifle FAQ comes down) two Power Somethings and you still have an Impulsor running around plinking and disrupting.  7 Bolt Rifles vs 10 from before... Meh you'll lose some but not much, plus you gain LETHAL HITS from 7x4 - and the next turn charge is going to hurt with two hidden power weapon+'s.  If it's even necessary. 

 

Or the other way, 10 Intercessors in a Pod. 

 

Either way you're dropping roughly 230, vs 170-270 for the Wombo Combo and you're way more likely to win the contest, plus have two units out there, one to park on the pain in the butt objective you were already looking past, and one to run around disrupting after it's already earned its keep. 

 

Anyone else remember Intercessors sticky cap?  So drive 18, shoot 24, sticky cap, pile back in and drive off?  

 

I suppose if you really really wanted to you could use a Land Raider or Repulsor to get 10 dudes, (and the Cap/Lt for 12 Bolt Rifles plus more guns on the delivery vehicle) but I'm not sure that's worth it.  Minimal T+W improvement, losing a potential 5++ middle finger to the lascannons trying to take out the delivery vehicle, and you get a different Ramp ability of likely less utility, only to pay more.  

 

Now there may be potential in a coupel Land Raiders dropping off Bladeguard Vets, Assault Termies etc, while two Shield Dome Impulsors disgorge Intercessors to shoot, cap, and scoot objectives to play a very irritating mobility plan that also stretches opponent anti-tank.  Make it even worse with marauding Dreads, or Aircraft, etc.   Ballistus Dreads playing the role of backfield artillery, Redemptors riding on Stormravens with the Termies/BGV that used to be in Land Raiders.  Cent Devs instead/in addition to the Ballistus.   Whether you like Mechanized Infantry as a theme, or flooding a T-band outside of the basic infantry weapons its got some potential now that you can put the cheapie BATTLELINE unit in the cheapie Transport, and people are scared of it.   Even better if they're not scared of it and should be. 

[Indy Techwisp]

19 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

That doesn't work because it's due to a particular detachment. Would you argue the price should increase if Blood Angels players decided to run Angelic Host? Of course not, because that would be ridiculous. 

Detachment rule is the problem, end of story. That Blood Angels get +2S instead of just +1S like World Eaters is a bit silly. 

 

I was using that as an example.

Guess I picked a unit that hit a nerve, huh.

 

What I mean by that is "Each Divergent Chapter should have their own point cost for each Base LSM unit."

For a different example, let's say that for some reason Dark Angels armies start rolling the Top Tables using some newly discovered Tactical Marines jank that's only avaliable to them.

Rather than every Space Marine faction in the game having the Points of Tacticals go up, only Dark Angels have Tacticals go up in cost.

 

Again, this was not intended as a "BA is breaking the game." complaint.

It was a "BA using their own Detachment effectively is making JPAIs more costly for factions who can't use that Detachment." observation.

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

For a different example, let's say that for some reason Dark Angels armies start rolling the Top Tables using some newly discovered Tactical Marines jank that's only avaliable to them.

Rather than every Space Marine faction in the game having the Points of Tacticals go up, only Dark Angels have Tacticals go up in cost.

Like Azrael giving Hellblasters the Deathwing keyword?

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I was using that as an example.

Guess I picked a unit that hit a nerve, huh.

 

What I mean by that is "Each Divergent Chapter should have their own point cost for each Base LSM unit."

For a different example, let's say that for some reason Dark Angels armies start rolling the Top Tables using some newly discovered Tactical Marines jank that's only avaliable to them.

Rather than every Space Marine faction in the game having the Points of Tacticals go up, only Dark Angels have Tacticals go up in cost.

 

Again, this was not intended as a "BA is breaking the game." complaint.

It was a "BA using their own Detachment effectively is making JPAIs more costly for factions who can't use that Detachment." observation.

But they have three (soon 4) detachments. Do you think Jump Intercessors need a cost increase with The Angelic Host?

Edited December 14 by HeadlessCross
Spelling is hard

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Even beyond that the math still says don't do it.  Even at 4 Damage (wounds after save) per unit (plus two grenades that probably whiff 3 out of 4 chances) your 160 points of Intercessors will need three turns (assuming the Aux Gl's whiff as expected and are only "good" for the 13th wound, and smoothing spikes) - and that's three turns where the Ress isn't pounding you with Sponsons, Battlecanon and Lascannon in return.   Efficiency isn't playing either unit against the other.  The Space Marine player loses his plastic men fast, and the AM player never gets to score.   But because the OC differential is laughable, the Russ gets to reroll hits, which still isn't going to matter against 10 T4 3+ 2W OC2 bodies. 

 

Grav Cannon was king because in addition to 4 shots per, it had S5 instead of 4 (wounded on 5's or better  vs a T cap of about 8 - and before boosters) AP-3, and D2.  Bolt Rifles have four shots.  Wound on 6's vs a new "cap" of about T12 (before boosters) AP-1 and D1.  After the number of shots, you just keep getting half of what you used to have with Grav.  That's what kills the Bolter vs Tank.  Remember, they had to give Grav Anti-Vehicle 2+  Without it Grav isn't even in the ballpark.  People still prefer Las because Tyrannid Monstrous Creatures are not "vehicles" when it comes to Grav.

 

That's not what the change to Intercessors was for.  Now, GW isn't really well known for secondary and tertiary fallout from their changes.  But in this case they didn't make the bolter a tank killer in a five turn game.  This change was A) to buff the Intercessors to get them off the shelf, and B) give them some damage output.  The obvious Rock-Paper-Scissors is 10 Intercessors shooting 20 Ork Boys.  But you're also looking at 10 Intercessors vs 10 Tacs/Infils/Incursors/yadda yadda.  10 Ints vs 10 ____ Marines.  still 40 shots, still 35ish hits, now wounds on a 3+ - you're looking at close to what 26 wounds, vs a 3+-1 save or about 13 damage when you're all said and done.  6 and a half ____ Marines or their equivalent are gone- Also not counting the Aux-GL's that are significantly less likely to whiff here. 

 

How many of y'all do the Infiltrators, Omni-Scramblers, Phobos Libby, Shrouding Wombo Combo!?  You know, the "You can't land within 12, and you can't shoot from outside 12 so this objective is too much of a pain in the butt to try and take away from me." thing?  Something similar?  I mean sure, something like Angron or The Lion Deep striking up there would ruin your day, but now he's all the way up there, and wasting so much time - thus the "too much of a pain in the butt" calculation.  You've got two ways to do this:

 

Captain, Lieutenant, 5 Intercessors inside the Impulsor.  7 Bolt Rifles (Depending on how the inevitable is a Master Crafted Bolt Rifle still a Bolt Rifle FAQ comes down) two Power Somethings and you still have an Impulsor running around plinking and disrupting.  7 Bolt Rifles vs 10 from before... Meh you'll lose some but not much, plus you gain LETHAL HITS from 7x4 - and the next turn charge is going to hurt with two hidden power weapon+'s.  If it's even necessary. 

 

Or the other way, 10 Intercessors in a Pod. 

 

Either way you're dropping roughly 230, vs 170-270 for the Wombo Combo and you're way more likely to win the contest, plus have two units out there, one to park on the pain in the butt objective you were already looking past, and one to run around disrupting after it's already earned its keep. 

 

Anyone else remember Intercessors sticky cap?  So drive 18, shoot 24, sticky cap, pile back in and drive off?  

 

I suppose if you really really wanted to you could use a Land Raider or Repulsor to get 10 dudes, (and the Cap/Lt for 12 Bolt Rifles plus more guns on the delivery vehicle) but I'm not sure that's worth it.  Minimal T+W improvement, losing a potential 5++ middle finger to the lascannons trying to take out the delivery vehicle, and you get a different Ramp ability of likely less utility, only to pay more.  

 

Now there may be potential in a coupel Land Raiders dropping off Bladeguard Vets, Assault Termies etc, while two Shield Dome Impulsors disgorge Intercessors to shoot, cap, and scoot objectives to play a very irritating mobility plan that also stretches opponent anti-tank.  Make it even worse with marauding Dreads, or Aircraft, etc.   Ballistus Dreads playing the role of backfield artillery, Redemptors riding on Stormravens with the Termies/BGV that used to be in Land Raiders.  Cent Devs instead/in addition to the Ballistus.   Whether you like Mechanized Infantry as a theme, or flooding a T-band outside of the basic infantry weapons its got some potential now that you can put the cheapie BATTLELINE unit in the cheapie Transport, and people are scared of it.   Even better if they're not scared of it and should be. 

Nobody is going to do that first combo because they're going to want the Captain and Lieutenant to get rerolls from Assault Intercessors, and in the end you'd rather get something like Plasma or Flamers shooting from the top instead (which also doesn't require character support).

 

It's cute, but it's not going to frighten anyone. 

[Indy Techwisp]

9 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

But they have three (soon 4) detachments. Do you think Jump Intercessors need a cost increase with The Angelic Host?

 

No, I just picked a random unit that I use in my own Space Marine army.

 

Besides, it would be a Faction wide thing.

BA players use the BA points for the Marine units, which are seperate from the DA Points, the BT Points, the SW points, the DW points and the Base LSM points.

I highly doubt GW would go down to the granularity of units costing different points in different Detachments.

[Karhedron]

Having just done away with squad upgrade costs, I can't see GW looking to add upgrade costs back in for detachments. Also, as long as the detachments are reasonably balanced against each other, it should all even out. Of course the problem in 10th was that there were no longer any drawbacks for taking special Chapters which meant that the vanilla ones were getting left behind. The boost to OOM seems to address this on paper so we will see how it pans out.

 

At the end of the day, Marines of any colour are not setting the meta on fire right now so I don't see points increases as being necessary. Besides, if you went down that path, you would need to to the same for all the other factions in the game and then you are almost back to square 1 in terms of game balance. Not all detachments are equally balanced but GW has at least shown willingness to try and address this such as fixing Sons of Russ.

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Nobody is going to do that first combo because they're going to want the Captain and Lieutenant to get rerolls from Assault Intercessors, and in the end you'd rather get something like Plasma or Flamers shooting from the top instead (which also doesn't require character support).

 

It's cute, but it's not going to frighten anyone. 

If I'm running Assault Intercessors, I'm running Titus with them, and maybe an Apothecary or an Ancient as Titus doesn't have the Captain/ChapterMaster exemption so you have to use him as the Lieutenant exemption trigger Or a Judiciar for Fights First.  Beyond that, are we limited to one Captain/Lieutenant?  I may have missed that while I was moving. 

 

In theory you don't need the Cap/Lieutenant.  My rulebook is still packed so I'm not sure what the rulebook says the Cap/LT gear is, the app now says its a Bolter (Which isn't a bolt rifle so he can't participate)  That said the Lieutenant for Fall back and shoot and Lethal Hits, plus an Ancient to make the unit OC 19 (21 with Impulsor), 6th bolt rifle, and self-only 4+++ is another way to go.  Potentially better.  Roughly half size unit to start that can delete half a 10 man MEQ or worse unit and out OC them even if they don't? 

 

I dunno, I'm still juggling but it feels like potential.