Lion's Blade Detachment Feedback

[Prot]

Hey all, I'm just wondering if anyone else has given it a shot. 

 

I had a rough outing trying it out vs. Votann. I do find Votann to typically feast on marines with the plethora of no cover, 2d standard weaponry.

 

My list might have been the issue, but I found the detachment is really only going to click if you manage to get a mixture of wings involved in combats... which seems much harder than I originally thought.  

 

The only strat I found practical was the +1 to wound on a Ravenwing target. (The wording is awkward but I believe I used it correctly.) However I typically use the "ravenwing" speeder that gives me plus 1 to wound. If I'm reading it correctly, that speeder does what the strat does, without costing a CP.

 

So I got hammered, and felt a few issues made this pretty hard to get rolling.

 

I'm still also finding the cost of the Lion is... just in a word ridiculous. He went up because of his sweep attack? Bizarrre. He still doesn't do much for the army and he's just so easy to avoid and then gets smoked in shooting in 90% of my games. (since he's completely close combat focused, this seems very unavoidable.)

 

So I'm thinking of pulling him out of army again. Also you REALLY feel that limitation of AoC changes. It's flat out ugly now. They should have made it an activation strat for perhaps 2+ saves only. This is pretty brutal now on 3+ saves.

 

Let me know how you're finding it.

 

 

[DemonGSides]

Specifically with the Lion, youve gotta treat him like infantry wrt to staging. He can move through ruin walls now, so keeping him hidden whenever possible is key.

 

The points increase may have been a bit heavy but overall is warranted; his weak attack doubled in power and now absolutely obliterated Marine stat levels without issue. 

[Prot]

I personally do not field the Lion to go after marine type statlines. I typically have a lot in my lists that are probably better at taking down marine based stats. So I guess that's where I find his cost a little too much. 

 

What I find is (even with going through walls) that experienced opponents are great at kiting and managing the lion. An excellent example of the opposite is Abaddon. He is unavoidable and and can't be picked out at 12".  

 

I'm just at a point where I'm going to pull him out of the list.  And in part this is because I love the Deathwing component and the lists simply become to light on boots to support him, and then he becomes the 'must work' part of the list.

 

What I was looking forward to was the mixed wing aspect. That's the part I feel this detachment might fall short. In the past with the Hunters detachment I used very large bike squads. In my Lion's Blade detachment I've been trying 3 man Black Knight squads. The idea was to be able to leverage the 'mixed wing' strategems but it never happened for me in close combat. The bikes would get picked out early and die too fast. 

 

I will have to practice with this, but I never did get a single assault off with the detachment rules in effect.

[crimsondave]

The points increase looks to me to be too much.  It would be more justifiable if they just reverted back to his index sheet with the minus 1 to wound but even then I’m not sure.

 

What few very narrative games I’ve played I’ve never stopped using the index stats.  It makes him very hard to deal with up close and a lot harder to shoot off the table, but he is avoidable.  With his index stats he’s very formidable in a fun game where players are wanting to see characters go at each other, but even with his index stats at 315 in a competitive game I’m not sure he’s worth it against an army that can avoid him.

[Tacitus]

14 hours ago, Prot said:

Hey all, I'm just wondering if anyone else has given it a shot. 

 

I had a rough outing trying it out vs. Votann. I do find Votann to typically feast on marines with the plethora of no cover, 2d standard weaponry.

 

My list might have been the issue, but I found the detachment is really only going to click if you manage to get a mixture of wings involved in combats... which seems much harder than I originally thought.  

 

The only strat I found practical was the +1 to wound on a Ravenwing target. (The wording is awkward but I believe I used it correctly.) However I typically use the "ravenwing" speeder that gives me plus 1 to wound. If I'm reading it correctly, that speeder does what the strat does, without costing a CP.

 

So I got hammered, and felt a few issues made this pretty hard to get rolling.

 

I'm still also finding the cost of the Lion is... just in a word ridiculous. He went up because of his sweep attack? Bizarrre. He still doesn't do much for the army and he's just so easy to avoid and then gets smoked in shooting in 90% of my games. (since he's completely close combat focused, this seems very unavoidable.)

 

So I'm thinking of pulling him out of army again. Also you REALLY feel that limitation of AoC changes. It's flat out ugly now. They should have made it an activation strat for perhaps 2+ saves only. This is pretty brutal now on 3+ saves.

 

Let me know how you're finding it.

 

 

Dinking with AOC mid edition was a huge mistake.  That's pretty much what they built Marines off of. It is THE baseline/foundation/building block.  And they made it obvious by being one of the things that goes from Det to Det. 

 

As for the Detachment, I was less impressed than most.  Yeah the Strats aren't great.  The eye popper was the Det Rule - and then only half of that, with a teaspoon of Wombo Combo Gotcha from Inescapable Wrath (They charge your Ravenwing, at the end of their charge phase, you get to charge with your Deathwing.  Its not Heroic Intervention, it counts as a charge so it triggers the Det Rule, but not the Charge Bonus Rules.  It makes for a potentially breathtaking one trick pony, but still a one trick pony none the less.  The game becomes entirely about charging a unit with some Ravenwing. Charge wtih Deathwing Knights + Terminator Captain to get a Rerolled Charge+2" roll.  Its all about using the Ravenwing to slingshot the Deathwing around the board. Evaporate Target, or inspire a fallback triggering Desperate Escape.

 

As for the Speeder, I'm pretty sure you're reading and/or remembering it wrong:

All are limited to (During the Shooting Phase) and (Until the end of the phase) 

Stormspeeder Hailstrike works ONLY on Non-Vehicle/Non-Monster and gives bonus (or an extra -1 to) AP

Thunderstrikes only work on Vehicle/Monsters and gives +1 to Wound

Hammerstrikes remove the benefit of cover.

 

The Strat gives +1 to Wound to Deathwing Units that target the selected enemy unit within 12" of the Target Ravenwing Unit that shot at it.  (I.e. You Target a Ravenwing Unit (TargetA) who shot at an enemy unit within 12" of the Ravenwing which is then selected (Target B) and so regardless of selected unit keywords, any Deathwing units of yours that (unless things get weird) shoots at the selected unit gets +1 to wound - Yeah the wording is pretty bad, because they had to go around and around on "target" vs "select".  Its similar but not the same so it can dovetail/interact.  In fact it can even double-duty.  Take yourself a Ravenwing Hailstrike, Drive it up <12" away, use the strat, and any deathwing shooting the same target as the Hailstrike gets -1 AP and +1 to wound.  I assume that was the mini-combo they were walking people into.   You could even theoretically then Charge with the Speeder, giving your 10 Deathwing Shootinators led by a Captain two chances to roll a charge into the unit htey just shot but didn't kill.  I guess.   I dunno, still not all that enticing. 

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Prot said:

I personally do not field the Lion to go after marine type statlines.

I'm not too worried about what the target type the Lion goes after is.  He's my "beat stick" but sometimes the opponent doesn't have their own beat stick, or their army is built with a distraction beatstick and I'll get more oomph sending my beatstick in to ginsu MEQ or even GEQ because that's what they're vulnerable to. 

 

The problem with the Lion is his "beat stick" is not "beatier" than Bobby G by as much as Bobby G's buff auras are "buffier" than the Lion's - which is why there's a point difference.  But there's not enough of a points difference ore more likely too much of a buff difference.  Aside from G getting two, The Lion only really has 1 you want to use.  The other two are too situational/niche to get consistent play. 

 

Edit to Add:  Also I hope that next edition they give at least the Deathwing keyword to the Lion so that he can participate in the First Company stuff.  I mean the Inner Circle Det is a lost cause - its only for Infantry, and Ravenwing aren't Inner Circle this time around anyway so it should have been the combi-wing unit but it isnt.  And Lion isn't even in the Inner Circle at this point for some reason.   Compare that to Bobby G in a 1st Company Task Force and his claim to fame dovetails with the Det Rule.  

 

Bobby G:  Pick two OOM Targets.

Det Rule: Reroll to Wound vs OOM targets. 

 

They're just not paying attention to the Lion and how he fits in his own chapter. 

Edited December 20, 2024 by Tacitus

[Raychu]

hello brothers.

I am taking a shot at the new detachement tonight. I don't know yet against what, probably Grey knights. I'll tell you how I performed (but I am not in a competitive mind of play)

Azarel (Warlord), with an apothicary and 10 hellblaster
Terminator captain with Fulgus Magna and 5 DWK

Terminator chaplain with calibanite armaments with 5 DWK

Chaplain on bike with Lord of the Hunt with 6 outriders

RW command squad with 6 RWBK

 

5 scouts

Ballistus Dread

1 Stormspeeder Thunderstrike

What do you think? trade the apothicary for 5 more scouts?

 

 

[crimsondave]

On 12/20/2024 at 2:21 AM, Tacitus said:

I'm not too worried about what the target type the Lion goes after is.  He's my "beat stick" but sometimes the opponent doesn't have their own beat stick, or their army is built with a distraction beatstick and I'll get more oomph sending my beatstick in to ginsu MEQ or even GEQ because that's what they're vulnerable to. 

 

The problem with the Lion is his "beat stick" is not "beatier" than Bobby G by as much as Bobby G's buff auras are "buffier" than the Lion's - which is why there's a point difference.  But there's not enough of a points difference ore more likely too much of a buff difference.  Aside from G getting two, The Lion only really has 1 you want to use.  The other two are too situational/niche to get consistent play. 

 

Edit to Add:  Also I hope that next edition they give at least the Deathwing keyword to the Lion so that he can participate in the First Company stuff.  I mean the Inner Circle Det is a lost cause - its only for Infantry, and Ravenwing aren't Inner Circle this time around anyway so it should have been the combi-wing unit but it isnt.  And Lion isn't even in the Inner Circle at this point for some reason.   Compare that to Bobby G in a 1st Company Task Force and his claim to fame dovetails with the Det Rule.  

 

Bobby G:  Pick two OOM Targets.

Det Rule: Reroll to Wound vs OOM targets. 

 

They're just not paying attention to the Lion and how he fits in his own chapter. 

Or they have too many Papa Smurfs in stock.

[Tacitus]

On 12/21/2024 at 6:23 AM, crimsondave said:

Or they have too many Papa Smurfs in stock.

That's a pretty long-term fix for a short-term problem - I think it's more likely they're Beta Testing Primarch rules here.  Well, more accurately WE are beta testing Primarch rules.  I think they want people playing with the big central theme model (Primarchs, Prime Orks, Super Suits, Greater Daemons, etc), but they're being uncharacteristically timid getting the Primarchs into place.  They normally overcorrect and have to rubberband (Swing too far right, rubber band pulls it back too far left, so swing back less to the right etc) something into the right place - but they're focused on something other than the low hanging fruit - like giving the Lion the Deathwing keyword.  It might be too wild to give him Deathwing AND Ravenwing - but so many of the Chapter Dets fail to make the Lion look attractive because he can't take advantage of anything.   Only the one Det has a Det rule or more than the AOC Strat that can touch him.  I mean sure Inner Circle was already borked because they didn't want to include the Deathwing Dreads, but it just gets more ridiculous. 

[Prot]

Well after a few tries I have to honestly question my own positivity angle on this detachment. 

 

I have had more losses with this detachment than probably the ICT. Just for full disclosure when it comes to DA I refuse to play the Gladius. I understand it's better than anything the DA have, but if I want to play the Gladius, I will just pull out my Ultra's. 

 

So be that as it may, I have to agree with Tacitus the Lion isn't in a good spot.

 

The recent points increase based on his sweep attack shows me GW isn't playing the Lion, they're imaging he's amazing and needs to be priced 'accordingly'. 

 

I just played a game with Guilliman and I have to agree that the Lion isn't really a bigger beatstick than Guilliman. In fact the invlun is nice, but too easy to circumvent, and the difference isn't enough to warrant the cost. (Don't forget he lost damage reduction, so one failed save after some bolter wounds and he's still prone to an early death.)

 

I still put Abaddon miles ahead. The mileage I get out of him imbedded in a Chosen squad is night and day.

 

When I played Guilliman I actually realized on death he may get back up, and he did. This puts him in a whole new possibility of 'bonus' attacks compared to the Lion. I was lucky and this did happen at the end of my opponent's turn so Guillman did get full advantage of coming back to life.

 

as far as the detachment, this is where I fell short. The idea on paper is good/fun. In practice I found it too hard to mix the wings enough to get that +2 to charges to fully kick in. The mixed wings, imbedded in the same close combat (which is typically not idea) is the only way to proc one of the best strats in the detachment... it's just too hard to pull off and the strats are actually nearly unplayable.

 

I started off quite positive on this detachment. Maybe it can work, but I believe my love of terminators makes it cost prohibitive. 

 

I still would rank the ICT above this (and it's not great, nothing that competitive players would take instead of the Gladius.)

 

Well hopefully some of you have some better news!  Meanwhile I'll probably go back to ICT and see if I can make the Lion work. (I'm painting up some Bladeguard to keep him alive longer.)