Theory of Rogal Dorn's return.

[MadGamerAK]

Hey, so, I heard a rumor of a theory about Rogal Dorn, the theory is that he may be in hiding as an Adeptus Custode, now, I have faith in this theory, because Dorn's purpose was to protect the Emperor, the theory would add up, as the Custodes have the same purpose, anybody here agree with this theory?

[MadGamerAK]

Hello all! I heard a rumor (Mosty from Black Templar players and Imperial Fists players) Of Dorn returning, some say he is dead, but one of the Theories is he is alive as a Custode, which would make sense considering both have the same purpose, to protect the emperor. I like this theory. Anybody out there agree with this theory, or do you have another theory, if so, I would love to hear about them.

[LittlePlasticHomies]

Not so much a rumor as a concept of a rumor.

[Marshal Rohr]

Not a real rumor. No Primarchs outside of the big Four for loyalists and chaos will ever be released. 

[MadGamerAK]

Personally, I would say there is a 50-50% chance of him coming back.  However, there is proof he may be dead, yet, they only found his hand, yes, he could have been blown away, but still, there is always a chance until GW proves me wrong.

[firestorm40k]

To be honest, I can see all the surviving Primarchs being brought back to 40k - simply because GW like selling models  Fulgrim is almost certainly going to arrive with Emperor's Children, and after that it's likely to be Leman Russ. I can understand the choice, Space Wolves are immensely popular. 

 

After that, bets are off, really. I can see Dorn being the next Loyalist Primarch after Russ, due to the prominence of Imperial Fists and their successors (Black Templars, Crimson Fists especially) in the setting. After Fulgrim, I think Perturabo is the next shout for a Daemon Primarch. But I wouldn't say that's tacked on - mainly because the way GW have handled the narrative for each Primarch's return. 

 

There's been a pattern - the narrative for each return has seen the Primarchs have confrontations that didn't actually occur during the Heresy. First back were Magnus and Guilliman. Then it was Mortatrion, who Guilliman faded off against.  The Arks of Omen narrative that saw Angron then the Lion return culminated with them facing off. 

 

So I do wonder if Dorn and Perturabo will be brought back in close proximity, seeing as they had confrontations in the Heresy (at the Siege) and afterwards, in the Scouring. 

 

This makes me wonder if we might actually see Lorgar before Perturabo, simply because he and Dorn didn't have a confrontation during the Heresy, and they could make a narrative out of that... But then there's the narrative of (daemon) Corax hunting Lorgar, so if he did return, likely so would his pursuer.

 

Anyway, all purely conjecture, just like the rumour which prompted this thread - I can see this being moved to the Space Marine section.

[MadGamerAK]

I agree with you, I really think there is a good chance of most of the Primarchs coming back because as you said, GW likes to sell Models.

[ZeroWolf]

Yeah I'd be surprised if GW didn't bring back everyone they feasibly could* at some point. The temptation is there since they know primarchs sell by the bucketload. Question would be how they handle rules for them (goes for the undivided chaos ones as well)

 

Though this isn't in the right forum I think

 

* aside from the dead ones who require more hoops to jump through.

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

That theory has been going the rounds since I started back in 2003. I don't really think it has any teeth.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've merged the two discussions (one was started in the Black Templars forum and the other in the News, Rumors, and Board Announcements forum - both have been moved to the Adeptus Astartes forum and merged here as the most appropriate place).

[Tacitus]

I'm sure there is some level of plan to bring back some version of Dorn.  I do not think he's been pretending to be a Custode.  In the first place, I'm pretty sure people would notice the 20 foot tall Custode.  Self Imposed or some other technologically forced penance or exile is far more likely.  And I'm pretty sure he's down the road a-ways.  As others have said the Big Four are still out there - Technically the Big Five.  We're about to see Russ and Fulgrim.  At which Point they'll be stuck with what to do about Horus and Sanguinius.   That said, I suspect they'll be stuck there, because they ARE stuck there.  I mean Sanguinius has some options between upjumping The Sanguinor, or piecing him back together psychically like some sort of emotional blob - every son of Sang in one place, the Black Rage leaves their body like flies leaving Michael Clark Duncan's mouth in The Green Mile thus completing Sang's Jesus Arc, he was the favored son, he died, and on the third millenia he was resurrected.  The hardest two to bring back will be Horus and Curze.

 

If you want some more theory:

When the Primarch comes back, the Chapter/Legion gets a new rival different from their 30K Rival(s).  UM vs Magnus (which I think was temporary) and replaced right away with UM vs Death Guard.  In the past UM was always "rivaled" with either the Black Legion (as its mirror - they usually shared Chapter/Legion trait/rules) or Word Bearers.  This time around they appear to be less directly mirror rivals with the Deathguard.  They both take two different roads to "Toughest/Sturdiest/Most Robust Legion". 

 

Next up we have Russ vs Fulgrim which takes Fulgrim away from Bobby G (and Sanguinius? and Ferrus), plus removing Russ from Magnus and Angron.  Angron already went after The Lion -which removes Angron from Sanguinius, and the Lion from Curze and Horus?.  My guess is Sanguinius comes back - and since he's been out of the spotlight for a while - gets a rivalry with Magnus in a blitzkrieg of the battle mages. 

 

Here's where we start getting interesting.  There are five Chaos Legions.  The Four Gods, and the Undivided Black Legion.  There are only Big Four loyalists right now. UM, BA, DA, SW. ("Undivided" UM, and three "divergents")  So at some point, they need another "divergent" primarch to balance the Big Five.  Here's where Dorn rumors can take off.  He's got three chapters to pull from, one of which is Divergent.  Give him some Legion based special rules (In Fists he chooses from from this list of Primarch Rules, in Templars lists he pulls from that list of Primarch rules) so in theory you can paint him up as Imperial/Crimson Fist or Templar, or some unifying color scheme for all three.  Plus with three chapters of his legion having official support he's most likely to pay for himself.  And they just need a fifth dude to balance out a fifth Daemon Primarch for story and rivalry purposes. 

[Indy Techwisp]

Clearly, the pattern is 2 Chaos Primarchs for every returning Loyalist.

This is presumably to off-set the fact that more Loyalists actually died.

 

So we had Magnus, then Guilliman and Mortarion for the 1st set.

Next, we have Angron, Lion and Fulgrim for the 2nd set.

Next after that is Russ (Valrak says he is coming, just not with the Space Wolves wave), so we should expect 2 Chaos Primarchs in a row here.

IMO, I'm predicting Perty and Lorgar here, with Dorn coming in with rules for both Codex Imperial Fists and Supplement Black Templars after that (probably this would be your end of 12th campaign thing).

 

Alternatively Dorn doesn't return and instead of a Primarch BT get some kind of "Sigismund Ascended" centerpiece character like the Sanguinor is BA's centerpiece.

As to how that works lorewise?

No clue, maybe the religious fervor of the BTs convinces Big E to use his developing God powers to respawn Sigismund into the modern timeline or something.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Clearly, the pattern is 2 Chaos Primarchs for every returning Loyalist.

This is presumably to off-set the fact that more Loyalists actually died.

 

So we had Magnus, then Guilliman and Mortarion for the 1st set.

Next, we have Angron, Lion and Fulgrim for the 2nd set.

Next after that is Russ (Valrak says he is coming, just not with the Space Wolves wave), so we should expect 2 Chaos Primarchs in a row here.

IMO, I'm predicting Perty and Lorgar here, with Dorn coming in with rules for both Codex Imperial Fists and Supplement Black Templars after that (probably this would be your end of 12th campaign thing).

 

Alternatively Dorn doesn't return and instead of a Primarch BT get some kind of "Sigismund Ascended" centerpiece character like the Sanguinor is BA's centerpiece.

As to how that works lorewise?

No clue, maybe the religious fervor of the BTs convinces Big E to use his developing God powers to respawn Sigismund into the modern timeline or something.

Assuming Russ is coming back (if he does, he may set the trend of 2 primarchs coming back every edition) it'll be the same time as the Lion did, eg. Just before 11th edition. So just because he's not in the Space Wolf refresh doesn't mean he's not coming. If anything, it's only the chaos primarchs that are tied to their army releases apparently. Which makes me wonder if they could stick Vashtor, perty and the dark mech into a book to keep that tradition alive

[Orange Knight]

I think we'll get 4 on each side.. or maybe the 3 big loyalists only.

 

Games Workshop haven't updated Lysander yet. I really have no expectations of them releasing any Imperial Fist models beyond just updating a character... eventually, if at all. 

 

I've mentioned this before, but I get the impression that GW's experiment with the lesser known chapters has probably convinced them not to support them much going forward. They would have collected metrics on the supplements and the models and the chapter usage in the previous editions, and that's why they've scaled back support for the codex chapters in 10th. I hope I'm wrong of course.

 

I think that by the time Fulgrim and Russ have been released, it will not be far off from starting the release cycle all over again. So... I'm expecting a new Guilliman, an updated Intercessor kit, etc etc. They do actually have to update the kits as they abandoned the different rifle variations, so there is a lot of wasted space on those sprues that could go towards Sgt upgrades, special weapons, etc etc.

By the time Russ actually drops, a lot of Primaris kits are going to be over or close to 10 years old. Let's not forget how many times the old Tactical squads were refreshed, and how many small chapter specific variants existed. That's what I imagine we'll be getting.

 

 

[Karhedron]

13 hours ago, MadGamerAK said:

Personally, I would say there is a 50-50% chance of him coming back.  However, there is proof he may be dead, yet, they only found his hand, yes, he could have been blown away, but still, there is always a chance until GW proves me wrong.

 

I have a theory. Dorn sacrificed his life in an assault on the traitor vessel, Sword of Sacrilege in an attempt to stall the first Black Crusade. When the Fists caught up, all they found was his charred, skeletal hand.

 

In Praetorian of Dorn, Dorn fights and kills Alpharius just before the Siege of Terra. The books makes a big point that before killing him, Dorn cuts his hands off during their duel. We also know that the Primarchs are so genetically similar that they are very difficult to tell apart. Curze was once able to launch a Drop Pod assault from the Invincible Reason using his own geneprint, despite it being supposedly locked to Lion'el Johnson.

 

This means that Dorn was potentially wandering around with a spare Primarch hand in his pocket. Now let's say that Dorn decides he needs to go under cover for some reason (secret mission, vision from the Emperor, craving for a jumbo pepperoni pizza etc). He leads what looks like a suicide mission, drops Alpharius's severed hand for his sons to find and slips away into obscurity. I am not saying this is definitely what happened but given the way GW have written the stories, they could have Dorn return without it being a massive retcon.

[Helias_Tancred]

Yes I think Dorn will return. I also think there is validity that not all of the loyalist primarchs will return. I don't fully agree with it, personally I'm split on the issue 50/50, but I could see it turning out to be true and wouldn't be surprised if eventually they only bring back Guilliman, Lion, Russ, and Dorn. I do think they will bring back all of the living daemon primarchs. If they didn't then I could see them leaving Lorgar behind. 

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Dorn from a canon point of view is just missing. A hand was recovered which was assumed to be Rogal's. The door is open for him to come back (along with Vulkan and the Khan). I'd be very surprised if the creative team at GW hasn't discussed this and even brain stormed how it might happen.

 

The main reason I think it's inevitable is that GW likes money and they know that the Primarchs will make them lots of money. 

 

From a personal point of view I would love Rogal Dorn to return. Seriously. I make Valrak look like the Iron Warriors biggest fan when it comes to love of the Imperial Fists so if Rogal Dorn came back I would explode in so many ways. 

[Orange Knight]

Do we think he would return to lead the Imperial Fists, or has he taken the Black?

 

I almost feel that he would be more suited as a vengeful angel at the head of a Black Templar Crusade.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 hours ago, ZeroWolf said:

Yeah I'd be surprised if GW didn't bring back everyone they feasibly could* at some point. The temptation is there since they know primarchs sell by the bucketload. Question would be how they handle rules for them (goes for the undivided chaos ones as well)

 

Though this isn't in the right forum I think

 

* aside from the dead ones who require more hoops to jump through.

There really aren’t that many hoops to jump through.

the ‘physics’ and ‘logic’ in 40K makes it fairly simple to put dead or ‘dead’ primarchs to return.

An obvious and easy way is as imperial demons/avatars. It could be a primarch‘s soul could possess a champion of their son’s ( in this case dorn and the EC.) or it could be more permanent thing where a marine carries a relic that allows the primarch’s soul to be tethered to real space much longer than a possession.

 

for sanguinius as an example, sure he’s ‘dead’ but GW has taken the path of making it vague whether or not some of the happenings in lore are actually sanguinius or not such as Dante and mephiston’s visions, so it’s arguable that sanguinius has already been brought back and active, it’s just finding a decent or plausible way of bringing him into the physical universe.

currently there’s 2 good candidates, the sanguinor and Dante, but they could also give the reliquary with a feather of sanguinius to the new leader of the SG and he could become sanguinius’ avatar.

 

but to the OP’s post I really hope that’s not how they go about bringing dorn back. That would be…silly to put it politely imho.

its super shallow “dOrN iS mEaNt To PrOtEcT tHe EmPeRoR, aNd CuStOdEs aRe ThE eMpErOr’S bOdYgUaRd”

 

that would be such a slap in the face to the sons of dorn for him to go into hiding for 10k years with the custodes rather than just staying with his sons, especially since the IF have been basically annihilated like twice iirc. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

After a few minutes of thought here’s an idea with a bit more depth.

 

Dorn returns as an imperial demon, possessing the emperor’s champion.

 

the BT being the religious fanatics they are would likely have more of an open vessel than his other sons.

on top of that though it sets of narrative conflict as maybe after a battle dorn sees the fanatics some of his sons have become and the trouble that causes in his heart being a secular being himself having been indoctrinated in the imperial truth of the crusade.(assuming he’s dead)

Edited December 24, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[MadGamerAK]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Do we think he would return to lead the Imperial Fists, or has he taken the Black?

 

I almost feel that he would be more suited as a vengeful angel at the head of a Black Templar Crusade.

As a Black Templars player, I would love to see him come back and lead the Black Templars, but I am a little split on that question. I do partially agree with what you said, if he were to come back I feel like he may just go back to the imperial fists. But it would be awesome to see him lead the Black Templars.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

I would want him to lead the Imperial Fists not the Black Templars. 

[MadGamerAK]

26 minutes ago, The Praetorian of Inwit said:

I would want him to lead the Imperial Fists not the Black Templars. 

After thinking about it for a while, I agree with you, while he is the Primarch of both, he should lead them.

[ZeroWolf]

I think it's possible that they would do his armour in such a way he could lead both and not look odd...sorry for the other sons of Dorn though that they aren’t even in consideration 

[Indy Techwisp]

Imagine if they do bring back Dorn and his new model has a mustache.