Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[jimbo1701]

Hi all. 

 

Chapter master valrak is dropping some space marine rumours next week and states that big things are coming for marines next year and that it refers to codex marines such as ultramarines, whitescars, raven guard etc. 

 

My personal theory is that those chapters are going to get the same upgrade sprue treatment that blood and dark angels have received, enabling each of the space marine multi part kits to have its own shoulder pads for the chapter including terminators as well as some unique heads, iconography and weapons. 

 

I also think there’s a good chance to use this as a release wave for units such as updated assault terminators, vanguard veterans and characters. Taking this one step further, games workshop have been pushing release boxes this edition and so is there a chance we will again see unique boxes themed for each of these chapters as we did a couple of years ago. For example something like this:

 

Whitescars - upgrade sprue, bike librarian, multi-part outriders and a few other units. 

 

Imperial fists - upgrade sprue, Lysander, assault terminators and a few other units. 

 

Iron hands - upgrade sprue, bike captain, multi-part outriders and a few other units. 

 

Ultramarines - upgrade sprue, sicarius, vanguard veterans and a few other units. 

 

Salamanders - upgrade sprue, Vulkan hestan, assault terminators and a few other units. 

 

Raven guard - upgrade sprue, jump librarian, vanguard veterans and a few other units. 

 

All massive speculation on my part but looking forward to hearing what is rumoured. Will be a pleasant surprise to be getting a second marine wave this edition no matter what it contains. (Though admittedly I’d have rather had upgraded grey knight models, which apparently are not coming this edition)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Until we get a rumor of a second codex for this edition I wouldn’t expect too much.

updated models for characters in the codex, and upgrade sprues is about all I would expect.

[Helias_Tancred]

What that guy said ^

 

Lots of possibilities, we won't truly know until much closer to release but I do have several iron-clad vibes on this. They are:

 

1. GW is not going to release a new and expanded upgrade sprue for the codex chapters. Never happening until a future edition and some serious time has gone by.

 

2. There will be a new release of chapter specific characters that are not present in the space marine lineup yet. Lysander, Kantor, He'Stan, Sicarius, etc. So really nothing new essentially.  I'm sorry but Raven Guard and Iron Hands each have just one named character and that is not going to change. 

 

3. New and better rules for the codex chapters. 

 

4. New primaris units we've been waiting on such as assault terminators, and vanguard veterans. 

 

5. IF there will be new marine units they will be extensions on what we already have, Outriders for example may see some characters on bike released such as captain, librarian, etc that can go with them?

 

And that's about it. 

 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

I've been expecting them to issue new upgrade kits for all of the codex-compliant chapters. That's not due to any amazing powers of prognostication on my part, nor any insider info. I just don't see GW maintaining two different form factors for chapter upgrade kits unless they were absolutely certain they couldn't sell enough of the codex-compliant kits in the new form to make it worthwhile. But I guess fortunately for GW, they run such an insane markup on their products that newer kits for even the less popular First Founding chapters will still be a license to print money.

 

AND it hasn't escaped my notice that all of the replaced upgrade kits so far have been on the market for a little over six years apiece. That's two full edition cycles, just not perfectly synced to the release of each edition. Space Wolves were the last of the big four to get their upgrade kit in August/Septemberish of 2018 so they're already past the six year point and are supposed to be getting their range refresh next year.

 

Ultramarines are well past the six-year mark on their existing upgrade kit.

 

The other vanilla chapters got their upgrade kits from August through October of 2019 (Scars being first, Fists and Sallies being last in case anyone cares). So they'll be hitting the six year mark in the latter half of next year.

 

As jimbo pointed out, Terminator pads would be a top priority for these new kits. Otherwise, it'll be interesting to see what they come up with - I would personally like to see White Scars get enough widgets to really embrace the Mongolian Horde look if players so desire, just as I hope the new Space Wolves upgrade features plenty of Viking-inspired bits and little to nothing in the way of actual WOLF bits.

 

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that I DREAM of such a thing as hope is probably the first step on the road to disappointment.

 

Anyway, aside from the new upgrade kits, I definitely do NOT expect to see chapter supplements this time around. It'd be a pretty crass move on GW's part (not that they're incapable) given how the rules team has completely ripped the subfaction element out of the game.

 

What WILL we see? Definitely some generic models (like the MPK Phobos marines, Invictor and Impulsor released alongside the 2019 wave). I don't expect more than two squad kits, but maybe they'll surprise me.

 

And DICE! Definitely, put your kids through college betting on GW re-releasing chapter-specific dice.

 

Otherwise... just more named characters. I pretty much expect what jimbo already listed there:

 

Ultramarines - Cato (look for Acheran to suffer another unfortunate mishap, unless they torture the timeline and try to say they're only following up on his disappearance after Shadowspear, even though his appearance in Space Marine 2 should have taken place years later).

 

White Scars - Kor'sorro on Bike (meaning that - as jimbo already speculated - MPK Outriders will either be one of the kits launched with this wave or at the latest, shortly after 11th Ed comes out a year later)

 

Fists - Lysander (I don't know if I agree that Assault Terminators will be coming out at the same time, but they certainly won't be held back until deep into 11th)

 

Raven Guard - Korvydae is the best bet, though I don't see Raven Guard getting TWO chapter-specific Phobos jump characters before the standard Phobos jump squad is released, so maybe we see the Primaris version of Vanguard Veterans released at the same time (again, jimbo already predicted VVets). Rules-wise, they could cluster in with the standard Tacticus Jump Captain, but I would still expect to see a generic Shrike-pattern Phobos Jump Captain drop alongside them.

 

Salamanders - yeah, probably He'Stan

 

Iron Hands - Stronos? I could imagine a bunch of possibilities for a non-named Iron Hands character, but as far as named characters he's about the only one I see unless they create a completely new character.

 

Otherwise, probably two vehicle kits, though one could be a walker type. That exhaust rumor engine is undoubtedly going to belong to one of them.

 

I should say that aside from the potential MPK Outriders, Assault Termies, and VanVets, we could see one of the following:

 

MPK Suppressors (don't laugh) with a second main weapon option

Grav-Rifle Fire Support Squad with an optional Infernus squad build

 

Edited December 28, 2024 by Lord Nord in Gravis Armour

[ZeroWolf]

I could see a Strike Force Augutus situation happening again, where a box containing generic kits is released, like multi-part outriders etc. That's all I would assume for the moment. Such a box would be easy to slip into the schedule, especially if it's launched in the same time frame as before (i.e. final 6 months of 10th edition)

[ThaneOfTas]

I could see multipart outriders and some updated character getting released, but my gut says Vvets and Assault Termis aren't coming until the 11th launch box. Outrider characters could go either way, and a hypothetical "Stormguard" bike vet squad feels like another launch box contender.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

OP: I laugh reacted only because the idea of an Outrider set themed for Iron Hands is kinda off-brand for the Chapter.

 

If the Iron Hands get another character -- any chapter-specific model really -- I can only imagine Stronos being it.  They can certainly make up someone new (they did with Feirros) but Stronos is the obvious choice.  He has two novels about him, for starters.

[Orange Knight]

I would love all of those things to be true. I don't think we'll see any particular units outside of characters being allocated to any of the codex chapters.

 

I do believe we'll see a new Sicarius and a new Lysander, possibly a new Vulkan - these characters are all very iconic and timeless.

I hope Pedro Kantor receives some love.

 

The most glaring omission from the codex at this point is an Outrider Captain.

I think the Outrider unit is pretty compelling, and they just need better character support. The lack of a mounted Captain has really hurt the White Scars in particular, I feel that thematically they have been more limited than any other chapter. In an ideal situation they'll actually get a unique "Outrider Khan" of some sort but a genetic Captain will be enough. 

 

I'm convinced that the codex chapters will get better upgrade sprues, however. 

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

OP: I laugh reacted only because the idea of an Outrider set themed for Iron Hands is kinda off-brand for the Chapter.

 

If the Iron Hands get another character -- any chapter-specific model really -- I can only imagine Stronos being it.  They can certainly make up someone new (they did with Feirros) but Stronos is the obvious choice.  He has two novels about him, for starters.

I don't think that's much of a stretch, I think usually when you see the specials, its the Face Of The Franchise prototype guy, and the black sheep stereotype breaker. 

[-DonCorleone-]

For Iron Hands maybe one of Gravis, Phobos, or Terminator Techmarine is more appropriate.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Feirros is a Gravis Techmarine.  If they want to give us generic ones, I'll take them too.  Don't threaten me with a good time.

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

After further review, I could see GW splitting the difference on character models and just updating Cato and Lysander while giving Kor'sorro an updated bike model. The former Shattered Legions are used to the abuse by this point.

 

I also have to sadly report that dice might not be actually be a lock.

 

Why not, I'll go ahead and make some actual timeline/product predictions, based largely on how things went in 2019. Again, most of these products were mentioned by jimbo in the OP, I'm just putting them on a calendar:

 

August:

Ultramarines new upgrade kit

Ultramarines new Cato model

Raven Guard new upgrade kit

Raven Guard POSSIBLE new/updated character model (Korvydae?) or bupkis

If not the above, then maybe a generic Shrike-Pattern Phobos Jump Captain?

Phobos-clad Vanguard Veterans

New Flyer vehicle

 

September:

White Scars new upgrade kit

White Scars new Kor'sorro on Bike model

Iron Hands new upgrade kit

Iron Hands POSSIBLE new character model (Stronos?) or bupkis

If not the above, then maybe a generic Techmarine on Bike?

MPK Outriders

(no vehicle as Outriders blur the line between a squad and vehicle release)

 

October:

Imperial Fists new upgrade kit

Imperial Fists new Lysander model

Salamanders new upgrade kit

Salamanders POSSIBLE new/updated character model (He'stan?) or bupkis

(Not sure what would make sense as a generic model in place of He'stan - if standalone Champions were still a thing, then maybe a Champion in Terminator Armor)

Assault Termies?

New vehicle - possibly a Whirlwind take on the Repulsor chassis with an optional build as a "pure" transport with no main turret

 

There's also still the chance that Primaris Vanguard Vets come our way via a Kill Team release, which would free up the squad slot in the initial release wave above. I wouldn't see them releasing MPK Suppressors so close to another jump squad release, so maybe that is where a theoretical Grav-Rifle/Infernus Marines multi-build squad could go.

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

Phobos-clad Vanguard Veterans

Ugh, please no. If there must be a Phobos jump squad let it be its own thing. Don't ruin VVets with that under armored, tacti-cool

 

Maybe stick some proper jump packs on Reivers, let them be proper flankers and skirmishers.

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

Phobos-clad Vanguard Veterans

 

Ah yes, put the unit screaming into CQC at 240mph armed with Hammers or Knuckle Blades the length of your arm the Armour that is uniquely designed for Stealth and Infiltration.

 

Seriously tho, a Phobos JP unit needs to still be somewhat Stealthy, otherwise why not just put them in Tacticus for pretty much zero downsides.

 

As for other stuff mentioned:

19 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

"Outrider Khan"

 Khan on Bike went to Legends too soon.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

<snip>

If White Scars get a named Bike unit, I doubt it will actually be Kor'sarro Khan, simply because just giving Kor'sarro a Bike is too sensible and GW know better than to pass up an opportunity to make you buy another kit and mess up the Lore at the same time, I actually predict they'll pull some kind of "Crossing the Rubricon Primaris has managed to save Jubal Khan! Buy your White Scars Chapter Master on Bike kit TODAY!" type thing.

 

As for Codex Chapter upgrade kits, I feel these are probably going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't wait until after both SW and BT get there's to start rolling them out.

 

Finally, updated/generic units:

Outriders need a Multipart kit and more characters ASAP, but I think GW considers them low priority.

Rather, Van-Vets and Assault Termies still need updating from Firstborn, along with the JP Chaplain.

Besides those 3, I think it's just Tacticals and Devastators left in Firstborn and they're the main 2 Firstborn Kits, so if they finally go/get updated I feel they'll save that for a proper codex and do something big with it.

 

As for Firstborn Vehicles, they're kinda just sticking it out.

Lots of stuff still uses those kits, so unless they intend to throw the production queue into total anarchy in what is looking like a very busy year for large releases, I think those will stay as for the foreseeable future.

 

That said, we don't actually have a proper Primaris "Rhino", only a Pick-up Hovertruck that carries 7(?) Marines like a Razorback, so if we get any new vehicle I do think it'll be a proper Primaris APC.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Ah yes, put the unit screaming into CQC at 240mph armed with Hammers or Knuckle Blades the length of your arm the Armour that is uniquely designed for Stealth and Infiltration.

 

Seriously tho, a Phobos JP unit needs to still be somewhat Stealthy, otherwise why not just put them in Tacticus for pretty much zero downsides.

 

As for other stuff mentioned:

 Khan on Bike went to Legends too soon.

 

If White Scars get a named Bike unit, I doubt it will actually be Kor'sarro Khan, simply because just giving Kor'sarro a Bike is too sensible and GW know better than to pass up an opportunity to make you buy another kit and mess up the Lore at the same time, I actually predict they'll pull some kind of "Crossing the Rubricon Primaris has managed to save Jubal Khan! Buy your White Scars Chapter Master on Bike kit TODAY!" type thing.

 

As for Codex Chapter upgrade kits, I feel these are probably going to happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't wait until after both SW and BT get there's to start rolling them out.

 

Finally, updated/generic units:

Outriders need a Multipart kit and more characters ASAP, but I think GW considers them low priority.

Rather, Van-Vets and Assault Termies still need updating from Firstborn, along with the JP Chaplain.

Besides those 3, I think it's just Tacticals and Devastators left in Firstborn and they're the main 2 Firstborn Kits, so if they finally go/get updated I feel they'll save that for a proper codex and do something big with it.

 

As for Firstborn Vehicles, they're kinda just sticking it out.

Lots of stuff still uses those kits, so unless they intend to throw the production queue into total anarchy in what is looking like a very busy year for large releases, I think those will stay as for the foreseeable future.

 

That said, we don't actually have a proper Primaris "Rhino", only a Pick-up Hovertruck that carries 7(?) Marines like a Razorback, so if we get any new vehicle I do think it'll be a proper Primaris APC.

Yeah I’m still upset about the impulsor.

its the worst of both the rhino and the razorback.

it has the transport capacity of the razorback, and basically rhino level firepower no matter what loadout you give it. (Bright side the shield make is decently durable.)

[Helias_Tancred]

I will stand resolute in my belief of no new codex chapter upgrade sprues! lol ;)

 

 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Ah yes, put the unit screaming into CQC at 240mph armed with Hammers or Knuckle Blades the length of your arm the Armour that is uniquely designed for Stealth and Infiltration.

 

 

Old (and fallacious) argument. Phobos isn't "uniquely designed" for Stealth and Infiltration - no need for the italics. Again, it's not like I'm unaware of this argument - unlike you, I'm just aware of how incomplete it is.

 

Not that I don't appreciate the sanctimony, but in case you feel like actually being as correct as you are (over)confident on this issue in the future, you might want to check the numerous times that Phobos armor's superior MOBILITY has been mentioned in various GW sources.

 

Gee, you think maybe greater MOBILITY might be important to a melee-focused jump squad?

 

I'll wait.

 

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

Gee, you think maybe greater MOBILITY might be important to a melee-focused jump squad?

 

I'll wait.

 

A few points.

1) It's Mobility at the cost of defence, like how Gravis has defence at the cost of mobility. For a dedicated CQC unit that isn't expected to be getting the element of surprise and/or inflicting sheer terror like the Reivers, having a lower defence just means that if they don't kill on the way in, they're at a far great risk of return strikes.

 

2) JPAI are already a melee-focused jump unit and they use Tacticus. There's no real reason why not to put Van-Vets in Tacticus as well, seeing as they're just Veteran JPAIs now.

 

3) We already have one Phobos Jump unit so we can see what GW thinks a Phobos JP unit looks like by looking at them. That unit is Shrike and he doesn't really seem to lend himself to leading Van-Vets, tho that's imo. He does look like a neat thing to base a new Phobos JP unit off, just not really Van-Vets.

[Tacitus]

1)  Its not really a cost of defense at least not in the rules.  Its a fluffy cost.  In theory Phobos that are caught without their stealth would suffer the death by a thousand cuts faster than Tacticus or Gravis - in game play, meh.  Its a story based vulnerability not a rules based one.

 

2) The reason is whatever GW fluffs it to - for example: Vanguard Vets use Phobos tactics on the ground to stay hidden between Jumps for maximum Shock and Awe when they scream down for an assault.

 

3) Shrike is one of the main reasons to think Vanguard Vets are in Phobos come re-release.  He's traditionally placed in Vanguard Vet units.  When VV don't suck.  Another potential reason is providing more Phobos keyword armor - especially in 1st Company.  Vanguard Vets can be hit by Vanguard Det Phobos Strats and 1st Company Det "veteran" strats.

 

What you're looking for is this:  BA are more consistently the Jump Pack Unit and not as Phobos oriented.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

5 hours ago, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

 

Old (and fallacious) argument. Phobos isn't "uniquely designed" for Stealth and Infiltration - no need for the italics. Again, it's not like I'm unaware of this argument - unlike you, I'm just aware of how incomplete it is.

 

Not that I don't appreciate the sanctimony, but in case you feel like actually being as correct as you are (over)confident on this issue in the future, you might want to check the numerous times that Phobos armor's superior MOBILITY has been mentioned in various GW sources.

 

Gee, you think maybe greater MOBILITY might be important to a melee-focused jump squad?

 

I'll wait.

 

Never had much issue getting my aggressors into melee either.

tables are so small, and terrain relatively pointless now, that getting units into melee is pretty easy.

[Tacitus]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Never had much issue getting my aggressors into melee either.

tables are so small, and terrain relatively pointless now, that getting units into melee is pretty easy.

Yeah, even if the tables weren't smaller, its not hard to get them into melee, especially with Calgar.  Move 6-11 inches, Shoot, Charge 2-12.  Even without Calgar, You can pick up what you need from Stormlance and other places.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah, even if the tables weren't smaller, its not hard to get them into melee, especially with Calgar.  Move 6-11 inches, Shoot, Charge 2-12.  Even without Calgar, You can pick up what you need from Stormlance and other places.

Or even just put them in reserve, and bring them in 9” from whatever you think you might want to kill.

 

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Tacitus]

42 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Or even just put them in reserve, and bring them in 9” from whatever you think you might want to kill.

 

 

They're not Terminators?  They don't deep strike?

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

They're not Terminators?  They don't deep strike?

 

I think one of the BA detachments let's you do that with JP units.

[Tacitus]

53 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I think one of the BA detachments let's you do that with JP units.

Aggressors aren't JP Units? Aggressors are the beefy Gravis Rank and File Calgar types with two gun fisted minis?