Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Indy Techwisp]

18 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Aggressors aren't JP Units? Aggressors are the beefy Gravis Rank and File Calgar types with two gun fisted minis? 

 

Y'know, I missed that we'd moved away from talking about Van-Vets.

[jimbo1701]

So the rumours are out and it’s the following:

 

Imperial fists - lysander

salamanders - he stan 

iron hands - terminator character, unclear if named

white scars - jetbike character (rumour engine?) - unclear if named. 
raven guard - character model and also a unit, ?fast attack. 
 

also more second wave rumours to come at some point. 

[Lord Nord in Gravis Armour]

On 12/29/2024 at 9:01 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Never had much issue getting my aggressors into melee either.

tables are so small, and terrain relatively pointless now, that getting units into melee is pretty easy.

 

Emperor grant me strength...

 

I'm not talking about Phobos having greater mobility from a RULES perspective. I am talking about it being described that way from a LORE perspective.

 

If Vanguard Vets are moved to Phobos armor, it's because Jes Goodwin and his team made a LORE-based decision to do so. The rules either supporting that decision or making it a complete non-issue (as you're doing) would have happened years later.

[Tacitus]

On 1/2/2025 at 8:35 AM, Lord Nord in Gravis Armour said:

 

Emperor grant me strength...

 

I'm not talking about Phobos having greater mobility from a RULES perspective. I am talking about it being described that way from a LORE perspective.

 

If Vanguard Vets are moved to Phobos armor, it's because Jes Goodwin and his team made a LORE-based decision to do so. The rules either supporting that decision or making it a complete non-issue (as you're doing) would have happened years later.

I'd guess if Vanguard Vets move to Phobos Armor it'll be because of rules, not fluff.  IF we see it, it'll be to provide more Phobos units for Phobos theme armies/Dets.  Infiltrators/Incursors, Reivers, Eliminators, and Suppressors that have never been released solo AFAIK.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

and Suppressors that have never been released solo AFAIK.

Suppressors are apparently wearing, MkX "Omni" Armour, not Phobos.

Omni just being normal Tacticus with some random stuff bolted on rather than a specific "loadout" like Gravis or Phobos.

[Tacitus]

15 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Suppressors are apparently wearing, MkX "Omni" Armour, not Phobos.

Omni just being normal Tacticus with some random stuff bolted on rather than a specific "loadout" like Gravis or Phobos.

Omnis Armor has some Phobos components to it apparently but the main point was that they're one of the few units traditionally in the Phobos theme Det - The Vanguard Spearhead Army of Renown from Vigilus.  Even adding Scout Squads doesn't really fill the melee or the fast mover problem the "traditional" makeup of the army has. 

[HeadlessCross]

The real tragedy is not getting Suppressor and Eliminator kits and them being stuck in 3 man squads. 

[jimbo1701]

The legacy of the shadow spear models. Amazing at the time but I think we all assumed models such as the suppressors, Phobos lt, venomcrawler and obliterators would have multiparty models nearly 5 years on. 

[ThaneOfTas]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The real tragedy is not getting Suppressor and Eliminator kits and them being stuck in 3 man squads. 

Eliminators did get a MPK though? thats why they can take options like the Las-Fusil and the Carbine.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, ThaneOfTas said:

Eliminators did get a MPK though? thats why they can take options like the Las-Fusil and the Carbine.

They did, I keep eyeing that kit up to add some more to my army, as at the moment I've only got the three that came in that set with the other phobos stuff (via Imperium magazine in my case). To the best of my knowledge, there is only 3 SM units (not counting characters) that aren't multipart kits. Ironically they're all from different editions as well.

 

Suppressors (8th edition)

Outriders (9th edition)

Infernus Marines (10th edition)*

 

*on reflection, these may not count as they don't have any upgrades unless GW add anything in 11th but I guess outriders fall into the same category.

 

I think there's more characters that aren't available on their own (outside of Ebay) mind

[Tacitus]

Most of the ETB/PressFit etc kits don't have an optional build until they get their MPK.

[jimbo1701]

I got my hopes up when they released an mpk ancient and gravis cap 2 years ago. Hopefully we will see the indomitus starter characters get MPKs before the end of 11th. If not it may well be that the judiciar / alt chaplain / Phobos lt / lt with combi-weapon / biologis remain just available on the push fit starter sprues.

[ZeroWolf]

3 hours ago, jimbo1701 said:

I got my hopes up when they released an mpk ancient and gravis cap 2 years ago. Hopefully we will see the indomitus starter characters get MPKs before the end of 11th. If not it may well be that the judiciar / alt chaplain / Phobos lt / lt with combi-weapon / biologis remain just available on the push fit starter sprues.

Don't forget the Bladeguard Ancient. Love the indomitus Chaplain sculpt, I never bothered to get the normal primaris one

[DemonGSides]

On 1/4/2025 at 5:59 AM, ThaneOfTas said:

Eliminators did get a MPK though? thats why they can take options like the Las-Fusil and the Carbine.

 

I think the 3 man comment was aimed at eliminators in specific, whereas suppressors have the issue of both problems.

 

Though a unit of 6 eliminators being lead sounds downright dastardly.

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I think the 3 man comment was aimed at eliminators in specific, whereas suppressors have the issue of both problems.

 

Though a unit of 6 eliminators being lead sounds downright dastardly.

I could've worded that better yes, but I don't like that regardless. 

 

6 Eliminators wouldn't be a problem since Legends Sniper Scouts weren't a problem at the price point either. Remember, GW is too afraid to make Snipers GOOD at their job. It's a reasonable fear of course, but if a Vindicare that can legit one shot any character in the game is just okay, 6 man Eliminators aren't going to be an issue. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

I could've worded that better yes, but I don't like that regardless. 

 

6 Eliminators wouldn't be a problem since Legends Sniper Scouts weren't a problem at the price point either. Remember, GW is too afraid to make Snipers GOOD at their job. It's a reasonable fear of course, but if a Vindicare that can legit one shot any character in the game is just okay, 6 man Eliminators aren't going to be an issue. 

I have multiple issues with 3 units.  100 does not divide by 3.  Outside of a Vehicle Squadron (type unit) 3 is pretty much not enough bodies for Marine units to do their thing.  I'd prefer to see all the 3 and/or 3-6, 3+ etc Infantry units go to 5 or 5-10 just for those two reasons.  I'd also like to see some bonus to taking the 10 that more than offsets the downside of BLAST.  As for Eliminators, I'd say 5-10, and Precision triggers on a Crit Hit, Dev Wounds on a Crit Wound. 

[Evil Eye]

The Vindicare comparison doesn't quite work, if only because Vindicare Assassins are supposed to be the best snipers in the entire galaxy, and are also frightfully rare (they're unlikely to take to the field unless the High Lords REALLY need someone dead). An Astartes sniper is going to be very good at their job, but even Telion isn't going to be on par with a Vindicare; quite aside from anything else, a Space Marine has to be a well-rounded warrior who can adapt to any battlefield role (with some specialization in certain fields) whereas a Vindicare's existence begins and ends at "makes people dead from very far away".

 

As far as Eliminators getting bigger unit sizes, I think 6 is the maximum you'd want anyway. Snipers aren't really meant to hang around in large groups after all! The issue of fixed squad sizes definitely doesn't help them.

 

If we do get new Vanguard Vets (and I see no reason we won't) I'd rather they not be in Phobos and instead just get the same treatment as Sternguard: a straight port of the design concept to Primaris. Well, obviously I'd rather they just got a proper upscale but kept their Mk.7/Mk.8 armour but them's the breaks I guess. To be honest the biggest loss for them getting updated will be the jump packs. I hate the Primaris jump packs.

 

Multipart Outriders would be nice, seems weird that bikes are stuck with ETB. Would be nice if they added a proper attack bike update; they could make the Marine-o Kart less redundant by giving the attack bike the option of a heavy bolter or another gun (autocannon maybe?) so they're filling slightly different niches. Suppressors meanwhile can go straight to Legends. They're just silly both conceptually and in execution.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

The Vindicare comparison doesn't quite work, if only because Vindicare Assassins are supposed to be the best snipers in the entire galaxy, and are also frightfully rare (they're unlikely to take to the field unless the High Lords REALLY need someone dead). An Astartes sniper is going to be very good at their job, but even Telion isn't going to be on par with a Vindicare; quite aside from anything else, a Space Marine has to be a well-rounded warrior who can adapt to any battlefield role (with some specialization in certain fields) whereas a Vindicare's existence begins and ends at "makes people dead from very far away".

 

As far as Eliminators getting bigger unit sizes, I think 6 is the maximum you'd want anyway. Snipers aren't really meant to hang around in large groups after all! The issue of fixed squad sizes definitely doesn't help them.

 

If we do get new Vanguard Vets (and I see no reason we won't) I'd rather they not be in Phobos and instead just get the same treatment as Sternguard: a straight port of the design concept to Primaris. Well, obviously I'd rather they just got a proper upscale but kept their Mk.7/Mk.8 armour but them's the breaks I guess. To be honest the biggest loss for them getting updated will be the jump packs. I hate the Primaris jump packs.

 

Multipart Outriders would be nice, seems weird that bikes are stuck with ETB. Would be nice if they added a proper attack bike update; they could make the Marine-o Kart less redundant by giving the attack bike the option of a heavy bolter or another gun (autocannon maybe?) so they're filling slightly different niches. Suppressors meanwhile can go straight to Legends. They're just silly both conceptually and in execution.

Yeah I'm OK with 5 and only 5 Eliminators similar to 5 and only 5 Desolators.  But even 5-10 Eliminators isn't that bad (most of the time) it can rough up the Aeldari I think- thus why I'd say only giving Precision on the Crit Hits.  I despise 3 and 3-6.  Its finger nails on chalkboard to me.  

 

If we do get new Vanguard Vets my guess is 90% likely to be Tacticus armor for their Blood Angel tie-ins rather than Phobos for Vanguard Dets and Raven Guard tie-ins.  The biggest loss for Vanguard Vets was already the Heirloom Weapons.  Until they come up with something better - probably just a straight drag and drop of the Black Knight Corvus hammer Anti-Everything 4+ on the charge.

 

Of course they may want to save that for the Outrider MPK kit though Thunderous Impact is probably good enough.  My guess is the MPK kit for Outriders should probably include some sort of shooty upgrade i.e. replace Astartes Chainswords with (dinky Close Combat Weapon) and 2x "Gunslinger" Plasma Pistols.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

On 12/30/2024 at 1:11 AM, Tacitus said:

They're not Terminators?  They don't deep strike?

I never said deep strike did I?

I said reserve.