Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Dr. Clock]

Re: VGV - not unlikely they'll get the Sang Guard and Bladeguard and Sword Brethren and Inner Circle treatment and go to 3/6 instead of 5/10... Which I'd honestly be okay with, especially if they get the extra W that Primaris Veterans and Chosen have accrued.

 

15 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I don't think they should do Strike/sweep to give them both LC and TH profiles - I think each choice could/should have Strike/Sweep Profiles.   I'd prefer 2LC just get an extra Damage, maybe an extra attack.  The Thunder Hammers should get a High Power Mode that gives them something like  2A, S12, D3 or similar for vs Vehicles and Monsters.  

The confounding factor to my mind ends up being the storm shield more than the thunder hammer tbh. I'm okay with the idea that the extra defense on them means that the lightning claws can outperform them in pure damage terms so that my squad ends up with like a 2:3 split and I feel good about that rather than bad lol.

 

I'd be okay if both options get multi-mode profiles, that just seems less likely to me than that becoming the 'special feature of claws' to make up for the -1 W. On spec I'd say lightning claw sweep could be '6A WS3+ S4 AP-2 Dmg1 Twin-linked' (Aka slaughter anything 1W), then make the smash '4A WS3+ S6 AP-2 Dmg2 Twin-linked' (also slaughter many MeQ)... At that point I'd probably put two in a unit just to make sure that I can clear 1 and 2W trash pretty cleanly on top of the hammer swings for some vehicle/monster coverage. At that point Thunder hammers maybe need a slight shine to S9 so they can bash doors off basic transports. Adding a smash attack for them at S:12 is a cool idea, but we need to remember that Oath giving +1 to wound could see them then wounding landraiders on 3s, which starts to feel a bit out of hand for a one-handed hammer swing honestly.

 

In order of preference for me to warant including at least some LCs in a unit:

 

1: Just make lightning claws better by giving them damage 2.

2: Give lightning claws slash/stab 1/2 damage modes.

3: Combine both weapon profiles into a single strike/sweep for the whole unit (pretty unlikely tbf)

4: Give both weapons dual attack modes

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[HeadlessCross]

Y'all are trying to make the Claws better vs MEQ where they were already fine into that. Killing MEQ or chaff isn't the problem. The problem is how much do you need more anti-infantry melee?

[Tacitus]

12 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Y'all are trying to make the Claws better vs MEQ where they were already fine into that. Killing MEQ or chaff isn't the problem. The problem is how much do you need more anti-infantry melee?

They're not fine into that - the Hammers are better.  Assuming everything goes perfect, Hammerrs can delete 3 Marines Per.  Twin Lightning Claws cannot - their top end is half a marine less - then adjust for Reroll All Misses Wound on 2's and Dev Wounds vs ReRoll to Wound and wound on 3's - Hammers are better vs MEQ than Claws.  Claws are better into GEQ but based on the fluff Assault Terminators theoretically shouldn't have a vs GEQ profile.   I'm also trying to improve Hammers into Vehicles/Monsters - the threat band for both versions Assault Terminators is not correct for the new system and their fluff. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

8 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

It's gonna be like the Sword Brethren kit where you have a bunch of unnecessary differences in the options. 

Maybe, maybe not.

 

i could see it as a cross between JAIs and BGVs

 

idk what you’re talking about with the sword brethren. They seem to have 4 choices for weapons and all make sense.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

They're not fine into that - the Hammers are better.  Assuming everything goes perfect, Hammerrs can delete 3 Marines Per.  Twin Lightning Claws cannot - their top end is half a marine less - then adjust for Reroll All Misses Wound on 2's and Dev Wounds vs ReRoll to Wound and wound on 3's - Hammers are better vs MEQ than Claws.  Claws are better into GEQ but based on the fluff Assault Terminators theoretically shouldn't have a vs GEQ profile.   I'm also trying to improve Hammers into Vehicles/Monsters - the threat band for both versions Assault Terminators is not correct for the new system and their fluff. 

They didn’t say LCs were better against MEQ, they said they’re fine into MEQ. There’s a huge difference 

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They didn’t say LCs were better against MEQ, they said they’re fine into MEQ. There’s a huge difference 

And I was disputing - they're not fine it was the first thing I said - they trail the Tank/Monster option vs MEQ as well as into Tanks/Monsters like they're supposed to.  The only time the claws do better is into W1 statlines or Duty Eternal type units which aren't that common.

[Medjugorje]

12 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

Re: VGV - not unlikely they'll get the Sang Guard and Bladeguard and Sword Brethren and Inner Circle treatment and go to 3/6 instead of 5/10... Which I'd honestly be okay with, especially if they get the extra W that Primaris Veterans and Chosen have accrued.

 

The confounding factor to my mind ends up being the storm shield more than the thunder hammer tbh. I'm okay with the idea that the extra defense on them means that the lightning claws can outperform them in pure damage terms so that my squad ends up with like a 2:3 split and I feel good about that rather than bad lol.

 

I'd be okay if both options get multi-mode profiles, that just seems less likely to me than that becoming the 'special feature of claws' to make up for the -1 W. On spec I'd say lightning claw sweep could be '6A WS3+ S4 AP-2 Dmg1 Twin-linked' (Aka slaughter anything 1W), then make the smash '4A WS3+ S6 AP-2 Dmg2 Twin-linked' (also slaughter many MeQ)... At that point I'd probably put two in a unit just to make sure that I can clear 1 and 2W trash pretty cleanly on top of the hammer swings for some vehicle/monster coverage. At that point Thunder hammers maybe need a slight shine to S9 so they can bash doors off basic transports. Adding a smash attack for them at S:12 is a cool idea, but we need to remember that Oath giving +1 to wound could see them then wounding landraiders on 3s, which starts to feel a bit out of hand for a one-handed hammer swing honestly.

 

In order of preference for me to warant including at least some LCs in a unit:

 

1: Just make lightning claws better by giving them damage 2.

2: Give lightning claws slash/stab 1/2 damage modes.

3: Combine both weapon profiles into a single strike/sweep for the whole unit (pretty unlikely tbf)

4: Give both weapons dual attack modes

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

thats what Black Templar Sword Brethren has. Usually 5A S5 AP2 Dmg2 or 6A S5 Dmg1

[Indy Techwisp]

IMO I expect a Primaris VanVets unit to lose the Lightning Claws entirely and go fully TH+SS.

I also expect updated Assault Terminators to keep both options with different profiles.

 

My reasoning here is that the current profile for the VanVets treats all the weapons as TH+SS anyway.

[Dr. Clock]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

the current profile for the VanVets treats all the weapons as TH+SS fancy chainswords anyway

Fixed that for you lol

 

I'd be plenty happy with 3/6-man TH/SS vanvets if they just get the hammers back, though. Lightning claws aren't as important to me clearly... but it feels like almost especially on the 3-man elite marines they like to bake in some options, though they haven't quite cracked to code on a good lightning claw design for Primaris yet that I'm aware of. Some more ninja-style vibes would be much preferable to 'powerfist with knives', though the Heresy more rounded versions are much better than the awkward ones in the current VGV or old assault terminators. I think when all the blades are lined up it just always looks too boxy, and they have tended to add too much crud outside the fist housing to the point it looks like a literal box of knives - I want some splay on the blades, and some different lengths for maximum Wolvie vibes plz.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Orange Knight]

I think the Vanguard vets are a redundant unit and shouldn't even be updated. We already have jump pack melee Marines and they work pretty well. 

The focus should be on getting support for Outriders - via characters and maybe even a new kit with more options.

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the Vanguard vets are a redundant unit and shouldn't even be updated. We already have jump pack melee Marines and they work pretty well. 

The focus should be on getting support for Outriders - via characters and maybe even a new kit with more options.

 

 

I agree that Outriders need some love but that does not invalidate the need (or at least the desire) for Vanguard Veterans. I have been a fan of elite jump pack dudes since way back when they were a Blood Angels special unit.

 

[Medjugorje]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the Vanguard vets are a redundant unit and shouldn't even be updated. We already have jump pack melee Marines and they work pretty well. 

The focus should be on getting support for Outriders - via characters and maybe even a new kit with more options.

I dont think so... It must not be like they used to be. GW could change them a bit to make them more ELITE.

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think the Vanguard vets are a redundant unit and shouldn't even be updated. We already have jump pack melee Marines and they work pretty well. 

The focus should be on getting support for Outriders - via characters and maybe even a new kit with more options.

You're kind of making their point for them.  If you can compare Vanguard Vets to a regular old Assault Squad Vanguard Vets aren't redundant, they're pitiful.  Vanguard Vets are the Elite Assault Squad like Sternguard are the elite Tactical Squad.

[The Praetorian of Inwit]

Vanguard Veterans are not redundant. Hopefully they do as they did with Terminators and Sternguard and just give them a nice glow up. Nothing stupid like certain rocket launcher carrying marines.

 

A proper mpk for Outriders would be nice. 

[TheArtilleryman]

Codex compliant chapters shouldn’t really have any unique units as that’s the purview of the divergents.
 

What they should have is additional rules that heavily encourage and reward a play style in keeping with the theme of each chapter. Whether that is changing certain units to be battleline and increasing their OC stat e.g. Bikes and ATVs for White Scars, Infernus squads for Salamanders etc. or some improvements in specific weaponry. We have some of this with the existing detachments, but it would be good to see them expand on this further.

 

I liked the special rules from one of the older editions where you could build your own chapter by choosing rules from a couple of different lists. Something like that would be cool to bring back.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Codex compliant chapters shouldn’t really have any unique units as that’s the purview of the divergents.
 

What they should have is additional rules that heavily encourage and reward a play style in keeping with the theme of each chapter. Whether that is changing certain units to be battleline and increasing their OC stat e.g. Bikes and ATVs for White Scars, Infernus squads for Salamanders etc. or some improvements in specific weaponry. We have some of this with the existing detachments, but it would be good to see them expand on this further.

 

I liked the special rules from one of the older editions where you could build your own chapter by choosing rules from a couple of different lists. Something like that would be cool to bring back.

That was the fourth edition codex of i remember correctly. Admittedly it was quite easy to "game" as you just picked the disadvantage that mattered least to your army 

[TheNicronomicon]

4 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Codex compliant chapters shouldn’t really have any unique units as that’s the purview of the divergents.
 

What they should have is additional rules that heavily encourage and reward a play style in keeping with the theme of each chapter. Whether that is changing certain units to be battleline and increasing their OC stat e.g. Bikes and ATVs for White Scars, Infernus squads for Salamanders etc. or some improvements in specific weaponry. We have some of this with the existing detachments, but it would be good to see them expand on this further.

 

I liked the special rules from one of the older editions where you could build your own chapter by choosing rules from a couple of different lists. Something like that would be cool to bring back.

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. Give White Scars a biker unit, for example, that is to the outrider kit as the hounds of morkai are to the Reivers kit. Or Raven Guard and jump pack intercessors. These palette-swap units could be customized with the Scars upgrade kit or just given the right paint job. They don't need full resculpts like more divergent chapters do, I agree, but it does give the chance to distinguish each of the first founding chapters and make them distinct without devoting even more of the product pipeline to Marines.

[Tacitus]

Yeah, I've got no problem with a datasheet for Tyrannic War Vets that use the Sternguard models and use an entirely different datasheet to get some vs Monster rules.  I'm hoping the new Wolves Codex brings them into the modern era by replacing Tactical Grey Hunters etc into the Intercessor, Assault Intercessor etc kits too.

[Orange Knight]

17 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

I dont think so... It must not be like they used to be. GW could change them a bit to make them more ELITE.

 

The Marine range is so bloated. They have what? 80+ generic units?

 

We literally have a close combat unit with jump packs. Do we need a slightly different close combat unit with jump packs? I don't think so. They absolute are redundant.

 

I honestly don't think this is good for the game. Look at some other factions like the Votann, or the Khorne Marines, or GSC. They make do with 5 - 10 units, not counting characters, to fill out an entire range.

 

I think the Primaris range is full of redundancy again now that they've started updating the old units. Primaris themselves are fine as a re-imagined Marine faction that echoes the 30k Legions, but then they started releasing the old style units like Terminators (which are still inferior to Aggressors on the tabletop, and have the same job).

[Silas7]

39 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Marine range is so bloated. They have what? 80+ generic units?

 

I honestly don't think this is good for the game. Look at some other factions like the Votann, or the Khorne Marines, or GSC. They make do with 5 - 10 units, not counting characters, to fill out an entire range.

 

I was looking at the list of units for BA Space marines vs Dark Eldar, the C:SM has like three times easily.

[Orange Knight]

I'm a bit confused with GW at this point, I must admit. They are saying their focus is on a competitive game, and it really is in terms of rules with their regular updates and erratas. So why are their models lines so uneven?

 

Whether you like the Primaris or not, they did change the design ethos of Astartes. Out went the generalist units with often superficial customisation, in came the specialists with more weapon and armour variation from one unit to the next.

 

But they didn't do it properly. They left too many units in, and were slow to retire the redundant options. There is absolutely no reason why both Gladiators and Predators exist simultaneously in the same codex.

 

And now with their refreshes of classic units - whilst it's really cool to have some of them back - their design ethos isn't the same as Primaris and wasn't updated.

It's how we've ended up with the underwhelming Terminator squad that keeps getting a point reduction every few months, and falls flat of other options like Aggressors.

 

And now the community, lacking any objective reasoning, is asking for more variations of existing units. Meanwhile if you visit the GW website, almost everything is sold out. They can't even produce all these model lines simultaneously.

What's worse is, they keep changing which unit is performing better during any given edition or following a codex update - and that isn't good for hobbyists when your chosen faction has 80+ units, and you might not even own a good chunk of them.

 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Marine range is so bloated. They have what? 80+ generic units?

 

We literally have a close combat unit with jump packs. Do we need a slightly different close combat unit with jump packs? I don't think so. They absolute are redundant.

 

I honestly don't think this is good for the game. Look at some other factions like the Votann, or the Khorne Marines, or GSC. They make do with 5 - 10 units, not counting characters, to fill out an entire range.

 

I think the Primaris range is full of redundancy again now that they've started updating the old units. Primaris themselves are fine as a re-imagined Marine faction that echoes the 30k Legions, but then they started releasing the old style units like Terminators (which are still inferior to Aggressors on the tabletop, and have the same job).

I think there's a key difference between a more battleline (well they should be, anyway) Jump unit like the Assault Intercessors vs elite ones like Vanguard Vets or Sanguinary Guard, in the same way Assault Intercessors don't make Bladeguard or ICC or Sword Brethren redundant (though those two can be argued to make each other redundant).

 

I agree there is redundancy but you're looking in the wrong place. 

[Orange Knight]

@HeadlessCross

 

Answer me this, what equipment do you want to see on Vanguard Veterans?

[ThaneOfTas]

5 hours ago, TheNicronomicon said:

Oh, I couldn't disagree more. Give White Scars a biker unit, for example, that is to the outrider kit as the hounds of morkai are to the Reivers kit. Or Raven Guard and jump pack intercessors. These palette-swap units could be customized with the Scars upgrade kit or just given the right paint job. They don't need full resculpts like more divergent chapters do, I agree, but it does give the chance to distinguish each of the first founding chapters and make them distinct without devoting even more of the product pipeline to Marines.

Wholeheartedly agree, giving each of the Compliant chapters a unique datasheet of an existing kit would do wonders to diversify them without actually bloating the range.

[ZeroWolf]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

I'm a bit confused with GW at this point, I must admit. They are saying their focus is on a competitive game, and it really is in terms of rules with their regular updates and erratas. So why are their models lines so uneven?

 

Whether you like the Primaris or not, they did change the design ethos of Astartes. Out went the generalist units with often superficial customisation, in came the specialists with more weapon and armour variation from one unit to the next.

 

But they didn't do it properly. They left too many units in, and were slow to retire the redundant options. There is absolutely no reason why both Gladiators and Predators exist simultaneously in the same codex.

 

And now with their refreshes of classic units - whilst it's really cool to have some of them back - their design ethos isn't the same as Primaris and wasn't updated.

It's how we've ended up with the underwhelming Terminator squad that keeps getting a point reduction every few months, and falls flat of other options like Aggressors.

 

And now the community, lacking any objective reasoning, is asking for more variations of existing units. Meanwhile if you visit the GW website, almost everything is sold out. They can't even produce all these model lines simultaneously.

What's worse is, they keep changing which unit is performing better during any given edition or following a codex update - and that isn't good for hobbyists when your chosen faction has 80+ units, and you might not even own a good chunk of them.

 

There's a very simple answer here: Money.

 

A slightly more complex answer is money and trying to stop opinion from getting too unpopular (it was unpopular, but managable). Another way to look at it, look at the reaction when the new terminators were revealed. You could hear wallets opening on mass.