Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Silas7 said:

I was looking at the list of units for BA Space marines vs Dark Eldar, the C:SM has like three times easily.

C:SM covers a lot more play styles than the Dark Eldar.   There may be 80 generic units, but most armies only have about 10 of those units that fit their playstyle/theme.

[Tacitus]

On 1/18/2025 at 6:09 AM, Indy Techwisp said:

IMO I expect a Primaris VanVets unit to lose the Lightning Claws entirely and go fully TH+SS.

I also expect updated Assault Terminators to keep both options with different profiles.

 

My reasoning here is that the current profile for the VanVets treats all the weapons as TH+SS anyway.

Sadly I expect Van-Vets to not regain any of those options.  They're going to stay Pistol + Heirloom weapon.  The best we can hope for is an improvement to "Heirloom Weapon". 

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

 

But they didn't do it properly. They left too many units in, and were slow to retire the redundant options. There is absolutely no reason why both Gladiators and Predators exist simultaneously in the same codex.

 

Backstock.

 

Edit to Add:  Well backstock and the desire to continue slow-walking the squatting of the First Born.  Most of us figured this was a rolling replacement - they didn't want to kill off the line, so they added new stuff, and would slowly take out old stuff.  I was only surprised it took them so long to make JPAI.  And that Assault Squads went out before Tactical.  I suspect Tacs will be next - and they will release either multiple new kits for each "element" (Flame, grav, las, melta, etc) or a Pick-a-gun re-kit for Hellblasters that lets them do 10 "basic" guns in each of the elements as a more direct replacement to Devs.

 

Quote

And now with their refreshes of classic units - whilst it's really cool to have some of them back - their design ethos isn't the same as Primaris and wasn't updated.

It's how we've ended up with the underwhelming Terminator squad that keeps getting a point reduction every few months, and falls flat of other options like Aggressors.

Their design ethos was updated - it was updated in the Index.  Vanguard Vets don't have the 10 guys with 10 different loads thing anymore.  Its Pistol + Heirloom Weapon or the silly Pistol + shield (Should have been shield + Heirloom Weapon)

 

Terminator Squads are (or were) underwhelming because there's no Terminator Lieutenant.  Aggressors were the choice because they had the most multipliers on the most "shots".  They got those multipliers from the Biologis (ersatz Lieutenant who got to double up Lethal and an Enhance multiplier) and a Captain/Chapter Master for a freebie (repeat) Strat Multiplier, and a bespoke AP multiplier.  The end of the bomb was too recent, but I suspect terminators can/will compete for space with the Aggressors now - though they're really opposite sides of the same coin.  The first choice is probably still the Aggressors, but the first choice for their "Wingman" is now probably Terminators. 

 

Quote

And now the community, lacking any objective reasoning, is asking for more variations of existing units. Meanwhile if you visit the GW website, almost everything is sold out. They can't even produce all these model lines simultaneously.

What's worse is, they keep changing which unit is performing better during any given edition or following a codex update - and that isn't good for hobbyists when your chosen faction has 80+ units, and you might not even own a good chunk of them.

I'm not sure "Sold Out" means Sold Out so much as New Wave incoming and we don't want to sell things that are just going to get returned by angry buyers because they want the new version, or the new value added boxed set.

 

Hobbyists who don't own 80+ Units either don't want to, or are still beginning their collection so I don't see this as that big of a deal.  You've either made a very specific themed army, or you've got a reason to go out and get your next installment.

Edited January 20 by Tacitus

[TheNicronomicon]

We're less than a month away from the holidays too--GW's warehouse folks were on vacation too, and I'm sure many a chunk of grey plastic was purchased before the holidays and then again once players got those gift certificates into their hot little hands. Wouldn't read anything negative into low stock levels right about now. 

[Karhedron]

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Terminator Squads are (or were) underwhelming because there's no Terminator Lieutenant.  Aggressors were the choice because they had the most multipliers on the most "shots".

 

There is more to it than that. Space Wolves have a Terminator Lt and had access to the same Enhancement (before it was nerfed) but the Wolf Guard Bomb failed to take off, despite a few people playtesting it. Aggressors have several key features that Terminators lack.

• Aggressors average 6.5 shots out to 18", Terminators get 2/4 at 24"/12" respectively. Even though Aggressors cost more per model, they get more shots per point.
• Aggressors get Ap-1 when shooting the nearest target which makes a surprising difference. Even volume of fire struggles to push through chip damage at Ap0, especially given the availability of cover in 10th edition.
• Aggressors have Twin-Linked on their boltstorm gauntlets. Full rerolls to Wound makes them much more effective when "punching up" against tough targets.

 

13 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Their design ethos was updated - it was updated in the Index.  Vanguard Vets don't have the 10 guys with 10 different loads thing anymore.  Its Pistol + Heirloom Weapon or the silly Pistol + shield (Should have been shield + Heirloom Weapon)

 

VanVets can swap their Bolt Pistol for a special pistol or a Storm Shield so Sword + Shield is legal but Pistol + Shield is not.

Edited January 20 by Karhedron

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

There is more to it than that. Space Wolves have a Terminator Lt and had access to the same Enhancement (before it was nerfed) but the Wolf Guard Bomb failed to take off, despite a few people playtesting it. Aggressors have several key features that Terminators lack.

• Aggressors average 6.5 shots out to 18", Terminators get 2/4 at 24"/12" respectively. Even though Aggressors cost more per model, they get more shots per point.
• Aggressors get Ap-1 when shooting the nearest target which makes a surprising difference. Even volume of fire struggles to push through chip damage at Ap0, especially given the availability of cover in 10th edition.
• Aggressors have Twin-Linked on their boltstorm gauntlets. Full rerolls to Wound makes them much more effective when "punching up" against tough targets.

I'm pretty sure I mentioned everything you just said - and that even the main thrust of your post was in the snippet you quoted - more multipliers on more shots.  bespoke AP multiplier, and so on were also mentioned.

 

That said I also mentioned that the design space has changed dramatically.  And that Aggressors are probably still the first choice because the game is fully about offense first, defense second.  But that pairing the first Aggressors with Terminators may be more effecient/palatable/popular/whatever than doubling down on Aggressors. Grail Knights were the bee's knees for my Bretonnians, but I didn't take a second brick before I took a big brick of Grail Pilgrims to partner with the first group. 

[Orange Knight]

Aggressors are better designed as a unit for a tabletop wargame, where as Terminators work better as a unit for a skirmish game.

 

I'm a broken record at this point with how many times I repeat this, but I can't believe they didn't take the opportunity to shake-up the wargear on the refreshed Terminators. In my opinion the entire squad should have either Assault Cannons or Missile Launchers - actually make them shooty. We already have entire units of plasma guns running around.

 

Going back to the general space marine rumors, I would like to see GW perhaps release a codex with different cover options associated with each chapter. I'd like to see a Salamander on the cover, as an example.

 

And we have some rumors about these various new characters for each chapter. I see no mention of Sicarius, and there is no way anyone can convince me that GW will skip the Ultramarines in the release wave if they do some more chapter specific heroes lol.

 

[HeadlessCross]

9 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

@HeadlessCross

 

Answer me this, what equipment do you want to see on Vanguard Veterans?

The basic 8-9th options of pistols and shields, then generic Power Weapons and Heavy Power Weapons would've been fine. As for a their bespoke rule since EVERYONE gets one.......no idea. The current one getting Lethal Hits is 10/10 lame. 

[Orange Knight]

11 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

The basic 8-9th options of pistols and shields, then generic Power Weapons and Heavy Power Weapons would've been fine. As for a their bespoke rule since EVERYONE gets one.......no idea. The current one getting Lethal Hits is 10/10 lame. 

 

I fundamentally disagree with unit design simultaneously allowing for high powered attacks, high defence and high mobility in all but the most unique circumstances - like a very fancy chapter specific squad such as the Sanguinary Guard, or some epic heroes.

 

Fast units shouldn't hit as hard.

Hard hitting units should be slower.

Having a mighty defence should carry a cost.

 

I never liked Vanguard Veterans for this reason, and historically when they were very good in prior editions, their wargear was often selected specifically to achieve what I outlined as an issue.

Edited January 20 by Orange Knight

[HeadlessCross]

27 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I fundamentally disagree with unit design simultaneously allowing for high powered attacks, high defence and high mobility in all but the most unique circumstances - like a very fancy chapter specific squad such as the Sanguinary Guard, or some epic heroes.

 

Fast units shouldn't hit as hard.

Hard hitting units should be slower.

Having a mighty defence should carry a cost.

 

I never liked Vanguard Veterans for this reason, and historically when they were very good in prior editions, their wargear was often selected specifically to achieve what I outlined as an issue.

Soooooo you don't like them because they can do a couple things at once, got it. 

 

To say they have a "mighty defense" is certainly a choice of words. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Aggressors are better designed as a unit for a tabletop wargame, where as Terminators work better as a unit for a skirmish game.

 

I'm a broken record at this point with how many times I repeat this, but I can't believe they didn't take the opportunity to shake-up the wargear on the refreshed Terminators. In my opinion the entire squad should have either Assault Cannons or Missile Launchers - actually make them shooty. We already have entire units of plasma guns running around.

 

Going back to the general space marine rumors, I would like to see GW perhaps release a codex with different cover options associated with each chapter. I'd like to see a Salamander on the cover, as an example.

 

And we have some rumors about these various new characters for each chapter. I see no mention of Sicarius, and there is no way anyone can convince me that GW will skip the Ultramarines in the release wave if they do some more chapter specific heroes lol.

 

DW gets 3 hvy weapons iirc.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

28 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

Soooooo you don't like them because they can do a couple things at once, got it. 

 

To say they have a "mighty defense" is certainly a choice of words. 

A 4++ is a pretty mighty defense. Especially if they get upped to 3W like so many of the chapter specific special units like ICC, and SG.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

Aggressors are better designed as a unit for a tabletop wargame, where as Terminators work better as a unit for a skirmish game.

 

I'm a broken record at this point with how many times I repeat this, but I can't believe they didn't take the opportunity to shake-up the wargear on the refreshed Terminators.

 

I suspect once they finish the First Born Replacement thing Terminator Storm Bolters go to S4 -1 D1 - to be honest, I'm surprised they didn't already.   The Assault Cannon is fading while the Cyclone is ascending - which is fine, the AssCan has been top dog for a while now, some rotation is good.  I'm hoping before too long, flame gets a chance to be top dog soon.  Its been a long long time since Flame was more universally popular.

Quote

Fast units shouldn't hit as hard.

Hard hitting units should be slower.

Having a mighty defence should carry a cost.

Meh.  Having all three should be rare.  Fast, Strong, Tough pick two for an elite isn't bad.  The Best of the Best Elites having all three isn't a deal breaker - especially when they barely have all three.  Vanguard Vets with good melee still would just barely have all three.  Currently they're not strong, and they're barely tough. if they had a decent melee profile they should be expensive but wouldn't be broken. 

 

More directly to your process here:

 

Fast and hard hitting should be a thing - I can think of any number of glass cannons that were, are now, and/or should still be a thing.  Not everything should be the giant war Tyrannosaurus Rex that makes the water in the footprint on the ground shake every few seconds of movie film when it takes one step with one foot then pauses for a while again.

[Tacitus]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A 4++ is a pretty mighty defense. Especially if they get upped to 3W like so many of the chapter specific special units like ICC, and SG.

A T4 2W 3+/4++ is a mighty improved defense but not a mighty defense.  That's not to say it isn't tougher, just that its not all that insurmountable - at that T you're rarely going to see fire that reduces your 3+ beyond 4+ all that often anyway - I'm not even sure I'd call T6 8W 2+/4++ a mighty defense because again, S6ish -2 D2 is what you're looking at coming in at you- so 4+ or 4++ is all the same.  When you get to T11, 16W 2+/4++ Now I'm going to call it a mighty defense. 

 

The defense isn't merely having a 4++, the point is what having the 4++ prevents.  MEQ with a 4++ only really prevents the occasional potshot from a lascannon.  You weren't (likely) going to be eating a steady diet of them without some sort of skew.

 

Pulse Blasters are S6 -1 D1

The other choices are S5 0 D1

Sunburst Missiles are S4 -1 D1

Shuriken Canon S6 -1 D2

Catapults are S4 -1 D1

Grav S6 -1 D3

 

Even switching to the more common "big guns" like a unit filled with Power Fists etc you're looking at S8 -2 D2.  So instead of 5+ armor save its a 4++ invuln but wounding on 2's.  Hellblasters with S8 -3 D2 is actually an outlier statline with AP -3 

 

So realistically you have to compare the defensive benefit from the likely incoming threats, and T4 3+/4++ is rarely going to get "full value" so to speak from the 4++ because so many AP values got chopped below -3.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

A 4++ is a pretty mighty defense. Especially if they get upped to 3W like so many of the chapter specific special units like ICC, and SG.

Okay, but they aren't W3 since Sternguard aren't W3. ICC and SG get W3 because they're honor guard units. 

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

We already have entire units of plasma guns running around.

And that was a mistake already! People were excited for new Terminators because they're an iconic Space Marine unit, and teasing us with new Terminators and then releasing them with "Aspect Marines" loadout nonsense would have probably gotten GW firebombed.

 

Also- if Aggressors and Terminators can't coexist, get rid of Aggressors, frankly. They looked terrible back then and they look terrible now. They're an unsightly relic from the early Primaris era; if we're going to be playing the "prune all the redundant units" game then they're definitely in line for the chopping block. And if the Great Replacement of Marines must go forward, at least let the replacement units be ones that can easily be proxied with truescaled Firstborn models rather than ReImAgInEd nonsense that nobody actually wants and doesn't fit in with what Space Marines are supposed to be at all.

 

Re: VVs, if we got the equivalent of the Sternguard kit but with jump packs, that'd be fine. I'll be sad to see the back of one of the last remaining Firstborn kits (must pick some up...) but if they're more like Sternguard or Bladeguard and less like Aggressors or Inceptors I'll be...less aggrieved?

[Orange Knight]

@Evil Eye

 

But keep in mind that Marine units aren't just being compared internally. 

 

Is a Hellblaster squad absolutely wild by the standards of 4th and 5th edition? Sure. But this unit is perfectly fine in a game filled with all sorts of impressive shooty and stabby options that exist across the various factions. 

 

Really, the issue lies with the Terminator squad and the wargear that remains unchanged after decades. I adore the unit, I think the new kit is actually one of the best looking Marine models ever... but I also feel they'd be better suited to a game of Kill Team.

Edited January 20 by Orange Knight

[Tacitus]

21 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

@Evil Eye

 

But keep in mind that Marine units aren't just being compared internally. 

 

Is a Hellblaster squad absolutely wild by the standards of 4th and 5th edition? Sure. But this unit is perfectly fine in a game filled with all sorts of impressive shooty and stabby options that exist across the various factions. 

 

Really, the issue lies with the Terminator squad and the wargear that remains unchanged after decades. I adore the unit, I think the new kit is actually one of the best looking Marine models ever... but I also feel they'd be better suited to a game of Kill Team.

Meh.  Up the storm bolters to -1AP and they're in better shape.  Return to Shoot Closest Infantry/Vehicle or pass LD and they get a whole lot better.  Being able to pick any/every unit as a target is one of the biggest problems facing current editions.  If you could screen shooters it'd be a different game.

 

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Meh.  Up the storm bolters to -1AP and they're in better shape.  Return to Shoot Closest Infantry/Vehicle or pass LD and they get a whole lot better.  Being able to pick any/every unit as a target is one of the biggest problems facing current editions.  If you could screen shooters it'd be a different game.

 

Yeah agreed. All bolt weapons are by design armour piercing, so all of them should be -1 AP, including tactical bolters. I know this is off topic now but try opponent being able to ignore the unit that is right on top of him to shoot my nice shiny thing over there is odd. Removes a whole layer of tactical play.

[Orange Knight]

5 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Yeah agreed. All bolt weapons are by design armour piercing, so all of them should be -1 AP, including tactical bolters. I know this is off topic now but try opponent being able to ignore the unit that is right on top of him to shoot my nice shiny thing over there is odd. Removes a whole layer of tactical play.

 

I disagree about the Tactical bolters or Storm Bolters. Any adjustment like this means the bolters for the sisters of battles, Chaos Marines and anyone else that wields one would also be adjusted. Also it would affect the bolters on other Primaris units like Infiltrators, etc

 

This is why I prefer bespoke wargear for units. You can adjust it for one unit without having to impact others.

[TheArtilleryman]

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Any adjustment like this means the bolters for the sisters of battles, Chaos Marines and anyone else that wields one would also be adjusted. Also it would affect the bolters on other Primaris units like Infiltrators, etc

Can’t do it mid-edition, but if I was writing 11th, this is exactly what I would do. 

[Orange Knight]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Can’t do it mid-edition, but if I was writing 11th, this is exactly what I would do. 

 

I wouldn't reduce the durability of multiple units just to boost a redundant troop option in a faction that is suffering from a bloated range. 

There are changes I would personally want to see but this isn't one of them, especially when some bolter wielding options are so cheap.

[Karhedron]

11 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Meh.  Up the storm bolters to -1AP and they're in better shape. 

 

Intercessors now get 4 shots up to 24" at AP-1 (as long as the squad shoots at a single target). I think the Storm Bolter needs to be at least on par with that. I would also make the Assault Cannon AP-1 so it is not limited to fishing for 6s to bypass armour and give the Heavy Flamer D6+3 shots. The CML is already in a good place.

[Orange Knight]

I think loyalist Terminators should be re-written to have new, more powerful, bespoke wargear.

 

-Indomitus Storm Bolter: 4 shots at 24" range, ap-1, rapid fire 2

-Indomitus Power Fist: Str 10, Ap-2, Damage 2

 

Give them 4 wounds and bump up the price. Actually make them elite. (These are the loyalist Terminators, mind - they have Primaris Marines inside the armour)

 

Chaos and other types should have their own, unrelated profile and wargear.

Edited January 21 by Orange Knight

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I disagree about the Tactical bolters or Storm Bolters. Any adjustment like this means the bolters for the sisters of battles, Chaos Marines and anyone else that wields one would also be adjusted. Also it would affect the bolters on other Primaris units like Infiltrators, etc

 

This is why I prefer bespoke wargear for units. You can adjust it for one unit without having to impact others.

 

Considering all war gear is currently bespoke, you don't have to.