Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Orange Knight]

19 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Considering all war gear is currently bespoke, you don't have to.

 

Since when?

 

A melta gun is a melta gun across all factions. A basic bolter is a basic bolter, a Las cannon is a Las cannon. 

 

The bespoke wargear belongs to the Primaris mostly, they have unique variants of other Imperium weapons in a lot of cases.

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

I disagree about the Tactical bolters or Storm Bolters. Any adjustment like this means the bolters for the sisters of battles, Chaos Marines and anyone else that wields one would also be adjusted. Also it would affect the bolters on other Primaris units like Infiltrators, etc

 

This is why I prefer bespoke wargear for units. You can adjust it for one unit without having to impact others.

No, it wouldn't change the Sisters and Chaos Marines because the ranged weapons ARE generally bespoke.  Primaris Era Terminators make their Storm Bolters out of Primaris Bolt Rifles instead of Bolters.  Done. 

[Orange Knight]

Technically, but they all have the same profiles across all factions. The only difference is the rolls to hit which reflect the model.

 

Unless named differently, and modelled differently, in most cases there is uniformity. The only cases that aren't so turned out to be printing errors. I recall the Multi Meltas on the Gladiator being Str10 for a time...

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

Since when?

 

A melta gun is a melta gun across all factions. A basic bolter is a basic bolter, a Las cannon is a Las cannon. 

 

The bespoke wargear belongs to the Primaris mostly, they have unique variants of other Imperium weapons in a lot of cases.

 

Since 10th edition?  That's why your WS, BS and Attacks are now attached to the unit's weapon, not the unit itself.  A Melta-Gun in the hands of a SM is definitely different than the melta-gun in the hands of a Cadian.

This was a big change that had a lot of grumbling about it but I think was pretty smart overall.  They try to keep them similar, but the whole point of going away from Equipment Lists was that nuance could be introduced on the unit level.

Edited January 21 by DemonGSides

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Intercessors now get 4 shots up to 24" at AP-1 (as long as the squad shoots at a single target). I think the Storm Bolter needs to be at least on par with that. I would also make the Assault Cannon AP-1 so it is not limited to fishing for 6s to bypass armour and give the Heavy Flamer D6+3 shots. The CML is already in a good place.

That's their second bespoke as a BATTLELINE unit.  I'm OK with Terminators not getting a second one.

[Tacitus]

38 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Technically, but they all have the same profiles across all factions. The only difference is the rolls to hit which reflect the model.

 

Unless named differently, and modelled differently, in most cases there is uniformity. The only cases that aren't so turned out to be printing errors. I recall the Multi Meltas on the Gladiator being Str10 for a time...

The Power Fist on the Warsuit is S14.  Redemptor Fists are S12 as are Brutalis Fists 

[DemonGSides]

Like, we aren't being obtuse here, this is what GW themselves have said about the idea of bespoke wargear per unit;

 

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/MNNVVPhc/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet/

 

From a preview article ABOUT 10th edition.

[Karhedron]

34 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

That's their second bespoke as a BATTLELINE unit.  I'm OK with Terminators not getting a second one.

 

Terminators have the same problem that Intercessors had in that hardly anyone was taking them. Their insipid damage output was a key reason why, especially compared to Assault Intercessors who the much more powerful rerolls to Wound. Intercessors needed a buff and got one. I feel Terminators also need some love.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

No, it wouldn't change the Sisters and Chaos Marines because the ranged weapons ARE generally bespoke.  Primaris Era Terminators make their Storm Bolters out of Primaris Bolt Rifles instead of Bolters.  Done. 

 

If you give the basic Marine bolters AP-1, can Thousand Sons get AP-2 on ours because you're kinda stealing our factions Bolter identity (we have AP-1 because we're explicitly using Inferno Bolts specifically designed to penetrate Marine armour)?

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I think loyalist Terminators should be re-written to have new, more powerful, bespoke wargear.

 

-Indomitus Storm Bolter: 4 shots at 24" range, ap-1, rapid fire 2

-Indomitus Power Fist: Str 10, Ap-2, Damage 2

 

Give them 4 wounds and bump up the price. Actually make them elite. (These are the loyalist Terminators, mind - they have Primaris Marines inside the armour)

 

Chaos and other types should have their own, unrelated profile and wargear.

4 shots at 24" maybe but not RF2 on top of it.

All power fists (And Thunderhammers, Power Klaws etc) should probably get a two-profile job one of what they were for small monsters and TEQ/Gravis/etc) and one Lascannon like profile for anti-tank/big Monsters to adjust for the new Toughness bands.

 

3 Wounds, 4 for Storm Shield is OK.  I don't mind a D3 weapon giving them a one-shot.  That sort of thing should happen, but rarely - and D3 weaponry is a little uncommon - Melta, Las (if you don't roll a 1) and a handful of named characters with relic fists (Calgar, Kantor, etc) Primarchs on their STRIKE profile are usually D4.  Drach’nyen is D3.  For the most part, the models that can one-shot a W3 Terminator should still be able to - "Cinematically" you're looking at Calgar, Abby and the rest going mano a mano with an entire squad of Shootinators and coming out on top as the Gods of War that they are but being slowed down by the Hammernators with the Storm Shield.  Then you shift into the Primarchs and they can one shot the Hammernators like Nolan Ryan pitching to little leaguers.  That's a pretty decent place compared to the fluff. 

[Tacitus]

3 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

If you give the basic Marine bolters AP-1, can Thousand Sons get AP-2 on ours because you're kinda stealing our factions Bolter identity (we have AP-1 because we're explicitly using Inferno Bolts specifically designed to penetrate Marine armour)?

Who said anything about giving the basic Marine bolters AP -1?  I mean they probably should, and 1KSons going to -2 isn't horrible because -1 isn't really "designed to penetrate Marine Armor".  They only moved bolters to -0 to encourage people switching to Primaris who got to keep the -1.  All we're talking about is the Storm Bolter on the Terminator Squad which has now been "Primarisized". 

[Tacitus]

39 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

 

Terminators have the same problem that Intercessors had in that hardly anyone was taking them. Their insipid damage output was a key reason why, especially compared to Assault Intercessors who the much more powerful rerolls to Wound. Intercessors needed a buff and got one. I feel Terminators also need some love.

True they do - There are a number of basic rules that all collect on the negative side for Terminators.

 

OC is still stupidly based on model count, not allowing for Points Per model variation, and it hits Terminators - especially when being used as Battleline.

They do need more offense - but not the same way they did for Intercessors - or else we'll have to go back and fix Intercessors again.  They don't have to be AS offensive as Intercessors - and even if they were it should probably be in the fists, hammers, and claws.  A4 S4 -1 D1 on a Stormbolter is probably top end for the guns.  That said, reworking Fury of the First to give reroll to wound vs OOM targets instead of +1 to hit might be the best option.  I think you were right they need some love, but they don't need an overhaul - small boosts, and fixing some of the major system-wide instead of unit specific problems.  I mean generally speaking the problem with Terminators isn't what they are, its what happened to the stuff you want to use them against and that they weren't adjusted to stay even. 

[Indy Techwisp]

12 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Who said anything about giving the basic Marine bolters AP -1?  I mean they probably should, and 1KSons going to -2 isn't horrible because -1 isn't really "designed to penetrate Marine Armor".  They only moved bolters to -0 to encourage people switching to Primaris who got to keep the -1.  All we're talking about is the Storm Bolter on the Terminator Squad which has now been "Primarisized". 

 

Sorry, got the convo mixed up.

Regarding Storm Bolters, I'd say we look at the "best" one avaliable and work back from there.

IMO that's the "Artificer-Crafted Storm Bolter" from the Battle Sister unit at AP0 and Dmg 2.

 

As far as I can find, no faction has a better Storm Bolter for the Imperium.

The Inferno Combi-bolter from Scarab Occult Terminators is just a normal Storm Bolter with AP1 for the aforementioned "Inferno Bolts" reason.

From experience, the AP1 on those doesn't really do that much and the SoB AP0 Dmg2 Storm Bolter still outperforms it.

[Tacitus]

11 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Sorry, got the convo mixed up.

Regarding Storm Bolters, I'd say we look at the "best" one avaliable and work back from there.

IMO that's the "Artificer-Crafted Storm Bolter" from the Battle Sister unit at AP0 and Dmg 2.

 

As far as I can find, no faction has a better Storm Bolter for the Imperium.

The Inferno Combi-bolter from Scarab Occult Terminators is just a normal Storm Bolter with AP1 for the aforementioned "Inferno Bolts" reason.

From experience, the AP1 on those doesn't really do that much and the SoB AP0 Dmg2 Storm Bolter still outperforms it.

Yeah, I just mentioned that -1 wasn't really "designed for Marine armor" so them going to -2 wouldn't be horrible.  But I'd go the other way - start with the basic gun they tape two together to make the Storm version.  Original Bolters are AP- and we're not going to change that.  That's probably why your Inferno bolters are AP -1 (They're not Primaris so its the Bolt-ER not the Bolt RIFLE which got to keep the -1 to "encourage" people to update to Primaris faster so they could remove the Firstborn.  Terminators are now Primaris-ified so the basic gun is the Bolt Rifle A2 S4 -1 D1  Storm Bolt-er/Rifle-er can go to A3 or A4 S4 -1 D1 pretty easy.  I mean sure the perfect world is for GW to give all bolters back their default -1 because the marketing plan isn't really a secret anymore and it just makes them look bad, but I'm not in charge.

[HeadlessCross]

20 hours ago, Evil Eye said:

And that was a mistake already!

You'd have a point if Devastators or Havocs or other Heavy Weapon squads didn't exist to begin with. 

Also I'm guessing you've not put together any Aggressors because it seems like those are the main people that complain about them (outside the "new bad, old better" people of course).

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

If you give the basic Marine bolters AP-1, can Thousand Sons get AP-2 on ours because you're kinda stealing our factions Bolter identity (we have AP-1 because we're explicitly using Inferno Bolts specifically designed to penetrate Marine armour)?

That would actually be a fix to give them an edge over the Flamers currently. 

[Orange Knight]

The Aggressors, when you actually put them on the table, look pretty great.

I don't understand this dislike some people have for them, the kit is perfectly good.

[HeadlessCross]

12 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Aggressors, when you actually put them on the table, look pretty great.

I don't understand this dislike some people have for them, the kit is perfectly good.

The "old good, new bad" crowd had a particular dislike for anything Primaris without even looking at the kit. Same complaints were made about Intercessors before as well. 

[TheArtilleryman]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Who said anything about giving the basic Marine bolters AP -1?  I mean they probably should, and 1KSons going to -2 isn't horrible because -1 isn't really "designed to penetrate Marine Armor".  They only moved bolters to -0 to encourage people switching to Primaris who got to keep the -1.  All we're talking about is the Storm Bolter on the Terminator Squad which has now been "Primarisized". 

This was me, I said all bolters should be -1… and I was going to say exactly what you’ve said about them encouraging the switch to primaris so basically nerfing bolters. Way back to 2nd edition and bolters were all -1 which was a big advantage that reflected the strength of the weapon. I suspect if they do eventually shelve the tactical squad and do “tactical intercessors,” we’ll end up with them all at -1 again.

 

There’s a section of a heresy novel where the traitors are sending waves of humans at the walls but the loyalist marines are ignoring them because they are saving their armour piercing ammo for the traitor marines. It’s odd that a bolter is no better at cracking armour than a lasgun.

 

28 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The Aggressors, when you actually put them on the table, look pretty great.

I don't understand this dislike some people have for them, the kit is perfectly good.

I agree, they look decent. The only minor gripe I have is that Calgar was supposed to be the guy with 2 fists, so they’ve made him a little less special.

Edited January 21 by TheArtilleryman

[Evil Eye]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

You'd have a point if Devastators or Havocs or other Heavy Weapon squads didn't exist to begin with. 

A squad of 4 guys with heavy weapons =/= a squad of 10 guys with plasma guns (except of course that have to be plasma guns+).

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Also I'm guessing you've not put together any Aggressors because it seems like those are the main people that complain about them

I haven't put any together because they look ridiculous, and are basically a failed attempt at replacing Terminators.

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

"new bad, old better"

 

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

"old good, new bad"

Putting quotation marks around it won't make it less true.

[Dr. Clock]

On 1/20/2025 at 1:57 AM, Orange Knight said:

We literally have a close combat unit with jump packs. Do we need a slightly different close combat unit with jump packs? I don't think so. They absolute are redundant.

I agree from a certain perspective, but some overlap in roles doesn't necessarily entail negative redundancy to my mind. At a certain point this is a bit like saying 'Eradicators and Infernus are redundant because Hellblasters exist'. All are dedicated shooting infantry, why do we 'need' them all? Why did we ever need lascannons when missile launchers existed? Should Warp Talons and Sanguinary Guard not exist? What about Obliterators vs terminators, Striking Scorpions vs Banshees or even Wracks vs Wyches?

 

So yes - there is melee and mobility overlap in the two examples, but there are other ways of differentiating units in a positive sense... and I'd certainly agree that they should be more different: Jump Pack Intercessors are built to be cheap (for a marine), and thus reasonable trading pieces, and they use weight of low quality attacks to fight near peers (punch down or sideways on infantry generally). Thus I'd maintain VV 'should' be the 'punch up' guys - fewer attacks, but actually threatening to high tier infantry, and mainline monsters and vehicles. Thus I'd make them a more expensive damage 2 unit, with at least a sprinkling of damage 3, and possibly a buff to W (3W marine elites are increasingly par for the course). I don't mind if they're a 3- or 5-man, as long as they give me a properly frightening melee blaster unit. In sum - make them effectively jump pack Bladeguard and I'll be interested, just as those are a cool compliment but not really replacement to the basic Assault Intercessor. Tuning them to be effective at 3-6 per unit rather than 5-10 is pretty key to this approach because it means the veterancy of the VV is actually conveyed by the number available in a given list - so even if you max out on boyh jump melee units, you'll still have just over half the number of veterans as mainline infantry.

 

Finally - redundancy is a feature not a bug when it comes to giving players opportunities to differentiate their collections from one another. With only 1 'jump assault' unit in a list we end up with hard cap on number of jump assault units available due to rule of 3. That's all to say that some people's themes are anchored in redundancy, and focus on specific things that render the rule of 3 overly restrictive.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I agree, they look decent. The only minor gripe I have is that Calgar was supposed to be the guy with 2 fists, so they’ve made him a little less special.

Meh.  I knew two fisted squads were coming long before Primaris was even a word.  I think they're doing it pretty well when it comes to Aggressors.  They have consistently made it so that him leading his "progeny" is a good little unit, and still kept him pretty unique and above and beyond the Aggressors themselves.  When it mattered he had a Master Crafted Power Sword.  His fists are better.  His "storm bolter" is better than their guns - usually being longer range, sometimes being a pistol, sometimes being a ridiculous AP2.   I'm not worried about Aggressors making Calgar second-class. 

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

A squad of 4 guys with heavy weapons =/= a squad of 10 guys with plasma guns (except of course that have to be plasma guns+).

I haven't put any together because they look ridiculous, and are basically a failed attempt at replacing Terminators.

 

Putting quotation marks around it won't make it less true.

As opposed to two squads of 5 with all Plasma Guns just somehow making more sense, yes? 

 

Also totally called it LOL. There's not a point to discuss anything with the "old good, new bad" crowd since they reject anything without even putting a kit together, let alone looking at the model on the table. 

 

Also the quotation marks exist for a reason. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

I agree, they look decent. The only minor gripe I have is that Calgar was supposed to be the guy with 2 fists, so they’ve made him a little less special.

I mean, before "only build what's in the kit" rules writing, you could technically have built characters (depending the army at least) with dual weapons. It rarely benefitted the model in terms of rules though, so it just didn't happen much. 

[Orange Knight]

You could make a character with two Fists, yes. Both are specialist weapons so you'd get an extra attack, but you would never do that because it was more beneficial to take a different specialist weapon with higher initiative.

[Tacitus]

45 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

You could make a character with two Fists, yes. Both are specialist weapons so you'd get an extra attack, but you would never do that because it was more beneficial to take a different specialist weapon with higher initiative.

I think it was more a reference to the Aesthetic.  Calgar's gauntlets were usually a single weapon, when initiative mattered he also had a power sword, and he had the guns - Making your own kept you from the guns and the sword - but like I said I think it was mostly about the aesthetic which wasn't as similar to Captain Double Fist as it was the Aggressor with guns slung under the fists the other "cool look" you saw on Grey Knights, Sanguinary Guard, Kantor, and Guilliman