Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Evil Eye]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

As opposed to two squads of 5 with all Plasma Guns just somehow making more sense, yes? 

 

I don't think outside of HH, Space Marines have ever been able to take 4 or more plasma guns in a squad. Devastators, being a specialist fire-support squad, could take 4 plasma cannons, and because that was the maximum you could take in one squad (which took a precious Heavy Support slot) and the cost of a plasma cannon was quite high, spamming them was fairly rare. In fact, to put things in perspective, if you maxxed out your HS slots with plasma cannon Devastators, you'd still have only two more plasma weapons than a single squad of Hellblasters.

 

And yes, I've always been quite honest and straightforward about 40K having had a significant decline in quality since 8th- and I say that as someone who was initially quite positive about 8th (coming off the back of 7th, at least). Just as you've been very forward about your beliefs that 40K is better than it ever has been, despite still complaining the rules are crap (which they are) and that GW needs to focus EVEN HARDER on balancing the games for tournament environments (which they absolutely don't). Your "old bad new good" is just as tiresome to me as my "old good new bad" must be to you.
 

Furthermore to your attempt at handwaving away my stance based on not buying models I think look ugly, I HAVE built modern Space Marine kits, and honestly outside of the improved scale/proportions (which could have been done without the Primaris nonsense anyway, and is as such a moot point) they're...fine, I suppose? The basic Intercessor, for example, is an OK design, even if the helmet is pretty much just a smushed Mk. IV, but the utter lack of variety in armour design in an Intercessor squad compared to the humble Tactical Squad is depressing, the bolt rifle is just a boltgun given the Mall Ninja treatment (and also contributes to most of the sprue space on the Intercessor kit being made up of now-useless magazine options for rules that no longer exist), and there's not even special or heavy weapon options for the squad. And that's to say nothing of modern GW's jigsaw-puzzle kit design meaning that you end up with harder kitbashes and far more seamlines to fill (Tor Garadon's cape is one such example of this; if you build him as one piece, you're gonna have a hell of a time painting the visible-but-hard-to-reach cape interior, and if you build it in subassemblies there'll be a nasty seam in plain sight). But hey, at least they're properly scaled, right? Oh wait, they made all the other non-Marine models bigger too so now they're still technically a bit small, if you care about such things.

So yes. Old good. New bad.

[Orange Knight]

The command squad could all take Plasmas, I believe? And the Sternguard could all take Combi Plasmas.

 

On the quality of kits - new kits have less customisation but they are far superior. The models often look more natural and many poses are better, even if they are repeated more often.

 

Some new models don't look as good as others, just like many old models are often just plain ugly. Old Scouts, Centurions and the Christmas tree Sternguard to name a few in just the Marine range.

 

And yes - the Intercessors DO look like MkIV Marines. This is intentional. The entire Primaris range is inspired by the success of the Horus Heresy.

They took the unit design ethos of the 30k Marines, but they also took advantage of having more artistic freedom with a new range in an advancing story. The actual designers of models like to work on the Primaris more, it's not just a profit driven decision.

Edited January 21 by Orange Knight

[Evil Eye]

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

but they are far superior.

Subjective.

4 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Old Scouts

Funny, I was building some old Scouts the other day; the heads aren't great, but that aside that kit gets way too much flak. Not quite as great as the 2E metals, I'll admit.

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

Centurions

Nobody is defending the Centurions.

5 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

and the Christmas tree Sternguard

There was nothing wrong with the last-gen plastic Sternguard, and repeating one line over and over semi-out of context doesn't change that. They were a fantastic source of bits for Marines, too.

7 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

the Intercessors DO look like MkIV Marines. This is intentional.

They don't though. The helmets are just slightly squished Mk. IV, but that's it. The rest of it is closer to Mk. VIII, albeit nowhere near as appealing.

9 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

but they also took advantage of having more artistic freedom with a new range in an advancing story

And proceeded to completely squander any potential it might have had in favour of erasing one of the most iconic parts of 40K to sell more toys.

10 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

The actual designers of models like to work on the Primaris more

I don't care what they like to work on more. That's not my problem. What I care about is that they're replacing something I liked (classic Marines) with something I don't (Primaris), especially as they explicitly said classic Marines weren't going anywhere, which as it turns out was a LIE.

[Indy Techwisp]

7 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

So yes. Old good. New bad.

 

There's more people playing 40k nowadays who's only experience with the "Old" is people complaining about all the new stuff constantly and saying that 40k died with 7th and GW have been beating it's corpse ever since.
Equally tho, the "New" we have nowadays isn't really that much better.
We still have horrible balance issues and a concerning amount of weight placed on Tournament results.

 

But being objective about this, think for a moment about what you're considering "New" and what the average 40k player nowadays considers "Old".
Yes, that "Old" includes Tacticals and Devastators, but it also includes wave one Primaris minis which are often pointed at as kits in need of updating.

The age range GW are primarily targeting nowadays is 14-18 for "newcomers" to the hobby.

For some of these people an 8yr old kit has existed for roughly half their lifespan and the remaining 1st born kits significantly more.

 

The Devastators kit is a decade old and the Tacticals are around 13yrs old. The fact GW haven't canned these yet is a miracle for a company who prioritise getting new stuff out for new players. Sure, their rules haven't been up to scratch recently, but these were expected to be replaced in 8th. There's only so long GW can continue supporting kits which are rapidly approaching an age where the Moulds that make them will fail (which iirc is what happened to the 1st born bikes this edition. The mould died and it would've cost too much to repair/replace it) and avoid invalidating the other Marines they're releasing.

 

I fully understand that some of what GW release nowadays is kinda... weird, like the Desolators.
But you also can't just dismiss everything out of hand just because it isn't Firstborn marines from 10-13 years ago with rules tailored to that edition.

[Orange Knight]

I agree that GW handled the transition poorly, and they did mislead people.

It was obvious that the new range would replace the old.

The transition was very slow, it has been going on for 8 years in fact. It allowed people to slowly transition across to the new range in their own time but if a person is adamantly against them it has also been a slow death to have to put up with. I understand how that is upsetting.

[Indy Techwisp]

13 minutes ago, Evil Eye said:

I don't care what they like to work on more. That's not my problem. What I care about is that they're replacing something I liked (classic Marines) with something I don't (Primaris), especially as they explicitly said classic Marines weren't going anywhere, which as it turns out was a LIE.

 

You have been able to field Firstborn Tacticals and Devastators (the main Firstborn infantry) for eight years after they were scheduled to be shelved.
You will likely continue to be able to use them until the mould irreparably breaks and they couldn't make any more of them even if they wanted to.
This is being done by a company who's idea of "for the foreseeable future" was seven months.

 

You're holding them to a statement made nearly a decade ago by people who I don't think even work for the company anymore.
The biggest purge of Firstborn stuff was this edition, so that's roughly 7 years of Firstborn Marines persisting alongside their Primaris replacements.

 

In industry terms, it's been an eternity.

 

EDIT:
I'd like to also make note that at least a few times we've had rumours of GW planning a new HH style game set in the early days of 40k.
I think the most recent "rumour" places it in the Badab War?
I'd say there's a decent chance GW is sitting on plans for a "Classic 40k" game based on the older editions with updated Firstborn marines, but they can't launch it because the Firstborn Marines are still bound to 40k and it's "No Shared Kits between Gamelines" policy.

Edited January 21 by Indy Techwisp

[Orange Knight]

I also agree with this. We are approaching a decade since the original announcements were made.

 

And we also have to keep in mind that this hobby isn't a live service video game. We can hold on to our physical models and rules for eternity. Keep your classic Marines and keep your classic rulebooks. Play older editions if you chose to.

 

I invested in almost 5 thousand points of Heresy Marines over the past few years, all fully painted now. That system exists as well.

[Indy Techwisp]

To play devils advocate tho, there is another arguably more annoying thing GW could do to Firstborn now.

We have rumours of Assault Terminators and VanVets getting updated.
These comprise the only remaining Non-Tactical/Devastator Firstborn units. (Not characters or vehicles. I am aware the Jump Chappy and Firstborn Tanks/Rhino still exist)
Of those, IIRC only the VanVets are rumoured to be Primaris, with the Assault Termies getting the same "it's not explicitly Primaris" treatment the normal Termies got.

Finally, one of the rumour engine images is a dead-ringer for the Devastator Cherub's wing.

What if GW simply remake the Tacticals and Devastators in the new Horus Heresy scale (which is actually truescale Firstborn iirc) and then do what they promised at the start of 10th and remove the restrictions on Firstborn and Primaris transport stuff allowing Primaris into Rhinos and Firstborn into Repulsors.

 

This upholds their promise to continue supporting Firstborn Marines (because they're still there), removes the issue of the mould dying of old age (because new mould) and would bring the Firstborn Marines in line with modern 40k detail wise.

It would also be annoying because they're gonna be larger than the old Firstborn, probably not compatible with existing Firstborn bits and will be constructed in the new "proprietary build" style of modern 40k.

[Orange Knight]

This is an interesting topic.

 

I don't believe they will merge the two ranges. They do have a focus on trying to keep the game somewhat competitive, for better and for worse.

 

This is why they moved all the beautiful Heresy vehicles to Legends - less units to update and worry about.

They also want you to buy more models for different game systems.

 

What I predict will happen is that they will update a few more iconic units, probably the Vanguard and Assault Terminators. They'll retire the Rhino chassis and all associated vehicles. We may still get a new Landraider and an Impulsor with more capacity.

Eventually they will start updating the Primaris kits, and when that update comes around I imagine we'll see a new "Tactical Intercessor" kit to replace the regular Intercessors. They'll have some more weapon options and the Sgt upgrades will be included in the box. 

[Indy Techwisp]

6 minutes ago, Orange Knight said:

This is an interesting topic.

 

I don't believe they will merge the two ranges. They do have a focus on trying to keep the game somewhat competitive, for better and for worse.

 

This is why they moved all the beautiful Heresy vehicles to Legends - less units to update and worry about.

They also want you to buy more models for different game systems.

 

What I predict will happen is that they will update a few more iconic units, probably the Vanguard and Assault Terminators. They'll retire the Rhino chassis and all associated vehicles. We may still get a new Landraider and an Impulsor with more capacity.

Eventually they will start updating the Primaris kits, and when that update comes around I imagine we'll see a new "Tactical Intercessor" kit to replace the regular Intercessors. They'll have some more weapon options and the Sgt upgrades will be included in the box. 

 

I'm not expecting them to merge 40k and Heresy.

I'm saying that they could release Heresy-Scale Tacticals and Devastators for 40k.

 

As for the Firstborn vehicles, they kinda can't go unless they also release a dedicated Rhino kit for SoB (theirs is an upgrade sprue), a Rhino and a Land Raider for Grey Knights, a Rhino and a Land Raider for Custodes, a Rhino for Inquisitorial Agents and the full range of Firstborn vehicles for Chaos (assuming Chaos don't just become the sole owners of those).

Edited January 21 by Indy Techwisp

[Orange Knight]

They'll keep the Rhino as a unit in 40k. It just won't be part of the Astartes line. I predict we'll see an impulsor with more transport capacity before long.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Evil Eye said:

I don't think outside of HH, Space Marines have ever been able to take 4 or more plasma guns in a squad. Devastators, being a specialist fire-support squad, could take 4 plasma cannons, and because that was the maximum you could take in one squad (which took a precious Heavy Support slot) and the cost of a plasma cannon was quite high, spamming them was fairly rare. In fact, to put things in perspective, if you maxxed out your HS slots with plasma cannon Devastators, you'd still have only two more plasma weapons than a single squad of Hellblasters.

 

And yes, I've always been quite honest and straightforward about 40K having had a significant decline in quality since 8th- and I say that as someone who was initially quite positive about 8th (coming off the back of 7th, at least). Just as you've been very forward about your beliefs that 40K is better than it ever has been, despite still complaining the rules are crap (which they are) and that GW needs to focus EVEN HARDER on balancing the games for tournament environments (which they absolutely don't). Your "old bad new good" is just as tiresome to me as my "old good new bad" must be to you.
 

Furthermore to your attempt at handwaving away my stance based on not buying models I think look ugly, I HAVE built modern Space Marine kits, and honestly outside of the improved scale/proportions (which could have been done without the Primaris nonsense anyway, and is as such a moot point) they're...fine, I suppose? The basic Intercessor, for example, is an OK design, even if the helmet is pretty much just a smushed Mk. IV, but the utter lack of variety in armour design in an Intercessor squad compared to the humble Tactical Squad is depressing, the bolt rifle is just a boltgun given the Mall Ninja treatment (and also contributes to most of the sprue space on the Intercessor kit being made up of now-useless magazine options for rules that no longer exist), and there's not even special or heavy weapon options for the squad. And that's to say nothing of modern GW's jigsaw-puzzle kit design meaning that you end up with harder kitbashes and far more seamlines to fill (Tor Garadon's cape is one such example of this; if you build him as one piece, you're gonna have a hell of a time painting the visible-but-hard-to-reach cape interior, and if you build it in subassemblies there'll be a nasty seam in plain sight). But hey, at least they're properly scaled, right? Oh wait, they made all the other non-Marine models bigger too so now they're still technically a bit small, if you care about such things.

So yes. Old good. New bad.

Command Squads and Sternguard (Combi-Weapons absolutely count) for Loyalists, Chosen and Havocs for Chaos. And then other armies got to do the same thing with Plasma or other special weapons. 

A bespoke datasheet is one thing to complain about, but it's ignorant to complain about a unit that was able to be made for several editions anyway. 

 

Also yeah I do handwave "new bad, old good" because there's rarely anything critical in it and it's just hating any change. If you hadn't noticed I do complain about a lot of the newer stuff (the Plague Marine kit being the biggest offender).

 

Also the auxiliary grenade launcher for the Intercessors is a special weapon. Whether the grenade launcher is GOOD is a different discussion, but an irrelevant one for 10th's point system n

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

This is an interesting topic.

 

I don't believe they will merge the two ranges.

Whoa what?  Where did that come from?  They're absolutely not merging the two ranges.  They just went above and beyond to separate them - No more of the cross over Dreads, or tanks etc.  I'd even go so far as to say that's just the current step - Marines will be losing at least the Rhino chassis stuff (already lost the Hunter and Stalker. the rest will probably go away so the Rhino can be Imperium but not Space Marine (Sisters of Battle/Silence) etc.  I'm not sure what they do with the Land Raiders.  I don't think they squat them, and I don't think they hand them down to JUST Custodes etc.  Its too iconic from the original DOW games - but they're definitely 

[Indy Techwisp]

9 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Whoa what?  Where did that come from?  They're absolutely not merging the two ranges.  They just went above and beyond to separate them - No more of the cross over Dreads, or tanks etc.  I'd even go so far as to say that's just the current step - Marines will be losing at least the Rhino chassis stuff (already lost the Hunter and Stalker. the rest will probably go away so the Rhino can be Imperium but not Space Marine (Sisters of Battle/Silence) etc.  I'm not sure what they do with the Land Raiders.  I don't think they squat them, and I don't think they hand them down to JUST Custodes etc.  Its too iconic from the original DOW games - but they're definitely 

 

I think the range merging thing is because I suggested GW may update Tacticals and Devatators to the new Horus Heresy scale since A) it's "True Scale" Firstborn and B) it would eliminate the threat of the Firstborn mould breaking from old age.

[Tacitus]

59 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I think the range merging thing is because I suggested GW may update Tacticals and Devatators to the new Horus Heresy scale since A) it's "True Scale" Firstborn and B) it would eliminate the threat of the Firstborn mould breaking from old age.

Oh I suspect we already have our new "Tacticals" but the old ones haven't been removed yet - probably for some second level issue like backstock or the kit is necessary for some bespoke unit in a divergent chapter etc - so there's no need to remove them until that Tactical + Upgrade kit (Grey Hunters?  something else?) is updated to the Intercessor + kit.

 

Devs are the one they probably haven't figured out yet.  They started with Hellblasters, Infernusators, and SORT OF Erads and HINTS - but realistically while Plasma is done, for a "real" replacement of Devs you're probably also looking for Las, Melta, and missile launchers on Tacticus.  And figuring out how to prevent 3 Hellblasters, 3 Lasblasters, 3 Missileblasters, etc. 

[Indy Techwisp]

30 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Oh I suspect we already have our new "Tacticals" but the old ones haven't been removed yet - probably for some second level issue like backstock or the kit is necessary for some bespoke unit in a divergent chapter etc - so there's no need to remove them until that Tactical + Upgrade kit (Grey Hunters?  something else?) is updated to the Intercessor + kit.

 

Devs are the one they probably haven't figured out yet.  They started with Hellblasters, Infernusators, and SORT OF Erads and HINTS - but realistically while Plasma is done, for a "real" replacement of Devs you're probably also looking for Las, Melta, and missile launchers on Tacticus.  And figuring out how to prevent 3 Hellblasters, 3 Lasblasters, 3 Missileblasters, etc. 

 

Regarding Devastators, there's a really simple solution GW could use, but it wouldn't be well liked...

 

The ever classic "You cannot chose an option already in this unit".

You may have any combination of 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Lascannon, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Grav-Cannon and 1 Multi-Melta. (Plus whatever fancy Pistol your Dev Sargent takes)

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Regarding Devastators, there's a really simple solution GW could use, but it wouldn't be well liked...

 

The ever classic "You cannot chose an option already in this unit".

 

I just felt my eye literally twitch. 

 

Which probably means that they'll do that.

 

I do still wish that they'd follow in Heresy's footsteps and just do a simple kit in Phobos, Tacticus and Gravis Armour each, then Release Upgrade boxes that let you turn them into Specialist Squads. And also opens the door for the return of mixed loadouts.

 

But that might require some neophytes to do more thinking before mindlessly purchasing so it wont happen for 40k.

Edited January 22 by ThaneOfTas

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

Regarding Devastators, there's a really simple solution GW could use, but it wouldn't be well liked...

 

The ever classic "You cannot chose an option already in this unit".

You may have any combination of 1 Plasma Cannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Lascannon, 1 Missile Launcher, 1 Grav-Cannon and 1 Multi-Melta. (Plus whatever fancy Pistol your Dev Sargent takes)

Oh I don't mean that way - I assume the solution involves taking the Hellblasters and carbon copying them with some form of Las, Melta, and Missile - the easiest answer to spam/skew is to have them all use the same datasheet or otherwise link the datasheets together like what they did with Captain/Daemon Prince etc in previous editions.  They all get the DEVEASTATOR keyword and you can only pick three DEVASTATOR keyword. 

[Orange Knight]

Do we need units that do the same jobs but in slightly different armours?

 

I don't particularly care for Tacticus with Meltas because the Eradictors have absolutely nailed that piece of wargear and look fantastic.

 

Aside from character gaps and a lack of Outrider support, the only weapon I would say is missing is the Grav Gun. I imagine we'll see a Grav unit in the future - perhaps a variant of Agressors with mounted Grav Guns like Tor Garaddon.

 

I hope they don't keep bloating the generic range indefinitely. I would rather see GW pivot to making new Marine units for the specific chapters going forward.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I've been hoping for a gravis armored unit carry gravguns for years now.  It's just the sort of obvious alignment in terminology that I don't think GW's developers would miss, or refuse to implement given the chance.

[DemonGSides]

8 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

But that might require some neophytes to do more thinking before mindlessly purchasing so it wont happen for 40k.

 

Seems pretty unfair to blame other hobbyists for GW's policies.

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I don't particularly care for Tacticus with Meltas because the Eradictors have absolutely nailed that piece of wargear and look fantastic.

 

I agree. In fact you probably want your Melta-toting dudes in Gravis as they need to get up close to the enemy to do their job.

 

So far we have Plasma covered by Hellblasters, Melta covered by Eradicators and Missiles covered by Desolators. I would like to see a Lascannon squad for long-ranged anti-tank work and maybe a Grav squad too. Then that is all the Devastator weapon types covered.

 

I don't really see any value in a Primaris Devastator squad because we don't pay for upgrades anymore which means GW would have to try to balance the different weapon options against each other (with predictable results). Now if the meta favours plasma, they can nudge up the points on Hellblasters without affecting other specialist weapon squads.

[Orange Knight]

I would be open to a Las Cannon squad... only if they retire the Centurions.

 

That kit is ugly (although I don't hate it), but the scale with Primaris is correct, and they can just update the lore to say they can be piloted by Primaris Marines, same as they did with the Terminators.

 

Centurions tick off several weapon variations. If they decide to keep them, I would like to see better integration with the rest of the army - characters, transports, etc

Edited January 22 by Orange Knight

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Do we need units that do the same jobs but in slightly different armours?

 

I don't particularly care for Tacticus with Meltas because the Eradictors have absolutely nailed that piece of wargear and look fantastic.

 

Aside from character gaps and a lack of Outrider support, the only weapon I would say is missing is the Grav Gun. I imagine we'll see a Grav unit in the future - perhaps a variant of Agressors with mounted Grav Guns like Tor Garaddon.

 

I hope they don't keep bloating the generic range indefinitely. I would rather see GW pivot to making new Marine units for the specific chapters going forward.

No, but we need them in Tacticus armor if we're talking about replacing Devastators. 

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree. In fact you probably want your Melta-toting dudes in Gravis as they need to get up close to the enemy to do their job.

 

So far we have Plasma covered by Hellblasters, Melta covered by Eradicators and Missiles covered by Desolators. I would like to see a Lascannon squad for long-ranged anti-tank work and maybe a Grav squad too. Then that is all the Devastator weapon types covered.

 

I don't really see any value in a Primaris Devastator squad because we don't pay for upgrades anymore which means GW would have to try to balance the different weapon options against each other (with predictable results). Now if the meta favours plasma, they can nudge up the points on Hellblasters without affecting other specialist weapon squads.

Probably, but you have to pay for Gravis and part of the Devastator thing is a lower priced heavy/anti-tank weapon squad.  There should be a regular power armored version of each element flavor.

 

I'd forgotten about the Desolators for Missiles - good catch.

 

The "value" is still having a "Devastator" type squad when they remove Devastators.  Same reason they added JPAI while removing Assault Sqauds.  Sadly they didn't include the "heavy" melee weapon (Eviscerators).

 

They still can adjust Hellblasters or Meltablasters, or Gravblasters etc. - I just explained it.  Give them all the DEVASTATOR keyword (And GW likes to do a little nostalgia recycling - look at the bespoke rule names etc) and Rule of Three the keyword in addition to the datasheet.  Only 3 DEVASTATOR keyword uses.