Space marine second wave rumours coming next week.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree. In fact you probably want your Melta-toting dudes in Gravis as they need to get up close to the enemy to do their job.

 

So far we have Plasma covered by Hellblasters, Melta covered by Eradicators and Missiles covered by Desolators. I would like to see a Lascannon squad for long-ranged anti-tank work and maybe a Grav squad too. Then that is all the Devastator weapon types covered.

 

I don't really see any value in a Primaris Devastator squad because we don't pay for upgrades anymore which means GW would have to try to balance the different weapon options against each other (with predictable results). Now if the meta favours plasma, they can nudge up the points on Hellblasters without affecting other specialist weapon squads.

 

I made a similar comment about a lascannon infantry unit once and it was pointed out to me that Eliminators already have those (las fusils).  They're not as strong as a full-fledged lascannon though so there's definitely an argument to be made they don't count.

[Orange Knight]

11 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

No, but we need them in Tacticus armor if we're talking about replacing Devastators. 

 

I don't think we need to replace them.

 

The Primaris range isn't a 1 for 1 replacement. Units have been changed, expanded or upgraded. There are lots of new units that didn't exist before, and they are able to perform functions that the original range could not. A few options have been lost, but their function can be performed by different units with different characteristics.

 

Also, the Desolators have an option that isn't too far removed from a las cannon. The Superkrak is a Str 10 weapon with good AP and D6+1 damage. Although, admittedly, the unit is currently too expensive. Another casualty of competitive abuse. The problem option isn't even this particular weapon profile...

[Indy Techwisp]

Moving onto a different part of this topic:

 

We're rumoured to be getting some new characters with this whole thing.

 

While Valrak has said whom he think Salamanders and Imperial Fists are getting, the remaining 3 are up in the air.

Also, of the 3, the one with the least info is the Ravenguard HQ.

 

So, who do we think the "probably terminator" HQ for Iron Hands is?
Who do we think the "on Hoverbike" HQ for White Scars is?

And who do we think the Ravenguard HQ is and what kind of character will they end up being?

[Tacitus]

5 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

I made a similar comment about a lascannon infantry unit once and it was pointed out to me that Eliminators already have those (las fusils).  They're not as strong as a full-fledged lascannon though so there's definitely an argument to be made they don't count.

Yeah, I'd be one of the ones making that argument - as well as the 3 and only 3 problem - if/when it comes to replacing Devastators.  It shouldn't be an upgrade, (relatively) more expensive, etc.  It should be a side grade to be a replacement. 

[Tacitus]

Just now, Orange Knight said:

 

I don't think we need to replace them.

 

The Primaris range isn't a 1 for 1 replacement. Units have been changed, expanded or upgraded. There are lots of new units that didn't exist before, and they are able to perform functions that the original range could not. A few options have been lost, but their function can be performed by different units with different characteristics.

 

Also, the Desolators have an option that isn't too far removed from a las cannon. The Superkrak is a Str 10 weapon with good AP and D6+1 damage. Although, admittedly, the unit is currently too expensive. Another casualty of competitive abuse. The problem option isn't even this particular weapon profile...

Its far closer to 1:1 - but occasionlly its 2 for 1, etc.  And if you're going to replace one of the most basic and iconic units it better be pretty close to 1:1.

[TheNicronomicon]

10 hours ago, Karhedron said:

I agree. In fact you probably want your Melta-toting dudes in Gravis as they need to get up close to the enemy to do their job.

I’d like seeing 5 Tacticus Meltas (or grav guns, let’s get nuts) on the firing deck in an Impulsor with shield dome. Gravis, alas, cannot do that. 
 

moving them to Gravis or 3-man units, or capping them at 5 like Desolators (elites or veterans like BGV or Long Fangs for example) could make it easier to manage abusable interactions.

Edited January 23 by TheNicronomicon
Triple comment somehow

[ThaneOfTas]

11 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Seems pretty unfair to blame other hobbyists for GW's policies.

My point was actually more that GW wants as few barriers to entry for the hobby, even at what i view as at the expense of the sort of creativity that appealed to me in the first place. Its not a slight on any hobbyists, the majority of whom i fully believe are much more capable of figuring stuff out than corporate marketing strategists would believe.

 

My slight was against corporate opinions of customer intelligence and capability, not against the actual intelligence and capabilities of my fellow hobbyists. I can see how that distinction didn't seem clear enough though. 

[HeadlessCross]

21 hours ago, ThaneOfTas said:

My point was actually more that GW wants as few barriers to entry for the hobby, even at what i view as at the expense of the sort of creativity that appealed to me in the first place. Its not a slight on any hobbyists, the majority of whom i fully believe are much more capable of figuring stuff out than corporate marketing strategists would believe.

 

My slight was against corporate opinions of customer intelligence and capability, not against the actual intelligence and capabilities of my fellow hobbyists. I can see how that distinction didn't seem clear enough though. 

If they were truly concerned about barriers into the hobby they wouldn't overprice things like dice or modeling supplies. 

 

It's strictly about taking away business from Bitz sellers or makers. Nothing more, nothing less. 

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

If they were truly concerned about barriers into the hobby they wouldn't overprice things like dice or modeling supplies. 

 

It's strictly about taking away business from Bitz sellers or makers. Nothing more, nothing less.

Eh, I think its more of a 2-Kroot 1-Rok situation. 

 

They seem to be trying to mimic an Apple style relationship with the customers, with a growing focus on nearly plug and play products with a focus on simplicity and ease of use and getting started at the expense of customer choice or customisation beyond colour, while still being "luxury" to justify the price tag. They arent quite as bad as Apple yet obviously, but it feels like the direction that they are trying to go, at least for the people at the wide end of the Hobby Trumpet.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Just skimmed through some of the thread, I do have an opinion on Devastators. They've recreated all of the classic marine squads pretty faithfully at this point, besides the tactical squad and devastators. I personally think we'll just see a devastator squad at some point, probably in the 11E started with redone intercessors to cover the remaining bits of what is missing from the tactical squad.

 

As for the kits matching the loadouts, I think GW wants to avoid a few things, while perhaps taking it to an extreme at times. They want to avoid situations like buying four Havoc squads to get all reaper chaincannons, so there's that aspect to it. On the other hand, they also want to be the comprehensive seller for their line, they don't want people to have to leave them for getting the items they need. So in the end there are multiple motivations of theirs, and some combo of them weighted in various ways adds up to the policy.

[Orange Knight]

I just think it would be really silly to have a Devastator Squad, and next to it a Desolator Squad.

 

Ultimately, the Grav Cannon is a recent addition to the Devastator Options, in my opinion it would be better suited to another unit. The only classic weapon missing is the Las Cannon.

Does another infantry unit in Tacticus armour with a Las Cannon really offer something the Desolators with super crack don't? Their role, range, behavious on the tabletop - all the same. I agree that the Las Cannon would be a better looking weapon on the model, but I also think that avoiding bloat and redundancy superceedes that in this particular case.

 

And on the topic of Desolators, GW really need to re-introduce wargear costs once again. The unit has been nerfed because of indirect fire abuse with the Vengor and Castellan launchers. A squad of 5 Marines with Supercrack missiles is not worth 200 points when I can field a Ballistus Dreadnough for 130.

 

 

[WrathOfTheLion]

I definitely agree it would make the range seem a bit redundant, but that hasn't stopped them yet. I just think they'll end up doing it that way. If they end up giving Outriders special weapons, then we've basically come full circle there too, so I just don't see them doing that with every classic unit but devastators.

[Tacitus]

4 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

I just think it would be really silly to have a Devastator Squad, and next to it a Desolator Squad.

 

Ultimately, the Grav Cannon is a recent addition to the Devastator Options, in my opinion it would be better suited to another unit. The only classic weapon missing is the Las Cannon.

Does another infantry unit in Tacticus armour with a Las Cannon really offer something the Desolators with super crack don't? Their role, range, behavious on the tabletop - all the same. I agree that the Las Cannon would be a better looking weapon on the model, but I also think that avoiding bloat and redundancy superceedes that in this particular case.

 

And on the topic of Desolators, GW really need to re-introduce wargear costs once again. The unit has been nerfed because of indirect fire abuse with the Vengor and Castellan launchers. A squad of 5 Marines with Supercrack missiles is not worth 200 points when I can field a Ballistus Dreadnough for 130.

 

 

Yes - S12, -3AP vs S10 -2.  It doesn't make more or less sense to have Desolators next to Devastators.  But it shouldn't be a thing to take 3 Hellblasters, 3 Devastators, 3 Desolators, 3 Meltablasters, etc.  Give them all the DEVASTATOR keyword and you're capped at rule of three for that keyword.  If this were the beginning of Primaris, I'd say just create a new Devastator Kit like they did with Sternguard.  But that ship has sailed.  So make your Each Weapon 10 man kit, and use the keyword and rules to limit people to 3.

[Karhedron]

5 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

Does another infantry unit in Tacticus armour with a Las Cannon really offer something the Desolators with super crack don't? Their role, range, behaviours on the tabletop - all the same. I agree that the Las Cannon would be a better looking weapon on the model, but I also think that avoiding bloat and redundancy supersedes that in this particular case.

 

I disgaree. Having run both, the difference between S10 AP-2 and S12 AP-3 is significant. There are a lot of tanks and monsters at T11/12 with 3+ or even 2+ saves. The improved profile of the Lascannon is very relevant against its preffered targets. I would much rather run a Dev Squad with Lascannons than a Desolator squad.

 

I would not mind so much if Desolators could choose between superfrag and superkrak each turn like old missile launchers, then there would be a decent trade-off between flexibility and killing power. As it is, they just do not cut the mustard, especially after multiple price hikes and nerfs to indirect fire.

[DemonGSides]

51 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Yes - S12, -3AP vs S10 -2.  It doesn't make more or less sense to have Desolators next to Devastators.  But it shouldn't be a thing to take 3 Hellblasters, 3 Devastators, 3 Desolators, 3 Meltablasters, etc.  Give them all the DEVASTATOR keyword and you're capped at rule of three for that keyword.  If this were the beginning of Primaris, I'd say just create a new Devastator Kit like they did with Sternguard.  But that ship has sailed.  So make your Each Weapon 10 man kit, and use the keyword and rules to limit people to 3.

 

I don't think anyone but you wants this weird "Devastator" keyword restriction.  Unnecessarily burdensome.

[Karhedron]

10 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I don't think anyone but you wants this weird "Devastator" keyword restriction.  Unnecessarily burdensome.

 

I agree, I don't think that there is an issue with anyone spamming lots of Astartes heavy weapon squads. In early 10th edition when Desolators were dirt cheap, they did get abused but after a massive price hike they have disappeared from the competitive meta and are hardly seen even casually. Making Desolators, Hellblasters and Eradicators all into DEVASTATORS is trying to solve a problem that does not exist.

[TheArtilleryman]

8 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think anyone but you wants this weird "Devastator" keyword restriction.  Unnecessarily burdensome.

I’m not sure about the keyword per se, but I think there’s an argument for rolling them into the same unit but with different points depending on the loadout e.g. 

 

Primaris Devastator squad, 5-10 models - 

- with zappinator lascannons x points

- with desolator missile launchers x points

- with hellblaster plasma rifles x points

- with eradicator melta rifles x points

 

That would remove the issue of balancing different weapon combinations as you just take a whole unit of one weapon a la Horus heresy. But it would reduce the datasheet bloat, give us all the options, invalidate no primaris models and provide a reasonable devastator squad update. Just do a shiny new devastator squad box with all the options, gradually retire the other boxes and put out a note saying your existing hellblasters/desolators or whatever are still valid and can be used as this.

 

Might not even need to be different points as all those weapons are pretty effective in their own right.

If eradicators are in gravis (can’t remember) then maybe you could leave them separate but the other options would work.

 

Another option would be to release both a new “tactical intercessor” box and a separate box containing sprues for the desolator rocket launchers, new lascannons and hellblaster plasma rifles that work with the intercessors kit.

 

People fairly universally seem to dislike the desolators anyway so it would be a good opportunity to remodel them.

Edited January 25 by TheArtilleryman

[TheNicronomicon]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

I disgaree. Having run both, the difference between S10 AP-2 and S12 AP-3 is significant. There are a lot of tanks and monsters at T11/12 with 3+ or even 2+ saves. The improved profile of the Lascannon is very relevant against its preffered targets. I would much rather run a Dev Squad with Lascannons than a Desolator squad.

 

I would not mind so much if Desolators could choose between superfrag and superkrak each turn like old missile launchers, then there would be a decent trade-off between flexibility and killing power. As it is, they just do not cut the mustard, especially after multiple price hikes and nerfs to indirect fire.

The nerfs & price hikes were necessary, but I agree that the fixed-profile weapon options are what kills these guys. I'd love to stick a squad in an Impulsor but ye gods, the price is simply not worth it, and in the end they're a unit that is either good at their one, limited job or completely useless in any given matchup. If they could rework the weapon profile they might be useful again. Maybe one build option is a split profile without indirect at all, and the other weapon has indirect but is more limited in its applications.

 

Or they lock them in a Space Hulk with the Suppressors and fling them into a sun.

[ThaneOfTas]

3 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

Another option would be to release both a new “tactical intercessor” box and a separate box containing sprues for the desolator rocket launchers, new lascannons and hellblaster plasma rifles that work with the intercessors kit.

I'd love that, regrettably not likely to happen but it would be great.

[Orange Knight]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I disgaree. Having run both, the difference between S10 AP-2 and S12 AP-3 is significant. There are a lot of tanks and monsters at T11/12 with 3+ or even 2+ saves. The improved profile of the Lascannon is very relevant against its preffered targets. I would much rather run a Dev Squad with Lascannons than a Desolator squad.

 

But Marines have plenty of other options that are great and offer ap-3.

 

That's the point I'm making.

 

We don't need 20 gravis troop variants, 20 tacticus troop variants, 20 phobos troop variants that repeat function and wargear.

Would it be cool to have them? Sure. But it's terrible for the game and not fair when looking at other ranges that only have 5 or 6 kits. 

Edited January 24 by Orange Knight

[DemonGSides]

1 hour ago, Orange Knight said:

 

But Marines have plenty of other options that are great and offer ap-3.

 

That's the point I'm making.

 

We don't need 20 gravis troop variants, 20 tacticus troop variants, 20 phobos troop variants that repeat function and wargear.

Would it be cool to have them? Sure. But it's terrible for the game and not fair when looking at other ranges that only have 5 or 6 kits. 

 

They don't have infantry that do the thing.

 

And yeah, I want cool toys?  That's the point. I'm not super interested in a super competitive esports game; that's just chess with extra steps.

[Orange Knight]

16 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

They don't have infantry that do the thing.

 

And yeah, I want cool toys?  That's the point. I'm not super interested in a super competitive esports game; that's just chess with extra steps.

 

So why don't you convert some existing Devs into Primaris, or model the Desolators with Las Cannons?

 

If you have no interest in the competitive side, just hobby the models together. Make homebrew rules.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think anyone but you wants this weird "Devastator" keyword restriction.  Unnecessarily burdensome.

I suspect they would after the run into a list of 30 Hellbalsters, 30 Melta Blasters, 30 Las Blasters, etc.   The problem with splitting the Devastator unit out to a Datasheet for each element is it nullifies the rule of three.  You have to stitch it back in afterwards.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

I agree, I don't think that there is an issue with anyone spamming lots of Astartes heavy weapon squads. In early 10th edition when Desolators were dirt cheap, they did get abused but after a massive price hike they have disappeared from the competitive meta and are hardly seen even casually. Making Desolators, Hellblasters and Eradicators all into DEVASTATORS is trying to solve a problem that does not exist.

I'm not talking about Desolators, Hellblasters, and Eradicators.  Sure the Hellblasters and Desolators would probably get tagged - I'm talking about the Tacticus Melta guys, and the Tacticus Grav guns, and the Tacticus Las guys and on and on.  The hypothetical split-outs turning the traditional Dev Squad into something like 7 datasheets that are all basically the same thing, without the rule of three in the other rule of three. (3 max Datasheet with 3 slots to use)

[TheArtilleryman]

4 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

I suspect they would after the run into a list of 30 Hellbalsters, 30 Melta Blasters, 30 Las Blasters, etc.   The problem with splitting the Devastator unit out to a Datasheet for each element is it nullifies the rule of three.  You have to stitch it back in afterwards.

Hence my suggestion of folding them into one datasheet. Looks like eradicators are gravies so they wouldn’t work, but if you had one datasheet with Lascannon, desolator and hellblaster options you could still have one of each squad