Does the biologis need a rework?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

As it stands it seems the biologis benefits aggressors more than any other unit it can join.

 

OC boost after destroying a unit in melee? Best for aggressors.

lethal hits? Great for mass low S shots.

 

i posted this in another thread and didn’t want to derail it, but biologis healing 1W per turn and providing a 5+++ would be perfect, and equally benefits all gravis units.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[HeadlessCross]

There's generally problems with Apothecaries in 10th once they started making characters go into squads again. I think a 6+++ and reviving a dude is enough for both variants. Not sure why they even need different rules. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

13 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

There's generally problems with Apothecaries in 10th once they started making characters go into squads again. I think a 6+++ and reviving a dude is enough for both variants. Not sure why they even need different rules. 

Different themes.

an FNP makes more sense with the bulk of gravis, while reviving downed marines is more likely to be used on tacticus marines 

[Karhedron]

I think they didn't want to give the Biologis the revival rule as it is a lot more valuable on an Aggressor or Eradicator than on a Hellblaster.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, Karhedron said:

I think they didn't want to give the Biologis the revival rule as it is a lot more valuable on an Aggressor or Eradicator than on a Hellblaster.

Idk about more valuable, but with T4 2W  models it’s more likely to get used, so while it might be more valuable per revive there’s also a lot lower chance of the biologis using it.

[Indy Techwisp]

I feel what happened here was they put too much focus on matching the Lore to the Mechanics and it's caused issues.

 

Simply Put:

The Apothecary Biologis isn't a Medic.

They're a Biologist.

But they decided that they should still be called an Apothecary in-universe and so now we have a character who was never intended as a Medic being looked at through the lens of "Why doesn't my Gravis Medic do Medic stuff?"

 

Another example from the same box is the Phobos LT with Combi-weapon.

Why does he need his own datasheet?

Why can't he just work like the other Primaris LTs and just be "the model for that loadout" like the LT with Power Sword used to be or the LT with the Bladeguard loadout who still is.

 

If the Apothecary Biologis had been given a new designation (honestly Biologis itself works as one) rather than being tied to the existing expectations of what a Space Marine Apothecary is, I feel there wouldn't be this constant need to try and "fix" the character by making it something that it isn't supposed to be.

 

 

On a different note, an actual Gravis Apothecary would be kinda busted unless they only healed and couldn't revive people. Helblasters shooting on death is annoying, but Helblasters shooting on death, getting revived, blowing themselves up by shooting on overcharge and then shooting on death again would be just awful.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I feel what happened here was they put too much focus on matching the Lore to the Mechanics and it's caused issues.

 

Simply Put:

The Apothecary Biologis isn't a Medic.

They're a Biologist.

But they decided that they should still be called an Apothecary in-universe and so now we have a character who was never intended as a Medic being looked at through the lens of "Why doesn't my Gravis Medic do Medic stuff?"

 

Another example from the same box is the Phobos LT with Combi-weapon.

Why does he need his own datasheet?

Why can't he just work like the other Primaris LTs and just be "the model for that loadout" like the LT with Power Sword used to be or the LT with the Bladeguard loadout who still is.

 

If the Apothecary Biologis had been given a new designation (honestly Biologis itself works as one) rather than being tied to the existing expectations of what a Space Marine Apothecary is, I feel there wouldn't be this constant need to try and "fix" the character by making it something that it isn't supposed to be.

 

 

On a different note, an actual Gravis Apothecary would be kinda busted unless they only healed and couldn't revive people. Helblasters shooting on death is annoying, but Helblasters shooting on death, getting revived, blowing themselves up by shooting on overcharge and then shooting on death again would be just awful.

He also doesn’t do any biologist things either.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

46 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I feel what happened here was they put too much focus on matching the Lore to the Mechanics and it's caused issues.

 

Simply Put:

The Apothecary Biologis isn't a Medic.

They're a Biologist.

But they decided that they should still be called an Apothecary in-universe and so now we have a character who was never intended as a Medic being looked at through the lens of "Why doesn't my Gravis Medic do Medic stuff?"

 

Another example from the same box is the Phobos LT with Combi-weapon.

Why does he need his own datasheet?

Why can't he just work like the other Primaris LTs and just be "the model for that loadout" like the LT with Power Sword used to be or the LT with the Bladeguard loadout who still is.

 

If the Apothecary Biologis had been given a new designation (honestly Biologis itself works as one) rather than being tied to the existing expectations of what a Space Marine Apothecary is, I feel there wouldn't be this constant need to try and "fix" the character by making it something that it isn't supposed to be.

 

 

On a different note, an actual Gravis Apothecary would be kinda busted unless they only healed and couldn't revive people. Helblasters shooting on death is annoying, but Helblasters shooting on death, getting revived, blowing themselves up by shooting on overcharge and then shooting on death again would be just awful.

He also doesn’t do any biologist things either.

[HeadlessCross]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I feel what happened here was they put too much focus on matching the Lore to the Mechanics and it's caused issues.

 

Simply Put:

The Apothecary Biologis isn't a Medic.

They're a Biologist.

But they decided that they should still be called an Apothecary in-universe and so now we have a character who was never intended as a Medic being looked at through the lens of "Why doesn't my Gravis Medic do Medic stuff?"

 

Another example from the same box is the Phobos LT with Combi-weapon.

Why does he need his own datasheet?

Why can't he just work like the other Primaris LTs and just be "the model for that loadout" like the LT with Power Sword used to be or the LT with the Bladeguard loadout who still is.

 

If the Apothecary Biologis had been given a new designation (honestly Biologis itself works as one) rather than being tied to the existing expectations of what a Space Marine Apothecary is, I feel there wouldn't be this constant need to try and "fix" the character by making it something that it isn't supposed to be.

 

 

On a different note, an actual Gravis Apothecary would be kinda busted unless they only healed and couldn't revive people. Helblasters shooting on death is annoying, but Helblasters shooting on death, getting revived, blowing themselves up by shooting on overcharge and then shooting on death again would be just awful.

I agree 100% that the Phobos Lt. W/ Combi-Weapon needs a different name. Its role and theme heavily suggest a saboteur type of role, though there really isn't a place for that in terms of organization. 

 

Also Hellblasters don't gain anything from the Gravis Apothecary anyway. 

[ZeroWolf]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Biologis job (aside from driving me up the wall in painting the armour) is working out better way to kill things (notably Tyranids given what box it's from) hence why it gives lethal hits.

[Indy Techwisp]

10 minutes ago, ZeroWolf said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Biologis job (aside from driving me up the wall in painting the armour) is working out better way to kill things (notably Tyranids given what box it's from) hence why it gives lethal hits.

Yeah, he gives you Lethal Hits because he's a Xenobiologist and he's telling his bodyguards how best to kill the thing.

 

Also, I think the idea behind the Vivispectrum ability is that once he takes a sample from the enemy (kill it in melee) he needs to hold position so it can be analysed (+9 OC to hold position better).

 

It's really more of a Storytelling piece than a proper gamepiece imo, like the Phobos LT with Combi-Weapon.

I think they could've done something more with the unit to make it clearer that they're not a medic, but at the end of the day they've still made a unit that's flavour over function.

[DemonGSides]

Until they release a Lt in Gravis, I like him just fine as is.

 

I disagree with the notion that he's bad with certain units. I think a melta likes a lethal hits as much as anything else.  Aggressors certainly get more chances at the lethal but a lethal coming through at AP-4 is tasty.

 

Cool model too. 

[Indy Techwisp]

1 hour ago, HeadlessCross said:

Also Hellblasters don't gain anything from the Gravis Apothecary anyway. 

 

I'll be honest, I cannot make the fact that Helblasters are a Tacticus unit stay in my brain, no matter what I do.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, ZeroWolf said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Biologis job (aside from driving me up the wall in painting the armour) is working out better way to kill things (notably Tyranids given what box it's from) hence why it gives lethal hits.

So why do LTs do the same?

don’t marines know how to kill most things like humans and other astartes well enough to justify lethals?

 

it’s just silly to say that’s him doing ‘biology’

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Until they release a Lt in Gravis, I like him just fine as is.

 

I disagree with the notion that he's bad with certain units. I think a melta likes a lethal hits as much as anything else.  Aggressors certainly get more chances at the lethal but a lethal coming through at AP-4 is tasty.

 

Cool model too. 

The real point of lethals is to help give low S weapons a better chance at actually doing wounds.

 

sure 3 melta shots benefit from lethals, but 9+ S4 shots benefit more.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So why do LTs do the same?

don’t marines know how to kill most things like humans and other astartes well enough to justify lethals?

 

it’s just silly to say that’s him doing ‘biology’

 

Because people try to perform better when their supervisor is looking over their shoulder.  Same effect, different cause.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

37 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

 

Because people try to perform better when their supervisor is looking over their shoulder.  Same effect, different cause.

So marines don’t know how to shoot a human in the head with a biologist or middle management present? Why don’t captains give lethals then?

 

trying to explain poorly thought out rules with lore is a fool’s errand

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

I agree 100% that the Phobos Lt. W/ Combi-Weapon needs a different name. Its role and theme heavily suggest a saboteur type of role, though there really isn't a place for that in terms of organization. 

 

Also Hellblasters don't gain anything from the Gravis Apothecary anyway. 

Gravis - with - Biologis

Hellblasters - with - Apothecary (Not Biologis)

Hypothtical - Biologis and Apothecary (Not Biologis) have the same rule(s) especially healing/resurrection.

 

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

I feel what happened here was they put too much focus on matching the Lore to the Mechanics and it's caused issues.

 

Simply Put:

The Apothecary Biologis isn't a Medic.

They're a Biologist.

But they decided that they should still be called an Apothecary in-universe and so now we have a character who was never intended as a Medic being looked at through the lens of "Why doesn't my Gravis Medic do Medic stuff?"

 

Or, if the biologis isn't a medic who does medic stuff, why doesnt my gravis squad have a gravis medic who does medic stuff?  Why do Medics forget their medic stuff when they're wearing Gravis? 

[DemonGSides]

11 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The real point of lethals is to help give low S weapons a better chance at actually doing wounds.

 

sure 3 melta shots benefit from lethals, but 9+ S4 shots benefit more.

 

The point of lethals is to skip a rolling step, specifically the wound roll.

 

It benefits them both for different reasons. Whether one or the other is better is determined by the objective. There's a reason why you see the Biologis with Eradicators at the top tables and not with aggressors.

 

But you always seem to have made up your mind before coming into these discussions so I don't really see the point. 

[HeadlessCross]

11 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Or, if the biologis isn't a medic who does medic stuff, why doesnt my gravis squad have a gravis medic who does medic stuff?  Why do Medics forget their medic stuff when they're wearing Gravis? 

Because everything needs different bespoke rules, apparently. 

12 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

The real point of lethals is to help give low S weapons a better chance at actually doing wounds.

 

sure 3 melta shots benefit from lethals, but 9+ S4 shots benefit more.

They activate the Lethal Hits more, but that doesn't mean they enjoy it more. 

 

Even if Eradicators get a reroll to wound, it skips a whole step of their weapon wounding just over half the time into a bigger target. 

[jaxom]

On 12/29/2024 at 6:25 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

He also doesn’t do any biologist things either.

On 12/29/2024 at 9:07 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So why do LTs do the same?

don’t marines know how to kill most things like humans and other astartes well enough to justify lethals?

 

it’s just silly to say that’s him doing ‘biology’

On 12/29/2024 at 11:30 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

So marines don’t know how to shoot a human in the head with a biologist or middle management present? Why don’t captains give lethals then?

 

trying to explain poorly thought out rules with lore is a fool’s errand

 

"Yet here, a change in spirit. Form fury to serenity. I cannot say. I cannot yet see."

 

It's very tropey that the study of anatomy has a beneficial effect for doing bodily harm. The Apothecarion is the catch-all office for biological studies. Not all of that is medical. Most biologists are not qualified to perform medical actions. Headshots are expected of Space Marines, but where do they aim when a creature has no head or other discernable, human-analogue anatomy? And yes, I realize that it's a somewhat silly question when Xenos miniatures have human-analogue anatomy, for the most part, but that's the power fantasy the Designers seem to be emphasizing in the larger realm of 40k where truly alien creatures exist. Apothecaries-Biologis are the subject matter experts. It's Picard pointing at what seems like a Random Spot on a borg cube (a ship with no external visual system identifiers) to hit with torpedoes and it blows up the whole thing.

 

Just of the top of my head, from the name of the ability, Tactical Precision, a Lt grants Lethal Hits because he helps direct overlapping fields of fire, focused fire, and timed salvos. It's Worf ordering a specific torpedo firing pattern to spread the enemy's shields and then puncture with a concentrated barrage.

 

The two abilities are mechanically no different because its decent ability to show increase effectiveness without dipping into re-rolls. I'm not getting into 10th ed system design, so I'll leave it at that. I humbly request that no else drag the conversation in that direction; it's been hashed to death and tends to lead to pages of wish-listing.

 

Devil's Advocate on Captains: they don't deal with Tactical Precision or Target Priority because they're focusing an the specific tactics of the mission; i.e. Rites of Battle lets them use Detachments Strats as if they were a free unit ability. Outside of that, I think @HeadlessCross nailed: units need to be different; plus I think the Designers like the idea of a Captain accompanied by his Lieutenant. No need to have the same abilities in such cases.

 

On 12/30/2024 at 12:13 AM, Tacitus said:

Or, if the biologis isn't a medic who does medic stuff, why doesnt my gravis squad have a gravis medic who does medic stuff?  Why do Medics forget their medic stuff when they're wearing Gravis? 

 

I think in a perfect world, or at least in the fluff, every position in a Chapter could be fielded in any armour. Apothecaries-Biologis in Phobos, Apothecaries in Gravis, Chaplains in Gravis, Chaplains in Phobos, etc, etc. But at the end of the day, it's a game dictated by the models that survived the design process from concept-to-fabrication to make it into the rules.

 

On 12/29/2024 at 3:21 PM, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

As it stands it seems the biologis benefits aggressors more than any other unit it can join.

 

What's the current Gold Standard for targets in Math-hammer? Is it still Guardsmen, Intercessors, Terminators, Leman Russes, and medium-chassis Knights?

 

 

 

[Indy Techwisp]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

What's the current Gold Standard for targets in Math-hammer? Is it still Guardsmen, Intercessors, Terminators, Leman Russes, and medium-chassis Knights?

 

I see Teq, Meq, Geq and Ceq thrown around occasionally.

Teq, Meq, and Geq being Terminator, Marine and Guardsmen of course, but with Ceq added for "Cultist" i.e. stuff that's even less survivable than Guard and seemingly only used for the mathing out of "What is the absolute maximum number of models I can kill in one Shooting attack?"

Or very rarely when you're specifically labbing out a matchup against CSM's Chaos Cult Detachment or a TSons list that's gone all in on Tzaangors.

[AutumnEffect]

9 hours ago, jaxom said:

What's the current Gold Standard for targets in Math-hammer? Is it still Guardsmen, Intercessors, Terminators, Leman Russes, and medium-chassis Knights?

 

That tends to be what I use except for the Knights. I tend to find the difference between Toughness 12 3+/5++ and Toughness 11 2+ to be kinda negligible when comparing weapons I want to take for anti-armor.

 

The Biologis is solid on Eradicators because they get to re-roll everything against their favorite targets (Big Things*) which lets you fish for Lethal Hits. Their Strength 9 weapons are still wounding those targets usually on a 5+ so getting to skip the Roll-to-Wound step is very valuable.

 

Taking a Biologis nets you approximately 17% more wounds on a Leman Russ profile with Eradicators.

A Biologis is 35% the cost of an Eradicator squad (But obviously provides more than just the damage bonus, having his own wounds, OC, etc, though I'm also aware that you aren't buying him for that)
So make of it what you will.

 

Their targets are typically big, expensive, dangerous things so getting an extra 17% damage on your target, in my opinion, isn't nothing. I feel like for me personally it's in the nebulous category of 'Nice to have, easy to cut'. 

 

I don't really like the argument of 'which is a Biologis better on, Aggressors or Eradicators' though because you can take 3 Biologis. While there are some arguments for putting perhaps a Captain in a squad of Aggressors, there's not really a reason to do so with a squad of Eradicators that I know of and you typically will only have 1 unit of Aggressors running around.
Take two Biologis and put them in your Aggressors and Eradicator squads.
We can have our cake and eat it too.

Edited yesterday at 08:16 AM by AutumnEffect

[Karhedron]

1 hour ago, AutumnEffect said:

Taking a Biologis nets you approximately 17% more wounds on a Leman Russ profile on Eradicators.

A Biologis is 35% the cost of an Eradicator squad (But obviously provides more than just the damage bonus, having his own wounds, OC, etc, though I'm also aware that you aren't buying him for that)
So make of it what you will.

 

I agree that a Biologis can do good work with Eradicators. I often run mine as a squad of 6 so I can now fit them and a Biologis in a Repulsor for delivery.

 

The other thing a Biologis is good for carrying Enhancements. I sometimes run a Firestorm detachment and really like Forged in Battle. An automatic 6 to Hit each shooting phase turns a miss into a Lethal Hit. The automatic 6 to save in each opponent's turn let's you bounce even a lascannon hit if you need to.