DWK + Character + Land Raider C

[*42*]

Brothers, I had my 40k heyday during 2nd and 4th ed and dabbled in 30K since then. The new Deathwing Knights brought me back to the current 40k.

 

After browsing through some army lists, I am wondering why I do not see LRC packed with DWK and a character. 600 points in one place just too much, better combos? What am I missing about the current game? 

[Helias_Tancred]

I'm no expert but my first assumption would be the mediocrity of the Land Raider Crusader versus the other two Land Raider patterns? 

 

 

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Helias_Tancred said:

I'm no expert but my first assumption would be the mediocrity of the Land Raider Crusader versus the other two Land Raider patterns? 

 

 

Actually that would be one of the few places the LRC is arguably "better" than the other versions.  The Crusader picks up the "slack" DWK miss out on by giving up their Storm Bolters.  

 

As to the OP question: My guess is that makes the LRC too obviously the alpha strike target and the benefit is of dubious value.  Boards are "slightly" smaller (measuring edge to edge, its more than "slightly" when looking at area) and the obvious DWK play is to run them into the center and play King Of The Mountain.  Watching someone put some infiltrators in the center should make your eyes light up - play the new Lion's Blade Det.  Ravenwing Unit (probably with Sammael- Move, Advance, Shoot, Charge, allowing your DWK to Move, Advance, Charge +2 Rerollable then turn on the blender. 

 

That's not to say the Land Raider thing is bad, just that its not always the best choice.  I should also point out it doesn't have to be a Crusader (though with the Crusader being cheaper and more dovetailed into the DWK its a little synergy of it's own, plus allowing for two characters attached - though the only real option for that is the Ancient and its hard to argue he's worth the points it costs to include him - even if his whole thing is giving +1OC to Terminators.  In the Center.  Contesting Midfield.  

 

If you want to sink a whole bunch of points into a Land Raider + Unit combo you may want to look into the Centurions.  Downside you can only afford 5 Cents inside the Crusader but have to pay for 6.  Its a nasty nasty firebase (anti "horde" firepower from the Crusader, 5 TL Lascannon + Missiles most likely from the Cent Devs)  Using Assault Devs are kinda meh.  They don't have enough A per point per base to really light up much.  IF you can hit Decimator Protocols, AND IF you have all 5 that's 15 attacks, 2.5 Decimator triggers is another 5 hits (unless you're OOM'ing and fishing for Sustaineds, but at that point you're investing too much on "Not good, not bad, but meh" units from your own army - plus the Crusader isn't going to do much against (most) Monsters Vehicles or Fortifications.  There's a niche here but a lot of it depends on your opponent/meta. 

 

The TL;DR answer to your question is that GW made vehicles suck for a long time, and still haven't equalized boosting foot slogging up the board with riding in vehicles that now don't QUITE suck. 

[*42*]

Thank you for the detailed answer!

[HeadlessCross]

12 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Actually that would be one of the few places the LRC is arguably "better" than the other versions.  The Crusader picks up the "slack" DWK miss out on by giving up their Storm Bolters.  

There's no slack for giving up Storm Bolters because Storm Bolters on a Terminator body have always been inefficient. 

 

Crusaders don't have as good anti-infantry as the Redeemer and the Godhammer is specced to kill vehicles mostly, and frankly Land Raider vairants just aren't having a good time right now due to inability to traverse terrain easily on top of the overall lower firepower. It's also just not terribly difficult to get Deathwing Knights where you need to go via Deep Strike shenanigans. THEN you'll find they're pretty character-independent outside the Power Weapon variant, which likes having the Chaplain to outperform basically anything, which equates to saving points elsewhere. 

[Tacitus]

On 12/30/2024 at 10:41 AM, HeadlessCross said:

There's no slack for giving up Storm Bolters because Storm Bolters on a Terminator body have always been inefficient. 

 

Crusaders don't have as good anti-infantry as the Redeemer and the Godhammer is specced to kill vehicles mostly, and frankly Land Raider vairants just aren't having a good time right now due to inability to traverse terrain easily on top of the overall lower firepower. It's also just not terribly difficult to get Deathwing Knights where you need to go via Deep Strike shenanigans. THEN you'll find they're pretty character-independent outside the Power Weapon variant, which likes having the Chaplain to outperform basically anything, which equates to saving points elsewhere. 

The stormbolters aren't inefficient really.  They're not super but 4 shots per isn't bad.  They would have been an Aggressor Bomb if you could get a "Lieutenant" (for Sustained, Lethal 5+ Crits) in the mix.

 

Crusaders have better anti-"chaff" infantry than Redeemers, while Redeemers have better Anti-"MEQ" Infantry.  And yes, I did forget to point out Vehicles - especially the large ones - have a devil of a time moving on heavy Terrain boards.  

 

I disagree on DWK not being character driven.  The Libby is good for the Mace of Absolution's and somewhat less so for the Power Weapons.  The Chaplain with a 4+++ vs Mortal is good for their centerfield tarpit role, and the Captain for Reroll Charges is also a strong contender, especially if you can get Advance and Charge.  I'm not GENERALLY impressed with the Deep Strike DWK idea.  I mean there are weird terrain and objective scenarios I can see it, but they'd be the exception proving the rule.  I'd much rather run them up instead of missing turns waiting for Deep Strike.

[Karhedron]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

The stormbolters aren't inefficient really.  They're not super but 4 shots per isn't bad.  They would have been an Aggressor Bomb if you could get a "Lieutenant" (for Sustained, Lethal 5+ Crits) in the mix.

 

I saw a player try this with Wolf Guard Terminators since Space Wolves do get a Terminator Lt. However it wasn't as effective as Aggressors as there was no built-in way to boost the AP. The extra -1 AP that Aggressors get for shooting at the nearest target is a big part of their effectiveness. 

 

Quote

Crusaders have better anti-"chaff" infantry than Redeemers, while Redeemers have better Anti-"MEQ" Infantry.  And yes, I did forget to point out Vehicles - especially the large ones - have a devil of a time moving on heavy Terrain boards.  

 

The Redeemer also has a big advantage in that it is a perfect target for the Overwatch stratagem. It can create a 12" bubble where your opponent will really fear to tread. Avoiding this can cause your opponent to make errors or risk walking into the fire.

[HeadlessCross]

Not to mention Aggressors just have more shots naturally. They're 4-9 shots each, which is going to work out better than the lonely Heavy Weapon you're taking in the Terminators. It's why the Deathwatch variant does work for shooting but others don't. 

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Crusaders have better anti-"chaff" infantry than Redeemers, while Redeemers have better Anti-"MEQ" Infantry.  And yes, I did forget to point out Vehicles - especially the large ones - have a devil of a time moving on heavy Terrain boards.  

 

I disagree on DWK not being character driven.  The Libby is good for the Mace of Absolution's and somewhat less so for the Power Weapons.  The Chaplain with a 4+++ vs Mortal is good for their centerfield tarpit role, and the Captain for Reroll Charges is also a strong contender, especially if you can get Advance and Charge.  I'm not GENERALLY impressed with the Deep Strike DWK idea.  I mean there are weird terrain and objective scenarios I can see it, but they'd be the exception proving the rule.  I'd much rather run them up instead of missing turns waiting for Deep Strike.

Redeemers are letting out an average of 13 auto hits that are AP-2 and ignoring cover. 24 TL shots sound cool until you realize the Redeemer is wounding at a higher rate into tons of targets and it has the benefit of just rolling the two dice. No cover, no Stealth, no -1 to hit, no treating BS as one lower than normal. Average hits for the Crusader in rapid fire range is only 16 shots. If I'm gonna be in that range, why not just go the other route instead?

 

The Crusader's main selling point IS the larger amount of room. 

 

Also Deathwing Knights being independent is mostly WHY they're used. Hell, just in May some dude ran a Firestorm Assault Force variant and used two squads with no supporting characters outside arguably Lionel. I've only done the one squad with Power Weapons + Chaplain because that's actually insane. 

[Karhedron]

9 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

The Crusader's main selling point IS the larger amount of room. 

 

Even that is less important than it used to be as most squads as fixed size now. Only Black Templars and Space Wolves can really make use of the Crusader's extra capacity.

[HeadlessCross]

14 hours ago, Karhedron said:

 

Even that is less important than it used to be as most squads as fixed size now. Only Black Templars and Space Wolves can really make use of the Crusader's extra capacity.

I'd forgive GW twice for zero wargear costs if they'd at least do points per individual model again. 

[Tacitus]

On 1/2/2025 at 1:11 AM, Karhedron said:

 

Even that is less important than it used to be as most squads as fixed size now. Only Black Templars and Space Wolves can really make use of the Crusader's extra capacity.

As far as anyone can take advantage of a transport.  Its still a horrendously expensive opportunity cost.

[Karhedron]

12 hours ago, Tacitus said:

As far as anyone can take advantage of a transport.  Its still a horrendously expensive opportunity cost.

 

I agree. The regular and Redeemer pattern LRs both bring some respectable firepower. I often use the LR as anti-tank while the Redeemer is rightly feared for creating a bubble of NOPE with the Flamestorm cannons and Overwatch. But the Crusader doesn't bring enough decent firepower to the party to be worth the effort. I have a Crusader each for my Wolves and Blood Angels and I would love to switch them to Redeemers.