Valrak Total War: Warhammer 40,000

[Scribe]

2 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

It would either be a game that moves entirely away from the core aspects of the battle gameplay of the series and therefore not to a Total War game except in name, or it would have to depict 40k combat in a style that is not appropriate for 40k by making it fit the gameplay of the series.

 

Considering they took Apocalypse, very much not a 'squad' based game mode, and shifted 40K in that direction, I see no reason to dismiss a Total War that is '40K' in the same way novels are 40K, or Apoc was 40K, or Kill Team is 40K..

 

I dont think (and certainly would hope!) that they dont try and implement 10th (11th?) edition, but utilize the rich setting of 40K to make a game for us to move around units (squads) and see things get blown up.

[Wormwoods]

Yeah, I can't imagine it'll be a close match to the tabletop. Given how their Warhammer Fantasy game doesn't care about regiment depth, doesn't have a magic phase entirely based around dispelling, and - big one here - it's turn based, I think it's safe to assume anything 40K Total War would be more Total War than 40K, and that's OK! 

[Emperor Ming]

5 hours ago, Scribe said:

If it actually goes all combined arms and covers every unit type?

 

I weep for the rest of my spare time, because I know what I'll be doing in 2026.

Lower expectations

 

Warhammer 1 lanched with a small map and like 4 starting factions. I cant see it happening tbh. or itl be such small scale that everything will be dlc

[Scribe]

16 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Lower expectations

 

Warhammer 1 lanched with a small map and like 4 starting factions. I cant see it happening tbh. or itl be such small scale that everything will be dlc

 

Sure but that was how long ago? GW and CA know what they have on their hands now.

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

 

41 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Lower expectations

 

Warhammer 1 lanched with a small map and like 4 starting factions. I cant see it happening tbh. or itl be such small scale that everything will be dlc

 

To be fair that was back when noone was sure if it would be a hit or not, as soon as it was shown to be a success CA poured resources into it, Warhammer 2 launch was bigger than 1 and 3 was bigger than 2.

I'm not expecting anything on the level of WH3 but I for sure expect more to be offered than WH1 especially considering both those teams weren't touched in restructuring but reinforced

[TheVoidDragon]

58 minutes ago, Scribe said:

 

Considering they took Apocalypse, very much not a 'squad' based game mode, and shifted 40K in that direction, I see no reason to dismiss a Total War that is '40K' in the same way novels are 40K, or Apoc was 40K, or Kill Team is 40K..

 

I dont think (and certainly would hope!) that they dont try and implement 10th (11th?) edition, but utilize the rich setting of 40K to make a game for us to move around units (squads) and see things get blown up.

 

Those aren't comparable situations at all, though. 40k considers of a variety of different scales of battles, this is nothing about the scale of battle - that's the one part the Total War series could depict fine.It's the style of warfare that's the issue, as outside of certain Guard regiments, combat in 40k is not like 18th century Napoleonic Line Infantry, which is what the Total war series does.

 

There's a huge difference between having 40k shown at different battle scales, and having the style of warfare shown be completely wrong to the setting overall.

Edited January 1 by TheVoidDragon

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

I wish we could all play the game or see a trailer before saying stuff like the style of warfare doesnt fit a total war series or they'll have to rework the entire system and make it like game: xyz and therefore not total war etc

This reminds me of mechanicus - "A zero cover system couldnt work with an xcom style game" which was going around when the game was announced, and then it turns out to be one of the best WH40K games that got released in years

 

I'm just interested to see how CA will adapt and implement this and can't wait to give it a try. I've been wanting a 40k grand strategy game that wasn't tile based since freaking soulstorm 

[Joe]

To be fair, the people taking digs at Mechanicus were fairly ill-educated; there were more than a few games in that style in the 90s and 2000s that largely flew under the radar but were incredibly good, such as the original Chaos Gate.

 

In terms of the Total War formula and Warhammer (40,000), the critiques about it being a rough fit aren't unfounded, particularly given the struggles they've had with the engine the last few years. I suspect what we'll see with it (and Star Wars) is a game that utilises the Total War branding but is built in such a dramatically different fashion that it'll be very distinct from the typical TW formula.

[TheVoidDragon]

39 minutes ago, Mechanicus Tech-Support said:

I wish we could all play the game or see a trailer before saying stuff like the style of warfare doesnt fit a total war series or they'll have to rework the entire system and make it like game: xyz and therefore not total war etc

This reminds me of mechanicus - "A zero cover system couldnt work with an xcom style game" which was going around when the game was announced, and then it turns out to be one of the best WH40K games that got released in years

 

I'm just interested to see how CA will adapt and implement this and can't wait to give it a try. I've been wanting a 40k grand strategy game that wasn't tile based since freaking soulstorm 

 

How would that make any difference? We don't need a trailer or gameplay to know that the style of warfare show in 40k just does not fit the Total War series because it's a completely different style of warfare from what the series does, focuses on, and has depicted ever since the start, and the style of warfare of the series does not fit 40k because 40k is not 18th Century Line Infantry combat. Neither of those are claiming that they couldn't make a fun game or whatever, it's just stating how both things are. They would have to drastically change one or the other for it it work.

 

They either have to change the foundation of the series' gameplay in an extremely substantial way, or depict 40k as a style of warfare not representative of 40k to get it to fit within the series.

Edited January 1 by TheVoidDragon

[grailkeeper]

A lot of posters are saying the TW style wont adapt to 40k combat 

 

If its a choice between lore accurate combat or good gameplay, I pick gameplay.

 

[Scribe]

1 hour ago, TheVoidDragon said:

There's a huge difference between having 40k shown at different battle scales, and having the style of warfare shown be completely wrong to the setting overall.

 

I have a hilarious amount of time invested into TW Warhammer, and with the various unit types represented, I have no doubt that 40K in a fashion recognizable as 40K, could be done.

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, Scribe said:

 

Sure but that was how long ago? GW and CA know what they have on their hands now.

One would hope so, just its been a trail of disasters recently

[Dr. Clock]

54 minutes ago, TheVoidDragon said:

40k is not 18th Century Line Infantry combat

I mean... you say that... but it's still essentially a Fantasy not a Science Fiction. Melee is still very much a thing for handwavium reasons and even though all the guns are technically far beyond anything we have today, all the armour is likewise, so you kinda land in approximately the same place as long as you make sure there are tradeoffs for taking vehicles and monsters. Still - doomstacking is part of the fun, so I'm hopeful they can pull of something fun even if it somewhat strains credulity (as all warhammer must).

 

Ideally I'd think the scale could be pretty much bang on 40k's tbh... TW:Warhammer ends up being much bigger than you can realistically achieve in a game of tabletop Warhammer. But like... 10 Marines or 20 Guard has to be the baseline unit so an IG army stack is like ~160 infantry, 6 tanks, 4 other vehicles and 2 characters? I can't imagine they'll explode the lore so much that marine squads are suddenly all 20 bricks... And likewise if it's a combat squad of 5 as baseline you'd cap out at 95 marines + 1 character in a stack which seems low, especially once you bake in about half the slots for vehicles, cannons and, ahem, cavalry. Biggest question mark off the hop would be whether transports are units on their own or bought as 'mounted squads'.

 

Ah - who'm I kidding, I just hope there's no siege gate bug.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[Marshal Rohr]

The thing is, if you want a 40K map game you don’t go to Creative Assembly. Paradox is the premium map game. Total War has great maps, but the whole economy/training/growth/public order model just doesn’t really work. The faction model doesn’t work. Under no circumstances should Guilliman ever declare war on the entire Imperial Guard or Sisters of Battle. That is just insane. Everyone says “the imperium fights itself all the time” but no, it doesn’t, it fights the galactic equivalent of the Waco standoff. There isn’t a current Civil War. It’s just going to be as silly and ridiculous as the Kronos Campaign from Dawn of War. If you’re going to make a game, make a game that respects the setting - not some random mishmash of mechanics with 40K skins. 
 

also, let’s be realistic, CA is hurting financially. This will be monetized to hell which is fine if the things you buy actually work, but that’s not CAs track record. They’re going to put all their energy into multiplayer because they keep chasing the esports white dragon even though most people who play these games auto resolve the battles and never complete a campaign. They can’t land the mid game or end game. They can’t realize all dozen multiplayer players screaming about balance are actually killing their ability to focus on the campaign side, which is what most people will play. 

Edited January 1 by Marshal Rohr

[mecanojavi99]

100s hours player of the TWWH series and usual of the old and new TWWH forum here

 

The consensus among that community goes more towards "in theory it can be done, but leaving behind much of what makes Total War, Total War"

[mecanojavi99]

22 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

The thing is, if you want a 40K map game you don’t go to Creative Assembly. Paradox is the premium map game. Total War has great maps, but the whole economy/training/growth/public order model just doesn’t really work. The faction model doesn’t work. Under no circumstances should Guilliman ever declare war on the entire Imperial Guard or Sisters of Battle. That is just insane. Everyone says “the imperium fights itself all the time” but no, it doesn’t, it fights the galactic equivalent of the Waco standoff. There isn’t a current Civil War. It’s just going to be as silly and ridiculous as the Kronos Campaign from Dawn of War. If you’re going to make a game, make a game that respects the setting - not some random mishmash of mechanics with 40K skins. 

I'm personally on the camp of 40K doesn't suit the Total War formula, but "the Imperium factions fighting each other doesn't make sense" argument is one of the silliest.

 

In Total War Warhammer that kind of thing happens in every single campaign, you can go to war with Tyrion as Teclis, you can take over the Empire and kill Karl Franz as Gelt, you can conquer the other Lizardmen cities and kill characters like Mazdamundi and Krok Gar as Tiq'Taq'To, Morgiana can be killed by Louen...

 

Heck, if we followed canon like that in the Warhammer series, you would always lose the campaign after Chaos blows up the world...

[Wispy]

So, uh, in 2018 right before my time with Relic ended, I heard that Creative Assembly was planning on doing this and it was on their roadmap.

 

(Creative Assembly being the one who pushed Sega to acquire Relic in bankruptcy proceedings in 2014, with Sega ultimately being a very poor parent studio in the long run).

[Mechanicus Tech-Support]

28 minutes ago, Dr. Clock said:

Ideally I'd think the scale could be pretty much bang on 40k's tbh... TW:Warhammer ends up being much bigger than you can realistically achieve in a game of tabletop Warhammer. But like... 10 Marines or 20 Guard has to be the baseline unit so an IG army stack is like ~160 infantry, 6 tanks, 4 other vehicles and 2 characters? I can't imagine they'll explode the lore so much that marine squads are suddenly all 20 bricks... And likewise if it's a combat squad of 5 as baseline you'd cap out at 95 marines + 1 character in a stack which seems low, especially once you bake in about half the slots for vehicles, cannons and, ahem, cavalry. Biggest question mark off the hop would be whether transports are units on their own or bought as 'mounted squads'.

 

Ah - who'm I kidding, I just hope there's no siege gate bug.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

You know damn well there's gonna be a siege bug, its tradition at this point

 

I don't think they'll do marines all in bricks of 20, Im honestly picturing reskinned ogre kingdoms as what a marine army may somewhat look like or at least be used as a stateblock base.

Also curious if SM will get rolled in for an Imperium faction (grand alliance type of thing) but judging by the DLC of the TW:WH games I'm guessing we will eventually see most of what we get on the tabletop faction wise.

Wondering if we'll get a planetary galactic map similar to mortal kingdoms or if they go the Empire route with different systems connected 

[Marshal Rohr]

35 minutes ago, mecanojavi99 said:

I'm personally on the camp of 40K doesn't suit the Total War formula, but "the Imperium factions fighting each other doesn't make sense" argument is one of the silliest.

 

In Total War Warhammer that kind of thing happens in every single campaign, you can go to war with Tyrion as Teclis, you can take over the Empire and kill Karl Franz as Gelt, you can conquer the other Lizardmen cities and kill characters like Mazdamundi and Krok Gar as Tiq'Taq'To, Morgiana can be killed by Louen...

 

Heck, if we followed canon like that in the Warhammer series, you would always lose the campaign after Chaos blows up the world...

It’s only the silliest argument if your only frame of reference is memes, video games, and YouTube grifters. However, if you actually read the lore, you will see that the scenario that you described in Total Warhammer is exactly the issue I described. It’s no longer Warhammer. It’s just a terrible coat of paint. 

[Scribe]

Gentlemen, when the time comes and I can charge my World Eaters into a wall of Guard and listen to glorious Chain Axe noises, I will not care about if its 100% accurate to the increasingly mid lore. ;)

[Marshal Rohr]

Just now, Scribe said:

Gentlemen, when the time comes and I can charge my World Eaters into a wall of Guard and listen to glorious Chain Axe noises, I will not care about if its 100% accurate to the increasingly mid lore. ;)

Sadly your World Eaters pathing will be messed up by a small rock the AI thinks is a large rock, your squad will wheel around it and get charged by the guardsmen, who will now get a flanking bonus and their bayonets are actually anti-infantry because Ursula Creed defeated Abaddon when Abaddon got stuck with his starting units chasing an Eldar army that gets to fast march 3% faster than every other race (but the AI doesn’t account for that) so your squad of long war veteran Bezerkers take 50% damage immediately, then route and fall back off the map. Also you have wizards. 

[Scribe]

5 minutes ago, Marshal Rohr said:

Sadly your World Eaters pathing will be messed up by a small rock the AI thinks is a large rock, your squad will wheel around it and get charged by the guardsmen, who will now get a flanking bonus and their bayonets are actually anti-infantry because Ursula Creed defeated Abaddon when Abaddon got stuck with his starting units chasing an Eldar army that gets to fast march 3% faster than every other race (but the AI doesn’t account for that) so your squad of long war veteran Bezerkers take 50% damage immediately, then route and fall back off the map. Also you have wizards. 

 

I have over 3000 hours into the series, I'm quite sure a melee charge can happen quite easily, and unless GW decides to start putting Sorcerers into the World Eaters, CA wouldnt either.

[Mogger351]

I think it's incredibly short sighted to say it can't work, it's also quite naive to assume the studio would just try and force the setting into their mold as well.

 

If they undertake a work such as this, they will know what to expect, what they're dealing with and how they need to update the game formula.

 

That all said, the limitations of the game engine are exactly that. It might not even be the same engine, it might have had work done. You can't base assumptions on technological limitations of yesteryears game for one that is hypothetically 2 years out, if it even exists.

 

I can see it ending up either an epic scale game, or closer to a dawn of war, with fewer, smaller units than is familiar for TW games.

 

Honestly it might be better/easier to do the former where a block of 50 marines makes more sense.

Edited January 1 by Mogger351

[Indy Techwisp]

If you want massive 20 Man blocks of Space Marines as your Baseline, you want TWWH: HH and not TWWH: 40k.

 

Honestly IMO TWWH: HH would work a lot better in the Total War engine, but you'd miss out on a lot of variety between units 'cause most of the factions would just be copies of the others (imagine TWWH but you only have the Empire factions).

 

As for TWWH: 40k, I expect both LSM and CSM would end up working like Warriors of Chaos from TWWH where you have just tons of subfactions within the Faction but the majority of stuff is shared.

 

Also LSM's tier one basic units will probably be Scouts (Shotgun), Scouts (Bolter) and Scouts (CQC) with Scout Snipers being a Tier 2 unit that's immediately usurped by Eliminators in Tier 3.

 

As for Transports, I'd say they'd probably have the Vehicle as a single entity unit that has a 1/battle ability to Spawn a unit next to them. So a Chaos Rhino can drive up to the enemy and then just Spawn 10 Legionnaires before you run the vehicle away.

[TheVoidDragon]

13 hours ago, Scribe said:

 

I have a hilarious amount of time invested into TW Warhammer, and with the various unit types represented, I have no doubt that 40K in a fashion recognizable as 40K, could be done.

 

Please explain how, then? Which of these 2 things do you think is not the case and therefore it can work?

- The Total War series revolves around the Early Modern era style of Warfare or earlier, depicting something comparable to a Napoleonic War style with units fighting in large singular blocks, maneuvering and fighting in formation with each member arranged right next to each other, standing in line to fight and trade fire with the enemy while standing still with little to no initiative shown. This is what the series has been about from the very start, what its engine focuses around and is built for, and just in general what the series does.
- The style of Warfare depicted in 40k lore is generally closer to modern warfare (with more melee). Eldar, Tau, Orks etc do not fight in formation in dozens-strong blocks, standing out in the open to trade fire like they're 18th century line infantry. They make use of cover and suppression tactics, operate at a squad level with members organized into small units, and individuals have a level of initiative that lets them behave on their own to some extent. They are not standing next to each other organized, fighting and maneuvering as a single block.

 

I don't think anyone saying it couldn't work is claiming that they wouldn't make a fun 40k game, just that in order to do so one of those 2 things will have to have significant changes made for it to happen. The franchise already has monsters, magic etc even vehicles and air units to some extent that can be trasferred to the 40k setting just fine, those things would work, but  it's the behaviour of individual unit members and the overall depicted style of combat that is the issue. It's the same reason WW1, WW2, Star Wars, Modern day etc combat also would not work, as that more free-form, fluid, less strict non-rank-and-file warfare is such a huge difference from what the series does.

Edited January 1 by TheVoidDragon