How do you beat Nidzilla with marines?

[Galron]

Without using the stupid crutch of g-man, how do you beat  a full Nidzilla force? I faced one today and they just lined up and rushed me. No strategy, just run and gun. They have better guns than us, better toughness than our vehicles, more invuls, better armor and the list goes on.

hive tyrant-the weakest unit in the list

3 gun bugs the -3ap 3d d6+3 blast

1 big gun bug the one with d6+6 torrent -2 ap 2d and a mass fire weapon which is ridiculously cheap

3 brain bugs everyone within 6" is -1 to hit and anothe d6+ something blast -2ap 3 damage weapon

6 neurothropes

1 monster neuropthrope with the flamer

2 lictors so cheap for what they do, why cant we have a character this good? No really, I'll pay 100 points for a character this good.

3 pyrovores to guard the rear

gargoyles

He uses the detachment that lets you pick whatever ability you want based on who you are fighting. If I play guard he played lethal vs vehicles. Here he played sustained vs infantry.

How do you beat this? He has played this or a slight variation of this for years. The only army I have ever beat him with was my guard light cav army which was all chimeras, hellhounds, sentinels, and a few leman russes, sentinels and a rogel dorn, This was because of all the lethals with the vehicles. I dont think I have ever beat him with marines.

This time I tried the new stuff to see if maybe it would work.

 

Firestorm detachment

Lysander and 10 terminators with cyclones

10 sterngaurd in a drop pod

10 Infernus in a drop pod

10 vanguard vets with hand flamers

jump captain with the +3 strength enhancement

5 infiltrators

phobos libby

2 Ballistus dreads

Thunderstrike skimmer- did next to no damage but the +1 to wound was nice, needs a price drop.

5 Jump intercessors

I lost 71-32. I had a Ballistus that survived on 1 wound the whole game thanks to armor of contempt. The two of them managed to kill the Hive tyrant turn one. He had first turn on a Hidden supplies primary and burden of trust game. He had all four no mans land objectives T1 and the entire half the board screened.

Oh, is there no max on Hidden Supplies and Burden of Trust? He effectively had 24 primary on the start of turn 2 if there wasnt.

 

I dropped units but he had flamers from hell for overwatch. My infernus and vanguard managed to kill all the nuerothropes and all but four wounds on the monster thing leader using thier dev wounds strat twice which he countered with the FNP strat. Both units quickly got reduced by blast and torrent weapons. Turn 4 and 5 my terminators and sternguard with the broken ballistus managed to start taking down all three brain bugs and both one of the gun bugs and the big gun bug but he was already at 70+ and max primary.

 

So how do you win against bull rush armies that are literally too tough to take down like this that can jump on primaries and hold them long enough to max them out and screen out the rest of the board? These lists somehow arent taking over the meta so obviously someone has figured out how to beat them.

[TheNicronomicon]

Vindicators, Lancers, Godhammer Land Raiders. Bringing infantry to a tank fight is usually gonna be a bad time, and those bugs are tanks. 
sounds like he was running:
3x Exocrines

1x Tyrannofex with acid spray

3x Maleceptors

6x Zoanthropes lead by

1x Neurotyrant

2x lictors

10-20x gargoyles

 

That’s a lotta beef to chew through, and a pretty competitive/optimized list to play against. If you can play him again try adding a bunch more anti-tank and see how it goes. Good luck, brother!

[Galron]

Oh I will play him again. We get a game every few months. Trying not to tailor as he doesnt tailor his list at all. This is just his list. He might swap out a unit here and there, first time I have seen the Tyrannofex, usually he runs two hive tyrants. Maybe drops the gargolyes and runs deathleaper and whatever the upgraded lictors are instead of the standard lictors but the core stays the same, 3 guns, 3 brains, 6 neuros+tyrant, 3 pyros, 1+ hive tyrant.

 

Limited on units, was trying for fast and speedy instead of tanky and slow. I wonder how my Dark Light DE list will work once I get it going.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Gladiator Lancers always serve me well against big bugs.  They have enough range to keep back on your table edge (to avoid getting rushed too early) and accurate, high-AP, high-damage main guns to slap down the monsters.

[TheNicronomicon]

39 minutes ago, Galron said:

Oh I will play him again. We get a game every few months. Trying not to tailor as he doesnt tailor his list at all. This is just his list. He might swap out a unit here and there, first time I have seen the Tyrannofex, usually he runs two hive tyrants. Maybe drops the gargolyes and runs deathleaper and whatever the upgraded lictors are instead of the standard lictors but the core stays the same, 3 guns, 3 brains, 6 neuros+tyrant, 3 pyros, 1+ hive tyrant.

 

Limited on units, was trying for fast and speedy instead of tanky and slow. I wonder how my Dark Light DE list will work once I get it going.

I don’t think there’s any shame in retooling completely after a loss like that, though I do understand limited model access. 

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Galron said:

Oh I will play him again. We get a game every few months. Trying not to tailor as he doesnt tailor his list at all.

Just because he was already tailored doesn't mean he doesn't tailor - in other words If his usual list turns into what someone would tailor into... some counter tailoring might be necessary.  Let's say you run 3 sets of Firestrike Turrets and a big block of Assault Centurions.  Right now they're... less than optimal.  But in 11th that's THE list for Space Marines for the first 6-9 months of 11th.  You didn't "tailor" into it, it was tailored for you.  But you're still kind of tailored.  You can keep running the stuff you like just expect the counter-tailor.  Nobody's "fault" (assuming it was roughly the same build previous edition). 

[Rhavien]

I absolutely agree. His nidzilla list is a skew list of its own. Basically a rock who will nearly always beat scissors but crumbles if facing paper. Paper would be massive anti-tank / monster lists. If you would always run land raiders, predators, lancers and ballistus dreads it would be the same just the other way around. 

[Tacitus]

6 hours ago, Rhavien said:

I absolutely agree. His nidzilla list is a skew list of its own. Basically a rock who will nearly always beat scissors but crumbles if facing paper. Paper would be massive anti-tank / monster lists. If you would always run land raiders, predators, lancers and ballistus dreads it would be the same just the other way around. 

Yeah, its not that he's actively "tailoring" or even that tailoring is itself bad.  He could have been running Nidzilla since second, and just happened to hit the meta this time around - the end result is the same - a tailored list - even if he fell into it backwards.  If you play long enough it'll happen to everybody eventually you just have to either actively "un-tailor" your list or accept and encourage your opponents to tailor for the skew. 

[TheNicronomicon]

52 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Yeah, its not that he's actively "tailoring" or even that tailoring is itself bad.  He could have been running Nidzilla since second, and just happened to hit the meta this time around - the end result is the same - a tailored list - even if he fell into it backwards.  If you play long enough it'll happen to everybody eventually you just have to either actively "un-tailor" your list or accept and encourage your opponents to tailor for the skew. 

Right—if it were an Unending Swarm lost with lots of little bugs against that same marine list it would’ve been a much different game. Growth is change and you’ve gotta iterate to get better results. 

Edited January 5 by TheNicronomicon

[HeadlessCross]

We can start with the obvious problem of how you're using Lysander. Regular Terminators suck hard. If you want Terminators, use the Assault ones. 

 

You're also not making use of Firestorm's rules and Strats basically. Your list would function a lot better under Gladius, Vanguard, or Ironstorm. 

 

You don't need the Phobos Libby for Infiltrators. 

 

Replace your Vanguard Vets with more Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs. I get what you're trying to do with the one Strat, but that's not gonna work without Vulkan giving you rerolls.

[Galron]

Going to print up a few lancers just to have them. Not a fan of them but against him I will make an exception. We actually have two nidzilla players who play very similar lists, weird thing is they never knew each other prior to finding a game on discord and showed up for almost a mirror match. New guy uses two Tyranofexes and emmissaries and only two of the smaller gun bugs and brain bugs, dont remember how many hive tyrants if any. He also ties up the board with spore mines from a biovore.

Here is what I will try next time based on what I have aside from lancers.

Vanguard to reduce his ability to hit me a bit

Lt in phobos armor  with ghostweave cloak for doing actions

2x5 assault intercessor squads

intercessor squad

jump intercessor squad

6 inceptors with plasma

 

2 Ballistus

3 lancers

predator destructor

Storm Speeder Thunderstrike

Vindicator

2 impulsors with missiles

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

We can start with the obvious problem of how you're using Lysander. Regular Terminators suck hard. If you want Terminators, use the Assault ones. 

 

You're also not making use of Firestorm's rules and Strats basically. Your list would function a lot better under Gladius, Vanguard, or Ironstorm. 

 

You don't need the Phobos Libby for Infiltrators. 

 

Replace your Vanguard Vets with more Assault Intercessors with Jump Packs. I get what you're trying to do with the one Strat, but that's not gonna work without Vulkan giving you rerolls.

I wouldn't say regular Terminators Suck hard, they're not overpowered, and they don't suck.  I agree they probably don't synergize with Lysander very well who wants to run up (potentially at the expense of shooting a turn or two on the way) and smack people yet doesn't provide the tools to do so.  Lysander desperately wants to be in Stormlance because he doesn't bring Advance and Shoot/Charge on his own.   That said, Lysander does not have to be leading a Terminator Squad to give them OC2.  He can join a Terminator Assault Squad, give them OC 2 and also give OC2 to Shootinators in the center holding an objective.

 

Firestorm is not the "typical" Imperial Fists Det.  Its the "inspiration" for Salamanders. He's got the Torrent units, but not the Transports, 3 out of 6 (really out of 5 because of the universal AOC) require a Transport.  The more typical/fluffy/expected combo here would be Tor Garadon + Heavy Intercessors and the Anvil Seige Force.  That may or may not help beat Nidzilla.

 

I like the Phobos Libby with 5 Infiltrators.  Too much work to go after - especially from Nidzilla.  You get to infiltrate too far away to be worth sending 2-3x as many points in Monsters way into the deep field.  Its not a power unit, its a headache unit.  

 

Also I like the idea of Vanguard Det and a bunch of Eradicators running around vs Nidzilla.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Going heavy on big guns, Ironstorm may be a good idea.  The Lancers probably don't need the rerolls, but everyone else will appreciate the ability to smooth out the occasional hit, wound, or damage roll of a 1.

[Tacitus]

43 minutes ago, Iron Father Ferrum said:

Going heavy on big guns, Ironstorm may be a good idea.  The Lancers probably don't need the rerolls, but everyone else will appreciate the ability to smooth out the occasional hit, wound, or damage roll of a 1.

Don't forget also you're still capped at an end result of +1 thru -1 for To Hit and To Wound so the Speeder and OOM, and a few other rules become somewhat exclusionary.  Now, I'm sure Nidzilla has more than 5 Monsters so you can certainly use some extra +1 to Wound Monsters and the speeder is a great gun platform even without the bespoke - but its worth keeping in mind as the OP mentioned that's why he had the speeder.

 

Also I've been remiss not directly pointing this out:  Tor Garaddon can one-round one of the Big Knights.  Dude puts out 5 S14 -4 D4 attacks vs Monsters.  So he hits on re-rollable 2's, (with +1 to Wound) he wounds on 2's, and the Tyrannofex saves on 6's.  

[Galron]

The OoM and the Hammerstrike was the purpose here. It came in handy last game as well. The +1 to wound with enough guns will typically kill most targets and leave some guns to spare. I realize one issue I had was I deep struck quite a bit with the pods and flamers to get them in a position to actually be able to hurt my opponent, once the guns were present they did do damage. The last two turns the combo of the hammerstrike(who did no damage both turns but gave the +1) and OoM, the terminators 1 damage ballistus , sternguard, and remnants of the infernus managed to clear 3 brain bugs, an exocrine, lictor, and a tyranofex. Too little, too late however and if you notice, ballistus aside, its all short range and melee, while his army is long range and melee.

 

I brought Lysander strickly for the -1D for his terminators and for his hammer which did kill the tyrannofex at the end with two dev hits. I knew adding endurance for the terminators was more important than anything else which was how they ended up only losing 3 the whole game even though they got hit with a lot of 3D weapons.

[Tacitus]

42 minutes ago, Galron said:

The OoM and the Hammerstrike was the purpose here. It came in handy last game as well. The +1 to wound with enough guns will typically kill most targets and leave some guns to spare. I realize one issue I had was I deep struck quite a bit with the pods and flamers to get them in a position to actually be able to hurt my opponent, once the guns were present they did do damage. The last two turns the combo of the hammerstrike(who did no damage both turns but gave the +1) and OoM, the terminators 1 damage ballistus , sternguard, and remnants of the infernus managed to clear 3 brain bugs, an exocrine, lictor, and a tyranofex. Too little, too late however and if you notice, ballistus aside, its all short range and melee, while his army is long range and melee.

 

I brought Lysander strickly for the -1D for his terminators and for his hammer which did kill the tyrannofex at the end with two dev hits. I knew adding endurance for the terminators was more important than anything else which was how they ended up only losing 3 the whole game even though they got hit with a lot of 3D weapons.

What ruleset are you using?  The Hammerstrike I assume you mean the Thunderstrike for +1 to wound the Hammerstrike prevents the benefit of cover.  But Lysander doesn't do -1D?

[HeadlessCross]

7 hours ago, Tacitus said:

I wouldn't say regular Terminators Suck hard, they're not overpowered, and they don't suck.  I agree they probably don't synergize with Lysander very well who wants to run up (potentially at the expense of shooting a turn or two on the way) and smack people yet doesn't provide the tools to do so.  Lysander desperately wants to be in Stormlance because he doesn't bring Advance and Shoot/Charge on his own.   That said, Lysander does not have to be leading a Terminator Squad to give them OC2.  He can join a Terminator Assault Squad, give them OC 2 and also give OC2 to Shootinators in the center holding an objective.

 

Firestorm is not the "typical" Imperial Fists Det.  Its the "inspiration" for Salamanders. He's got the Torrent units, but not the Transports, 3 out of 6 (really out of 5 because of the universal AOC) require a Transport.  The more typical/fluffy/expected combo here would be Tor Garadon + Heavy Intercessors and the Anvil Seige Force.  That may or may not help beat Nidzilla.

 

I like the Phobos Libby with 5 Infiltrators.  Too much work to go after - especially from Nidzilla.  You get to infiltrate too far away to be worth sending 2-3x as many points in Monsters way into the deep field.  Its not a power unit, its a headache unit.  

 

Also I like the idea of Vanguard Det and a bunch of Eradicators running around vs Nidzilla.

1. No, regular Terminators are pretty damn awful. Only Deathwing Knights and Deathwatch Terminators work for a reason. No OC2 is going to fix that, and should only be treated as a neat little bonus for whatever Lysander is leading. 

2. Firestorm legit only works with Salamanders if you're trying any Torrent weapon not already Twin Linked. The reroll from Vulkan matters too much. 

3. Tyranid non-LoS shots aren't dangerous enough for Infiltrators to be afraid. The 70 points can go somewhere else. 

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

1. No, regular Terminators are pretty damn awful. Only Deathwing Knights and Deathwatch Terminators work for a reason. No OC2 is going to fix that, and should only be treated as a neat little bonus for whatever Lysander is leading. 

2. Firestorm legit only works with Salamanders if you're trying any Torrent weapon not already Twin Linked. The reroll from Vulkan matters too much. 

3. Tyranid non-LoS shots aren't dangerous enough for Infiltrators to be afraid. The 70 points can go somewhere else. 

1) Aggressors are about 40 PPM.  Terminators are about 35.  Aggressors have a little better shooting, Terminators have some hidden Chain Fists, more HQ options, and a 2+/4++

2) Pretty sure you didn't read my post.

3) Even more sure you didn't read it because I talked about making 5 Infil + Libby too small to draw a Big Monster into 12" or less range, and said absolutely nothing about indirect fire. 

[Galron]

Well I played that wrong. Where the heck did I see he gave-1D damage to the unit he was leading as part of his rules? Granted, I think the -1 to wound would have been far more beneficial with all the S8-12 weapons he was throwing their way.

 

I always get the new speeder names mixed up. Whatever speeder has a max 5 shots that gives a +1 to wound vehicles and monsters. I think they are both overcosted given their actual output.

 

 

[Karhedron]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

1) Aggressors are about 40 PPM.  Terminators are about 35.  Aggressors have a little better shooting, Terminators have some hidden Chain Fists, more HQ options, and a 2+/4++

 

Aggressors also have Twin-Linked on their Fists meaning they can reliably punch up against Vehicles/Monsters. Termies struggle against T8+.

[Tacitus]

Those Chainfists I mentioned are Anti-Vehicle 3+.  Not much good against monsters sure, but almost nothing is Anti-Monster.  We're still at Aggressors with a sidegrade to very minor downgrade into Terminators which is a far cry from "Terminators Suck"

 

Edit to Add:  The real bonus Aggressors had over Terminators was the Aggressor Bomb.  Terminators do not have a Lieutenant, while Aggressors had the Biologis.  But the Bomb has been defused.  Now they're about on par.

Edited January 6 by Tacitus

[Karhedron]

14 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

We're still at Aggressors with a sidegrade to very minor downgrade into Terminators which is a far cry from "Terminators Suck"

 

They are units with different applications, despite their superficial similarities. Aggressors are a hammer unit which have a higher damage output, largely thanks to their weapons being twin-linked. Terminators are an anvil unit with their 2+/4++ who also have the ability to Deep Strike and thus need less in the way of support such as Transport.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Karhedron said:

 

They are units with different applications, despite their superficial similarities. Aggressors are a hammer unit which have a higher damage output, largely thanks to their weapons being twin-linked. Terminators are an anvil unit with their 2+/4++ who also have the ability to Deep Strike and thus need less in the way of support such as Transport.

Different applications only at the extremes.  They cover a lot of the same middle ground with T6 3+ vs T5 2+/4++ and 3 rerollables +3.5 vs 2(4) BEQ (Bolter Equivalent) that will then get further washed by the TEQ Heavies. The biggest Left/Right influence is Leader.  The Who Can Lead What problem.  Even though the two units are pretty similar high T, durable, lower M the leaders really don't cross over.   Even Calgar who can lead Aggressors and Power Armoreds like Bladeguard can't lead Terminators.  Which is too bad, I'd love to stick Calgar in a Terminator (Assault?) Squad.  I haven't done a deep dive but surface level I'd say Terminator vs Aggressor Squads is 45/55 while Terminator vs Gravis LEADERs is 55/45 - There's the obvious Chappie to give them a 2+/4++/4+++ absolute brick wall leaning into the anvil part- there's a Captain to reroll flubbed charges, and the Libby that does a little of both with situational 4+++ and Sustained Hits 1.   Gravis is more likely for a named special, with only the two generic LEADERs - one of which does almost nothing for the unit he leads.  Pretty much 2 roads to the same place. 

 

With that said, I'd further say the trick is to double up.  One leans Hammer, the other leans anvil.  So pair them up.  Charge the Terminators in, Charge your Aggressors and/or Bladeguard in.  Grind it out. Use Calgar to Fall Back and Charge back in.  Find and work the balance combos. 

[TheNicronomicon]

18 hours ago, Galron said:

Going to print up a few lancers just to have them. Not a fan of them but against him I will make an exception. We actually have two nidzilla players who play very similar lists, weird thing is they never knew each other prior to finding a game on discord and showed up for almost a mirror match. New guy uses two Tyranofexes and emmissaries and only two of the smaller gun bugs and brain bugs, dont remember how many hive tyrants if any. He also ties up the board with spore mines from a biovore.

Here is what I will try next time based on what I have aside from lancers.

Vanguard to reduce his ability to hit me a bit

Lt in phobos armor  with ghostweave cloak for doing actions

2x5 assault intercessor squads

intercessor squad

jump intercessor squad

6 inceptors with plasma

 

2 Ballistus

3 lancers

predator destructor

Storm Speeder Thunderstrike

Vindicator

2 impulsors with missiles

That sounds much more likely to hang with his list. Might consider switching the Impulsors to the shield generator instead of the missiles to make them a little tankier. They’re even better if you can proxy some Hellblasters or Infernus marines in there—they can still shoot but they’ll have the hull protecting them. The pyrovores won’t like that. 

 

If you’ve got a 2nd jump unit they’ll give you more flexibility than the Intercessors, I think, but then again with the Inceptors you’ve got plenty of deep-striking action monkeys already if you need them. You’re probably better off with  Ironstorm with this many vehicles. 

[HeadlessCross]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Those Chainfists I mentioned are Anti-Vehicle 3+.  Not much good against monsters sure, but almost nothing is Anti-Monster.  We're still at Aggressors with a sidegrade to very minor downgrade into Terminators which is a far cry from "Terminators Suck"

 

Edit to Add:  The real bonus Aggressors had over Terminators was the Aggressor Bomb.  Terminators do not have a Lieutenant, while Aggressors had the Biologis.  But the Bomb has been defused.  Now they're about on par.

Chainfists also hit on a 4+, so you'd rather just take the TL Fists instead at that point. Yes, Terminators are bad.

 

Terminators getting a Lieutenant does not matter because getting Lethal Hits from a character is not what makes Aggressors good. Space Wolves still have their Wolf Guard Battle Leader Terminator to give Lethal Hits, and it has done literally nothing. Dark Angels had one before the Supplement and it also did nothing.