Can anyone make sense of the new Krieg rules?

[MechaMan]

Can anyone with the rare skill of games workshop rule reading comprehension help me out. Can we now take 2 meltaguns and 2 plasma guns in a 20 man squad? 

[DemonGSides]

 

 

Basically;

 

A 10 man Krieg will be "best" (IE at least trying to maximize specialists) outfitted with;

1 GL

1 Long Las

1 Plasma/Melta

1 Vox Caster

1 medic

1 watch Master however you can/want.

 

Basically it's pick two from the first list, pick two from the second list, you cannot pick the same weapon more than once unless you bump it to twenty. The second list gets weirder at 20, as you probably don't want two Vox, and instead can go up to 3x plasma/melta, I think.

 

After comparing the entries, some things have changed but not majorly so. 

Edited January 9 by DemonGSides

[DemonGSides]

I do think doubling up on medics is smart. They don't eat up a special weapon but do give a benefit for having two, even if it's diminished a bit. 

[MechaMan]

2 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

I'm pretty sure after a quick read it's exactly the same as it is now. 

I’m really struggling to make sense of it, but it seems to me it’s changed quite a bit.  You can take 2 medics in a 20 man squad. Bolter is gone for Watchmaster. Only one vox caster even in a 20 man squad. 
 

Then atm it says up to 2 can take a plasma and melta, so in a 20 man squad you could take 2 of each. If I’m reading correctly? 

[MechaMan]

20 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

 

Basically;

 

A 10 man Krieg will be "best" (IE at least trying to maximize specialists) outfitted with;

1 GL

1 Long Las

1 Plasma/Melta

1 Vox Caster

1 medic

1 watch Master however you can/want.

 

Basically it's pick two from the first list, pick two from the second list, you cannot pick the same weapon more than once unless you bump it to twenty. The second list gets weirder at 20, as you probably don't want two Vox, and instead can go up to 3x plasma/melta, I think.

 

After comparing the entries, some things have changed but not majorly so. 

Are you sure? The asterisk says you cannot select more than 2 of these options per unit unless it contains 20 models, in which case you cannot select more than four per unit. So we’ve lost one special weapon?
 

thanks for your help btw! And is the name a reference to the gorillaz b side album

Edited January 9 by MechaMan

[Sky Potato]

Still the nonsense of 1 leader, 9 troops OR 2 leaders, 18 troops within a 20 man squad though.

 

Why not 1 leader and 19 troops?

 

The Krieg box has options to build one of the infantry as either the Watchmaster or a regular trooper, so it can't be tied to the "What's in the box" options.

 

It's just weird

[MechaMan]

5 minutes ago, Sky Potato said:

Still the nonsense of 1 leader, 9 troops OR 2 leaders, 18 troops within a 20 man squad though.

 

Why not 1 leader and 19 troops?

 

The Krieg box has options to build one of the infantry as either the Watchmaster or a regular trooper, so it can't be tied to the "What's in the box" options.

 

It's just weird

Yeah it is weird, and now there’s no option to take the boltgun so from a modelling perspective no ability to vary the two/make one a confidant veteran. Both going to have the distinctive pose. 

[Emperor Ming]

Ah so you can still do 3 special weapons per 10

 

or actually looks like 4

Edited January 9 by Emperor Ming

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

It’s pretty plain English if I’m reading it correctly. It’s pretty small on my phone.

 

but yes

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, Sky Potato said:

Still the nonsense of 1 leader, 9 troops OR 2 leaders, 18 troops within a 20 man squad though.

 

Why not 1 leader and 19 troops?

 

The Krieg box has options to build one of the infantry as either the Watchmaster or a regular trooper, so it can't be tied to the "What's in the box" options.

 

It's just weird

Think of it as a sgt and a cpl instead of two sgts.

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, MechaMan said:

Are you sure? The asterisk says you cannot select more than 2 of these options per unit unless it contains 20 models, in which case you cannot select more than four per unit. So we’ve lost one special weapon?
 

thanks for your help btw! And is the name a reference to the gorillaz b side album

 

If we're going based off of what the Death Company deal with (As it's the only unit I can think of off the top of the head that's also borderline requires a PHD to decipher it's Wargear Options), the two different "For Every 10" are BOTH applicable.

Meaning that yes, the asterisks to denote that, but it's WITHIN it's own "For every 10" section.

So in my interpretation, For 10 man it's 2 options from the First Bullet, but they can't be the same, it's two options from the second bullet, but they CAN be the same, and then a medic.  Then for a 20 man it's 4 options from the first bullet (no more than 2 of the same), 4 options from the 2nd bullet (With no restriction on maximum), and then up to two medics.  The *** just means you can't make the MEdic and the Vox caster be the same guy.

That's how I'm reading it;.  I am happy to be told I'm wrong though.  For reference's sake, this is the current set up in the index;

 

Which now that I'm looking at it, it looks like DKOK got a nice lil upgrade.  I've heard that people in the know are saying there will be a day 1 errata to bring back the Boltgun to the Watchmaster as it's included in the box.  Whether that same Errata will bring back Deep Strike to Scions (I am anticipating no) remains to seen.  I think Aquilons are their go-to DS scions now.

[MechaMan]

If they’re going by the kit, per ten you can only assemble 1 boltgun, 1 melta, or one plasma. It wouldn’t surprise me if the second one is a typo and it’s meant to read per ten select one. But I could be wrong. I have to say I’ve always found reading GW rules to be harder than Hegel but maybe that’s just me haha ! 

[TheArtilleryman]

I am reading it as this. In a 10-man squad:

 

I can have 1 flamer and 1 grenade launcher or 1 flamer and 1 long las or 1 grenade launcher and 1 long las. I can’t have 2 of the same weapon from this group.

 

From the second group I can have 2 plasmas or 2 meltas or 1 of each, or 1 plasma/melta and 1 vox caster.

 

I can have 1 medic (who isn’t allowed to be the same guy with the vox caster)

 

I have 1 watchmaster who is allowed to have a plasma pistol and power weapon.

 

That leaves 4 guys with just lasguns.

 

In a 20 man squad every option doubles.

 

Think that’s basically the same as what @DemonGSides said.

Edited January 9 by TheArtilleryman

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, MechaMan said:

Only one vox caster even in a 20 man squad. 

You can have two vox casters in a 20-man. In fact, I’m pretty sure you could have four (although only a nutter would want four). What you can’t have is the same model with a vox and a medipack, and for every vox you take you have to give up a melta/plasma slot.

 

2 hours ago, Emperor Ming said:

or actually looks like 4

Yep you can have 4. Two from group 1 and 2 from group 2.

Edited January 9 by TheArtilleryman

[DemonGSides]

7 hours ago, MechaMan said:

thanks for your help btw! And is the name a reference to the gorillaz b side album

 

 

Absolutely no problem!  These new datasheets can get weird, especially if they came out of the Kill Team section.

And yes it is!  Huge fan! Mashed up Demon Days and G Sides damn near two decades ago for a screen name somewhere and it stuck.

Edited January 10 by DemonGSides

[MechaMan]

38 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

And yes it is!  Huge fan! Mashed up Demon Days and G Sides damn near two decades ago for a screen name somewhere and it stuck.

Love it! Feel good inc was the first single I ever bought! If you’ve not seen the documentary bananaz it’s an amazing watch. You’ve got me listening to Stop the Dams now haha. 
 

I’m still a bit baffled by the asterisks’, and the fact that you can’t build the options with the sprues in the box. Very much appreciate the hermeneutic help. 

[CyderPirate]

I think the idea is that the number of special weapons per 10 is the same across the 3 infantry squads, just in the most complicated way possible. 

The asterisks group the options across multiple entries, applying those restrictions to all of the options with those markers. That prevents the Vox also taking the med-kit, for example.

The * note, preventing double-picks applies to all 6 options, so you can't double up on any of the special weapons unless the unit is 20-strong.
The ** note applies to the five special weapons options combined, so you can have up to 2 per 10 (or 4 in 20) from: flamer, GL, long-las, melta or plasma.

So in a 10 man squad you could have a melta and plasma but you wouldn't be able to take a vox, or anything from the top list. 

As I read it, even though both sections say 'For every 10 models in this unit, up to 2..." you can never get 4 options from the list. 

 

 

[DemonGSides]

5 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

I think the idea is that the number of special weapons per 10 is the same across the 3 infantry squads, just in the most complicated way possible. 

The asterisks group the options across multiple entries, applying those restrictions to all of the options with those markers. That prevents the Vox also taking the med-kit, for example.

The * note, preventing double-picks applies to all 6 options, so you can't double up on any of the special weapons unless the unit is 20-strong.
The ** note applies to the five special weapons options combined, so you can have up to 2 per 10 (or 4 in 20) from: flamer, GL, long-las, melta or plasma.

So in a 10 man squad you could have a melta and plasma but you wouldn't be able to take a vox, or anything from the top list. 

As I read it, even though both sections say 'For every 10 models in this unit, up to 2..." you can never get 4 options from the list.

 

I just don't know why they didn't put them in the same list together if it's supposed to work this way.  Or just kept it the way it was in the Index.

I also don't like the idea of the three battleline being more similar.  I'd prefer them all be individualized in ways; let Cadians be the OC guys, let Krieg be the "bigger damage" guys, let Catachan be the Forward Recon element.

[DemonGSides]

10 hours ago, MechaMan said:

Love it! Feel good inc was the first single I ever bought! If you’ve not seen the documentary bananaz it’s an amazing watch. You’ve got me listening to Stop the Dams now haha. 
 

I’m still a bit baffled by the asterisks’, and the fact that you can’t build the options with the sprues in the box. Very much appreciate the hermeneutic help. 

 

Honestly the more I look at it the more I think I was incorrect, but honestly it's a nightmare datasheet.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

6 hours ago, CyderPirate said:

I think the idea is that the number of special weapons per 10 is the same across the 3 infantry squads, just in the most complicated way possible. 

The asterisks group the options across multiple entries, applying those restrictions to all of the options with those markers. That prevents the Vox also taking the med-kit, for example.

The * note, preventing double-picks applies to all 6 options, so you can't double up on any of the special weapons unless the unit is 20-strong.
The ** note applies to the five special weapons options combined, so you can have up to 2 per 10 (or 4 in 20) from: flamer, GL, long-las, melta or plasma.

So in a 10 man squad you could have a melta and plasma but you wouldn't be able to take a vox, or anything from the top list. 

As I read it, even though both sections say 'For every 10 models in this unit, up to 2..." you can never get 4 options from the list. 

 

 

It definitely isn’t meant to be the same number of special weapons across all 3 infantry datasheets

 

its quite clear krieg can have up to 4.

catachan and Cadians will likely be stuck at 2 with Catachans likely still being locked in to flamers only.

[MechaMan]

57 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

its quite clear krieg can have up to 4.

catachan and Cadians will likely be stuck at 2 with Catachans likely still being locked in to flamers only.

So what do you make of the second asterisk, which is attached to every option bar the vox caster, which says you can only take two unless it’s a twenty man squad, then you can take four? 

[CyderPirate]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

its quite clear krieg can have up to 4.

catachan and Cadians will likely be stuck at 2 with Catachans likely still being locked in to flamers only.

I don't think that's right - unless you mean in a 20-man squad. 
Can you explain how you've reached that conclusion?  I'd be very happy to be wrong, but I think the correct read is 2 special weapons, medic, and vox per 10. 

If you're working off the basis that you can pick 2 from the top and 2 from the bottom, the **note says you can only pick two that are marked, which is all of the special weapons. 

Just to clarify that footnotes apply across all of the selections together, rather than separately, the *** note says that a model can only ever take one of these options. The only two options that have that (the vox and medic) are in different sections, so it would be meaningless. 

[Emperor Ming]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Honestly the more I look at it the more I think I was incorrect, but honestly it's a nightmare datasheet.

Same! and im a vet from 2nd ed

 

New gamers must be flummoxed sometimes by how complex some of the new wording is

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, MechaMan said:

So what do you make of the second asterisk, which is attached to every option bar the vox caster, which says you can only take two unless it’s a twenty man squad, then you can take four? 

It means in a 10 man squad you can only have two of those options.

there are 2 lists, and you can take two from each, in one case you can’t have doubles(per 10) in the case of the other list you can have doubles.

 

list 1 pick 2 they cant be doubles per 10.

list 2 pick 2 they can be doubles per 10, but vox cast and medipack can be taken instead of 2 of those special weapons from either list.

so either 4 special weapons or 3 specials and a medipack, or 3 specials and a vox, or 2 special weapons and a medipack and a vox, per 10.

You’ll notice in the second list, the vox is listed amongst the special weapons, and the medipack is completely separate from both lists.

each bullet point is it’s own stand alone option.

you’re trying to read way too much into this.

 

 

20 minutes ago, CyderPirate said:

I don't think that's right - unless you mean in a 20-man squad. 
Can you explain how you've reached that conclusion?  I'd be very happy to be wrong, but I think the correct read is 2 special weapons, medic, and vox per 10. 

If you're working off the basis that you can pick 2 from the top and 2 from the bottom, the **note says you can only pick two that are marked, which is all of the special weapons. 

Just to clarify that footnotes apply across all of the selections together, rather than separately, the *** note says that a model can only ever take one of these options. The only two options that have that (the vox and medic) are in different sections, so it would be meaningless. 

See my above post

you can either go extremely heavy on specials with 4, or heavy on specials w/ 3 and a medipack or a vox, or 2 specials and both a medipack and a vox.

 

there is absolutely nothing indicating this is a one or the other option. If I’m not mistaken the kreig squad currently has the options of 3 specials and a vox, or 2 specials, a vox and a medipack.

one extra special being traded for a vox isn’t that big of a difference in the end.

Edited January 10 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[MechaMan]

17 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It means in a 10 man squad you can only have two of those options.

there are 2 lists, and you can take two from each, in one case you can’t have doubles(per 10) in the case of the other list you can have doubles.

 

But the ** second asterisk says “you cannot select more than two of these options per unit unless it contains 20 models, in which case you cannot select more than four per unit.” The asterisk is found at the end of every special weapon, and as @CyderPiratesays the asterisks apply across all sections, rather than separately, so - as written - it ought to apply to all of them collectively. That would suggest that you cannot have more than two special weapons in a ten man squad, four in a twenty man squad. Surely? 
 

as written the rules are definitely opaque and having a look on Reddit etc the interpretations seem split down the middle. 

Edited January 10 by MechaMan