Can anyone make sense of the new Krieg rules?

[Galron]

Yeah, you get a medic or two regardless. He doesnt take up a special weapon or vox slot.

[Maritn]

3 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

If you say so. I’ll reread it when the codex is actually out. I have no interest in looking at a :cuss:ty photo full of glare again.

I can confirm what he wrote, even though the codex I have is not the English one, that's what it says in my book.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah the codex says exactly what the blurry photos say because the blurry photos were of the same codex lol

 

It's still a poorly written datasheet.

[Sergeant Bastone]

I think the whole point is to say that if you take a Plasma gun AND a meltagun then you can't take a vox.  If you take one of plasma/melta plus one of the other special weapons (grenade launcher, flamer) then you can take a vox.  

[DemonGSides]

41 minutes ago, Sergeant Bastone said:

I think the whole point is to say that if you take a Plasma gun AND a meltagun then you can't take a vox.  If you take one of plasma/melta plus one of the other special weapons (grenade launcher, flamer) then you can take a vox.  

 

The way the datasheet is currently written in Index is both more readable and has a better choice of options.

 

It just a painfully bad re-write, especially when Vox's aren't worth as much as a special weapon.  If the consideration of damage vs a 50/50 CP in an army that has lots of CP generating options, it's a no brainer and that's less interesting.

 

They could have left the loadout exactly the same as the index and this whole thread could've not existed. 

[The Pounder]

So in a 20 man squad you could take 2 Grenade Launchers (or Flamers), a single Plasmagun (or Meltagun) and still have a vox and 2 medics?

[TheArtilleryman]

23 minutes ago, The Pounder said:

So in a 20 man squad you could take 2 Grenade Launchers (or Flamers), a single Plasmagun (or Meltagun) and still have a vox and 2 medics?

Yes, assuming those above have the correct interpretation.

 

Feels a bit pitiful to me though for the size of the squad.

[Crimson Longinus]

2 hours ago, The Pounder said:

So in a 20 man squad you could take 2 Grenade Launchers (or Flamers), a single Plasmagun (or Meltagun) and still have a vox and 2 medics?

 

No. (Or you certainly can have that, but you can have more.)

 

It is two specials per ten, so four for 20, and as long as one of those weapons is from the first category you can take the vox.

 

So 20-man squad could have two plasmas, single melta, single flamer and a vox. (And two medics, but they're unrelated to this mess.)

[Emperor Ming]

46 minutes ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

No. (Or you certainly can have that, but you can have more.)

 

It is two specials per ten, so four for 20, and as long as one of those weapons is from the first category you can take the vox.

 

So 20-man squad could have two plasmas, single melta, single flamer and a vox. (And two medics, but they're unrelated to this mess.)

 

Is it not 6 specials? cos currently you can do medic, plasma, melta, grenade

 

Giving up a plasmagun for a vox caster is not a tactically sound idea

[Crimson Longinus]

10 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

 

Is it not 6 specials? cos currently you can do medic, plasma, melta, grenade

No, it is not like than anymore.

 

10 minutes ago, Emperor Ming said:

Giving up a plasmagun for a vox caster is not a tactically sound idea

How about giving up a melta for vox and grenade launcher?

 

 

Edited January 29 by Crimson Longinus

[TheArtilleryman]

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

9 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

No. (Or you certainly can have that, but you can have more.)

 

It is two specials per ten, so four for 20, and as long as one of those weapons is from the first category you can take the vox.

 

So 20-man squad could have two plasmas, single melta, single flamer and a vox. (And two medics, but they're unrelated to this mess.)

It’s 4 specials per ten.

 

it has 2 sections that quite clearly state you can take up to 2 from each section but cannot double up any single option.

Edited January 29 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[DemonGSides]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It’s 4 specials per ten.

 

it has 2 sections that quite clearly state you can take up to 2 from each section but cannot double up any single option.

Right, but the **'s at the end of each of the Special Weapon choices also restrict the TOTAL special Weapons to 4per20, and then you can take two voxes if you want to.  The *** Limits the Medpack and the Vox units to be different models.  If the **'s only apply to a single subsection of the wargear options, then they effectively become meaningless; your interpretation basically posits that there is a possible way to get 4 meltaguns in the DKoK squad, and that is emphatically not possible.

It's stupid, and a direct nerf to how many weapons they had available.

Edited January 29 by DemonGSides

[Crimson Longinus]

2 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

It’s 4 specials per ten.

 

it has 2 sections that quite clearly state you can take up to 2 from each section but cannot double up any single option.

 

Nope. The double asterisk limitation prevents that.

 

Seriously it is badly written, but it is not that incomprehensible. It is absurd that people are still confused about it, even though it has been explained several times.

[DemonGSides]

Yeah and as such I think the correct build is probably grenade launcher, plasma (to maybe trigger the Ability asap with a gets hot), Medkit and Vox per 10. Watch master is to flavor, but probably smartest to either go plasma/power sword (another gets hot) or Boltgun (Rule of Cool).

 

Disappointing. Having that extra plasma would be nice, kinda put a damper on my future DKoK plans.  Not that I am a big fan of them, guess Krieg will stay firmly in the artillery and HWS for me. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Right, but the **'s at the end of each of the Special Weapon choices also restrict the TOTAL special Weapons to 4per20, and then you can take two voxes if you want to.  The *** Limits the Medpack and the Vox units to be different models.  If the **'s only apply to a single subsection of the wargear options, then they effectively become meaningless; your interpretation basically posits that there is a possible way to get 4 meltaguns in the DKoK squad, and that is emphatically not possible.

It's stupid, and a direct nerf to how many weapons they had available.

It says no such thing.

 

2 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

Nope. The double asterisk limitation prevents that.

 

Seriously it is badly written, but it is not that incomprehensible. It is absurd that people are still confused about it, even though it has been explained several times.

It in no way says that.

 

 

all it says is that you cannot take more than 2 weapons from each section, meaning you cannot take a flamer, a grenade launcher, a long las, and a plasma gun because 3 options come from the same list.

 

or 

no 

vox, plasma, melta, GL because 3 options come from the same list.

Edited January 30 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Take this however you want, but ChatGPT reads it the same way i do.

Edit

nvm, even ChatGPT is confused and contradicting itself lol

edit #2

actually I do think ChatGPT js reading it my way, just worded poorly.

Edited January 30 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

A clarification 

[ThePenitentOne]

4 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

Right, but the **'s at the end of each of the Special Weapon choices also restrict the TOTAL special Weapons to 4per20, 

 

This interpretation is supported by the rules as written...

 

However, resolving your choices bullet by bullet is also supported, in which case, you do get four choices per 10 because ** restrictions apply one list at time.

 

Since both interpretations are supportable by the text as written, we will require clarification in an FAQ.

Edited January 30 by ThePenitentOne

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

26 minutes ago, ThePenitentOne said:

 

This interpretation is supported by the rules as written...

 

However, resolving your choices bullet by bullet is also supported, in which case, you do get four choices per 10 because ** restrictions apply one list at time.

 

Since both interpretations are supportable by the text as written, we will require clarification in an FAQ.

We most certainly will.

or a GW TO ruling at the very least.

Edited January 30 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheArtilleryman]

The more I read the datasheet, I actually think I might be wrong. I feel like the way Lensoven and I have been reading it should be the way it is, but now I’m pretty convinced it isn’t. 
 

The single asterisk means you cannot take the same option more than once per unit. So you can’t have duplicates in a squad of 10.

 

The double asterisk means you can’t take more than two of any of the options per unit. But you can take a vox as a third option. So you only have to give up a special slot if you want both a plasma and a melta.

 

The triple asterisk is just saying you can’t have vox and medipack on the same model. But you can take both without losing a special.

 

It should read:

“In a 10-man unit:

 

Up to 2 models can replace their lasgun with the following, and may not take duplicates:

 

flamer

grenade launcher

long-las

meltagun

plasma gun

 

One other model with a lasgun may take a vox-caster, provided that both a meltagun and plasma gun have not been selected.

 

One other model with a lasgun may take a medipack

 

In a 20-man unit, all the above options may be doubled, but a unit may not take more than three meltaguns or plasma guns in any combination.”
 

Games Workshop, hire me to write your rules!

[Emperor Ming]

1 hour ago, TheArtilleryman said:

The more I read the datasheet, I actually think I might be wrong. I feel like the way Lensoven and I have been reading it should be the way it is, but now I’m pretty convinced it isn’t. 

 

Games Workshop, hire me to write your rules!

 

Anyone would write better rules

 

I give up trying to read that datasheet, 4 pages and even us lot and chat gpt are not 100%....

 

I miss the old, easy to read statlines, the datasheets were supposed to be easier, but its not working out that way is it

 

and there was multiple on each page, no need for one per page

[Crimson Longinus]

8 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

all it says is that you cannot take more than 2 weapons from each section, meaning you cannot take a flamer, a grenade launcher, a long las, and a plasma gun because 3 options come from the same list.

 

No. It refers to total weapons. The lists already limit to two choices per one list, as it says so on top of each list. They would not add a note to say the same thing again.

 

And of course what ChatGTP "thinks" is meaningless. It is even more easily confused that us apes.

 

 

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

The more I read the datasheet, I actually think I might be wrong. I feel like the way Lensoven and I have been reading it should be the way it is, but now I’m pretty convinced it isn’t. 
 

The single asterisk means you cannot take the same option more than once per unit. So you can’t have duplicates in a squad of 10.

 

The double asterisk means you can’t take more than two of any of the options per unit. But you can take a vox as a third option. So you only have to give up a special slot if you want both a plasma and a melta.

 

The triple asterisk is just saying you can’t have vox and medipack on the same model. But you can take both without losing a special.

 

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

It should read:

“In a 10-man unit:

 

Up to 2 models can replace their lasgun with the following, and may not take duplicates:

 

flamer

grenade launcher

long-las

meltagun

plasma gun

 

One other model with a lasgun may take a vox-caster, provided that both a meltagun and plasma gun have not been selected.

 

One other model with a lasgun may take a medipack

 

In a 20-man unit, all the above options may be doubled, but a unit may not take more than three meltaguns or plasma guns in any combination.”
 

Games Workshop, hire me to write your rules!

 

Yeah, that's what the rules amount to, and how you wrote would be way clearer way to express it.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Crimson Longinus

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 hours ago, Crimson Longinus said:

 

No. It refers to total weapons. The lists already limit to two choices per one list, as it says so on top of each list. They would not add a note to say the same thing again.

 

And of course what ChatGTP "thinks" is meaningless. It is even more easily confused that us apes.

 

 

 

Yes.

 

 

Yeah, that's what the rules amount to, and how you wrote would be way clearer way to express it.

 

 

 

 

They wouldn’t do something redundant? Really? Just like they wouldn’t give a laspistol a 48” range right?

[Crimson Longinus]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

They wouldn’t do something redundant? Really? Just like they wouldn’t give a laspistol a 48” range right?

 

The latter is a simple typo or a copypaste error. (And I think was already fixed in a FAQ.) But it makes no sense that a rules writer would intentionally write a lengthy extra note to add to already complex entry that does nothing.

 

When you actually read the whole weapon section under the assumption that the writer was not insane, just inarticulate, and assume that everything actually has purpose, my interpretation is the logical conclusion. And I am quite confident that I am correct about this.