Trying to fit the Lion in....

[Prot]

Although this sounds a bit like a bash it's not... but I had a game with Guilliman in my UM list, and I just found him to be quite superior to the Lion.

 

I came to thinking if I want to put the Lion in a 'competitive' list, is this plausible while using the Inner Circle Detachment?

 

My only so called rules for the list would be the following:

 

- The Lion. (Obviously!)

- the ICT detachment. 

- Deathwing (preferably 2 squads.)

- Azrael.

 

Nearly everything else is in play. I have tried variants of lists and had mediocre success. Honestly the Ultramarine's Gladius with BobbyG was so much more... fluid feeling and it had a lot more bodies with a lot of ways of doing damage.

 

I would like to think I could out tank the greater damage dealers and take the end game with superior primary scoring using the Deathwing and strats that make these guys tough to crack.

 

What I'd like to include beyond the above is:

 

10 Hellblasters -or- 10 Sternguard (to go with Azrael

A Ballistus Dread (or2)

Some anti tank; either in the form of a tank(s) or even Eradicators.

5 Flamer dudes in an Impulsor (this worked so well with the UM's and I usually do have this unit in my lists, especially since the changes. but it's not mandatory).

6 Inner Circle Companions. (I just put a new squad together.) OR 6 Bladeguard

I want to put the above with the Fights First character Judiciar. 

Asmodai? Maybe he doesn't fit?

A character Pref Captain/LIbby in Termie armour for the 2 Deathwing.

 

I don't have a lot of bodies on the table, and not a lot of it shoots. I'm open to standard Intercessors with the changes.... Scouts if I have to, but honestly they don't feel so great now at 70 points a squad, but I have them.

 

Also I was using a combo of the Speeders, but they don't work so well. The Shroud would often be in the list with a few other tanks/speeders but I can't seem to find the points now since the Deathwing went up in points.

 

Anythoughts? Any thing I'm really missing here that is a good fit for the type of list I'm trying to play?

[Tacitus]

I think as long as your heart is set on the ICT Det you want to skip the Lion.  As soon as you take the Lion in a Dark Angels Det, you're pretty much giving up any chance to impact him with Strats.  I'd be tempted to go with Gladius, Librarius Conclave, 1st Company Task Force (Also won't hit Lion with strats, but all 1st company support for him is probably better than in ICT) or - and hear me out - the Vanguard Spearhead.  Think about the Lion and Kurze playing cat and mouse on the Lion's ship.  Then think about the Vanguard Spearhead.  I think it could do well as a "Dark Angels are stalking hunters" theme source.   You can have a unit of Ravenwing running around Sabotaging Sticky Objectives with a Deadly Prize,  Deathwing Knights getting Precision from Surgical Strikes,  Strike From the Shadows on Shootinators and/or Sternguard  Calculated Feint on the Infantry screening the Lion causing a failed charge, followed by a counter charge from the Lion - Guerrilla Tactics to scoop and re?-teleport some Terminators - Beyond that from the Enhancements how about some infiltrating Terminators or Infiltrating Azrael + ICC?  Maybe a couple Phobos units to take advantage of the other two - Scouting Intercessors, Infiltrating Infiltrators, Scouting Reivers, or Infiltrating Eliminators with their traditional Wombo Combo leaders.   All in all I can see a fluffy list there for the Lion.  The Infiltrating Eliminators with the shoot and scoot Enhance could be the ones Sabotaging sticky objectives as well if you don't want to take the Ravenwing.

 

Part of me wants to do a bunch of Dreads around the Lion - Lion + Techmarine (to get the Lion his Lone Operative) + a couple Redemptors (To get the Techmarine HIS Lone Operative) and -1D Duty Eternal wounds they have to bleed through, and some Brutalis to go Beatstick with the Lion as they rampage across the land... at -1 to get hit from the Vanguard Det unless you want to get close enough to get charged.

 

I do like the Judiciar, but he really needs Lieutenant style Joining - Can join Captains, Chapter Masters (and should be able to join Chaplains) - and I like Azrael with the ICC more than I like the Judiciar etc.  I like Azrael + ICC and I like Tiggy + Bladeguard.  In both cases you pretty much end up with a character in a unit that's 3+/4++ and -1 to get hit.  In this case its -2 to get hit in case they have any +1 to hits.   After I already had one of those, a Judiciar leading some BGV would be one of my "variety" units.  (I tend to have my own version of core units - units I take over and over not BATTLELINE/CORE - which makes up about half the army, the other half are variety units I swap in and out so that the whole thing isn't reptetitive. 

 

I'd try and get a Captain with SOMEHOW Advance and Charge in with the Deathwing Knights - 5" + D6" +2d6"+2 to keep up with the Lion.  Calgar giving Aggressors chasing after Guilliman is just too sweet to not try and jury-rig here. 

[Tacitus]

Gave the Vanguard thing a try - I'm ridiculously overspending on characters which I usually do on a first draft, but its interesting as a first draft:

 

Azrael

Captain in Terminator Armor (Goes with one DWK around the Lion)

Chaplain in Term - with Blade Driven Deep (Goes with other DWK to infiltrate on a key objective/chokepoint)

Judiciar for BGV

LT in Reiver Armor (joins Reiver)

Lion

Ravenwing Command Squad

 

BGV 6

DWK 5

DWK 5

ICC 6

RW Black Knights 6

Reiver 5

 

Everything is somewhat sneaky hunter/knightly for a Lion Origin theme.

only 30 some bodies is bad.  All but 5 of them having an invuln is also... interesting.  Its a starting point if you're willing to forego ICT. 

[INKS]

The Lion seems to fit in Gladius better but ok lets go.

Azrael 

The Lion

Belial 

1x Judiciar : Absolver Bolt Pistol, Executioner Relic Blade
Enhancement: The Honour Vehement (+15 pts)

 

Deathwing Knights
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Great weapon of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution

 

Deathwing Knights
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Great weapon of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution

 

Hellblaster Squad 
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
1x Plasma pistol
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Infiltrator Squad 
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Helix Gauntlet
4x Marksman bolt carbine

Ballistus Dreadnought 
• 1x Armoured feet
• 1x Ballistus lascannon
• 1x Ballistus missile launcher
• 1x Twin storm bolter

Ballistus Dreadnought 
• 1x Armoured feet
• 1x Ballistus lascannon
• 1x Ballistus missile launcher
• 1x Twin storm bolter

6x Inner Circle Companions: 6 with Calibanite Greatsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

This gives you 200 points to add in the flamer guys with transport if you want to. I've not run that group so I don't know the cost off the top of my head.

Ideally you want a jump captain and 2 jump squads.

There was a list like this run into a top 4 several months ago, but points changes and all, somethings are little more expensive, somethings a little cheaper but should still be solid.

 

 

[Tacitus]

Librarian in Terminator Armor with The Flesh is Weak

Librarian in Power Armor

Lion

Techmarine wtih Adept of the Omnissiah

Techmarine with Target Augury Web

 

Intercessors x10

 

Ballistus Dread

Ballistus Dread

Ballistus Dread

(Firstborn) Dread (TLLC + ML)

 

DWK x5

 

Redemptor Dread with Plasma and Onslaught

Redemptor Dread with Plasma and Onslaught

 

Lion runs around with Two Redemptors and one of the Techmarines (Adept of the Omnissiah to reduce one attack by not 1D but TO 0D)

Firstborn Dread hangs back with the Ballistus to give them reroll 1's while the Techmarine with Target Augury Web gives one of them lethal hits.

 

The Libby and the DWK get to run around being beefy and Sustained.

 

The Power Armor Libby gives the Intercessors a 4++ while they're running around sticky capping. 

 

Part of me wants to drop something to get something more Action Monkey'ish 

 

[Prot]

On 1/15/2025 at 10:41 PM, INKS said:

The Lion seems to fit in Gladius better but ok lets go.

Azrael 

The Lion

Belial 

1x Judiciar : Absolver Bolt Pistol, Executioner Relic Blade
Enhancement: The Honour Vehement (+15 pts)

 

Deathwing Knights
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Great weapon of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution

 

Deathwing Knights
• 1x Watcher in the Dark
• 1x Knight Master
• 1x Great weapon of the Unforgiven
• 4x Deathwing Knight
• 4x Mace of absolution

 

Hellblaster Squad 
• 1x Hellblaster Sergeant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Plasma incinerator
1x Plasma pistol
• 9x Hellblaster
• 9x Bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
9x Plasma incinerator

Infiltrator Squad 
• 1x Infiltrator Sergeant
• 1x Bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Marksman bolt carbine
• 4x Infiltrator
• 4x Bolt pistol
4x Close combat weapon
1x Helix Gauntlet
4x Marksman bolt carbine

Ballistus Dreadnought 
• 1x Armoured feet
• 1x Ballistus lascannon
• 1x Ballistus missile launcher
• 1x Twin storm bolter

Ballistus Dreadnought 
• 1x Armoured feet
• 1x Ballistus lascannon
• 1x Ballistus missile launcher
• 1x Twin storm bolter

6x Inner Circle Companions: 6 with Calibanite Greatsword, Heavy Bolt Pistol

 

This gives you 200 points to add in the flamer guys with transport if you want to. I've not run that group so I don't know the cost off the top of my head.

Ideally you want a jump captain and 2 jump squads.

There was a list like this run into a top 4 several months ago, but points changes and all, somethings are little more expensive, somethings a little cheaper but should still be solid.

 

 

 

Thanks for sticking with the theme. This is very close to what I was going to run, except I did have Intercessors and no Infiltrators....I've really liked the new rules changes to intercessors but you're probably making a better tactical choice with Infiltrators.

 

Anyway, I've decided to give this a rest. For months (on and off) I have tried slamming the Lion into my ICT lists with very little success. I play in a fairly competitive environment and it's been a grind forcing this list together. I did have successful variants, but all were without the Lion. 

 

I think partially the additional sour note for me is the two games I've played now with Guilliman/UM with the Gladius. To be honest it's not the Gladius, it's my constant comparison of the primarchs. I ALWAYS used Calgar and Aggressors in the old days, and I don't even feel the need to anymore. Dual Oath, if properly played, is just that much better than what the Lion brings. 

 

Arguably the marine datasheets are just overall 'good'.  Yes there are some stinkers, but this got me thinking of testing what I'm saying here by playing my old White Scars army. (I have one nearly fully painted). Using the Khan and just a bunch of fast 'stuff'.

 

 

[INKS]

Guilliman was soft for a while as well. I suspect as some point the Lion will get a rules glow up. He is going to need it with Fulgrim coming in and supposedly being stronger than Angron. Either way the Lion needs a little rules help.

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, Prot said:

 

Thanks for sticking with the theme. This is very close to what I was going to run, except I did have Intercessors and no Infiltrators....I've really liked the new rules changes to intercessors but you're probably making a better tactical choice with Infiltrators.

 

Anyway, I've decided to give this a rest. For months (on and off) I have tried slamming the Lion into my ICT lists with very little success.

 

 

I was pretty much expecting this - like I said the Lion is just "out of phase" with the DA specific Detachments.  Guilliman and Gladius works because Gladius isn't trying to exclude things.  I'm assuming you have both books, so I'm not suggesating some sort of rules pirating here but try going to the games-workshop site.  Search for Guilliman in one tab, and the Lion in another, then go back and forth looking at the Stratagem section (its a list of all the Strats from each Det that CAN target the unit - not necessarily that SHOULD target the unit i.e. both can be targeted by Immolation Protocols but neither have TORRENT weapons) but you can see the difference between the Gladius list, and any/all of the DA dets. 

 

With that said, I'm really liking that Vanguard Spearhead Theme to make that "Knight Of The Hunt" (I love Dad Joke Army names) list.  You're probably closer to playing that game than I am, so if you want to refine it and give it a shot, I'd be thrilled to hear a recap - or even feedback

[Azoriel]

On 1/17/2025 at 9:46 AM, Tacitus said:

With that said, I'm really liking that Vanguard Spearhead Theme to make that "Knight Of The Hunt" (I love Dad Joke Army names) list.  You're probably closer to playing that game than I am, so if you want to refine it and give it a shot, I'd be thrilled to hear a recap - or even feedback

Another way to see the Vanguard Spearhead Theme - there's a scene from the end of Angels of Darkness I often think back to:
 

Quote

 

    Boreas did not reply but stood there for a long while in contemplation. Finally, he looked back at Astelan, but said nothing. With a barely perceptible nod, he turned and walked towards the door. Swinging it open, he stopped, his head turned to one side.

    'Am I done, Grand Master?' he asked, and Astelan was confused.

    'You have done well, Brother-Chaplain,' a deep voice said from behind Astelan. 'You have earned yourself a black pearl for your rosarius. I will deal with this traitor myself.'

    Astelan looked around, but at first could see nothing. He heard the door clang shut and the cell was dark again. A movement caught his eye, and he looked more closely in that direction. From the shadows a skull emerged, and he saw that it was the mask of a man swathed in a robe of blackness. The man stepped forward into the dull light of the brazier. Astelan recognised him as the other Space Marine who had been in the chamber when he had first been brought here.

    'You have heard everything, you have been here all this time?' he gasped in disbelief. 'Who are you?'

    'I am Sapphon, Grand Master of Chaplains, the Finder of Secrets,' the man told him, his voice slow and deliberate. 'I have indeed been here all along. A simple trick, to misdirect your eyes, to focus your attention on other things and not my presence.'

 

(Emphasis mine.)  I know this bit was supposed to convey the psychological trickery of the Interrogator-Chaplains, though I feel like it also reflects the Unforgiven confounding outsiders based off of secret methodologies and extreme Opsec.  Stuff like Deathwing Terminators and Devastator Squads showing up in locations they weren't expected to be in with devastating effect would totally be in keeping with this.