Ruins in square bases

[Rogue]

I see a lot of battlefield photos with ruins standing on square or rectangular bases - often clear perspex or similar. In a lot of cases, the rectangular footprint might only have a single corner ruin on it.

 

How does that work in game? Is the whole footprint counted as a ruin? How does that work if line-of-sight doesn't cross any part of the physical ruin piece? Could I drive a vehicle over the footprint if it doesn't pass through the physical ruin?

 

And if not, what's the point of the footprint?

 

I realise this is aching obvious to lots of people, but I've never used footprints like that, and I'd really like to know what they're about.

 

Thanks in advance.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Note, in this post I refer to "actual LOS" and "game LOS" - these aren't terms in the rules, but are my shorthand to indicate what you can actually see from the models POV and what the game allows you to treat as being seen.

 

In 10th edition, the rules preserve the older concept of area terrain, though it don't refer to it as such.  For example, craters (pg 45 of the rules) give the benefit of cover to models on top of the terrain piece, regardless of whether they actually block LOS to those models.  Likewise, woods (pg 47) require a that the players agree on a defined area and within that area, LOS counts as being blocked to models even if fully visible - so, grants them the benefit of cover regardless of LOS interuption, though through different wording.  This wording difference in wording is likely because, unlike craters, they have the same effect on models behind the cover if all LOS must be drawn through the cover.

 

Ruins (pg 48) are the same as woods, except they block LOS to units behind them rather than grant the benefit of cover, and have additional rules regarding additional floors.  A further discussion on ruins and LOS are on pages 12 & 13 of the Rules Commentary.

 

So, basically, the way I understand it:

 

-   If the model is wholly in the ruin, it gets the benefit of cover, regardless of whether it is actually obscured by it.  LOS out of the cover is actual LOS.

-   If the model is only partially in the ruin, it only gets the benefit of cover is it is obscured from the shooter.  It used true LOS to see into the ruin, but has no game LOS to things on the other side of the ruin (so, where all LOS pass through the ruin) even if there is actual LOS.

-   If a model is shooting at something on the other side of the ruin, it only has game LOS if it has actual LOS that doesn't pass through the ruin.

 

Where there is potential room for controversy is where it can be argued that LOS passes "over" the ruin rather than through it (so, for example, over a jagged section of wall with higher sections on either side).  I can't see clear guidance on this in the rules - though the rules commentary pictures would seem to suggest that game LOS would be blocked in this instance, as the picture seems to show termigaunts having blocked game LOS over a low wall section of a ruin to a tank on the  other side.

 

Where there is only one representational piece of actual ruins in a corner, I would think the assumption is that that piece is the height of the ruins, and anything "over" the ruins would have to pass over the height of that piece.  Does kind of screw over models that don't make it fully into the terrain, though, as they are unlikely to have any obscurement.

 

Edited January 16 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Bouargh]

12 hours ago, Rogue said:

How does that work in game? Is the whole footprint counted as a ruin? How does that work if line-of-sight doesn't cross any part of the physical ruin piece? 

 

Yes it is: the whole footprint is consdered as a ruin, and the modelled walls are only there to emphasize part of the edges. 

 

it comes from the AREA TERRAIN key word and the associated mechanism to simplify the rules vs. the formerly used "true" line of sight. Which was funny with laser markers but impractical especially if your oponnent (or yourself) is a rule lawyer...

 

 

It also speeds up the game, especially during tournaments. You will have noted that terrain packages such as Banduas´ one include in standard such areas markers.

 

 

In terms of vehicles going into, and in general movement (flyng over for example), the physical model counts however: because its height is used to determine if you can pass or not and how you are penalized in distance...

 

The area marker is therefore only for sak of LoS determination (from and to the unit wthin or hidden by the area terrain) and Svg bonuses. But the proper model counts for movement ruels through the terrain.

 

"Simplified, but not simple"

Edited January 17 by Bouargh

[Rogue]

Thanks chaps.

 

One clarifying question. If we're playing that ruins are always LoS blocking on the ground floor (regardless of any windows or gaps on the ruin piece), does that extend to the whole ruin footprint? 

 

Or is the footprint just conferring benefit of cover if my unit can be seen across it?

 

What if there were two corner pieces on adjacent corners of the same footprint, with a gap (say 1") between them - would a model visible through that gap be visible or obscured?

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, the ruins rules seem to apply if LOS passes "through" the terrain - so if that happens, it blocks LOS to stuff behind it.  Except for stuff in the ruins (or actually obscured by the ruins), ruins never grant benefit of cover for looking through them - that's what woods do.  And yes, it extends to the whole footprint - that's why the rules state you either need a footpint on the ruins or for the players to agree to a footprint.  So in your "gap" example, that would definitely be through the terrain and there would be no game LOS.

 

The question the becomes what the difference between "through" and "over" is (incidentally "over" isn't referred to in the rules at all, so its just a presumption that ruins aren't infinitely tall and there is a point where LOS is no longer through the terrain when looking at the things above or taller than the ruins), which isn't really dealt with in the rules and which you would need to discuss with your opponent or tourney organizer/rules arbiters.

[tychobi]

Usually the entire footprint blocks los

[Bouargh]

15 hours ago, Dr_Ruminahui said:

The question the becomes what the difference between "through" and "over" is (incidentally "over" isn't referred to in the rules at all, so its just a presumption that ruins aren't infinitely tall and there is a point where LOS is no longer through the terrain when looking at the things above or taller than the ruins), which isn't really dealt with in the rules and which you would need to discuss with your opponent or tourney organizer/rules arbiters.

 

I lazily tried to find an answer to this point in the rules and rules clarifications. By lazily I mean I did not spent too much time so I might have missed it. As I did not found much, I will share what we apply as a gentleman agreement where I am sometime spending time pretending gaming. Or just lurking around other gamers.

 

If you are looked at from above, you are seen only for parts at more than 2" away of the terrain element. If you can be seen, you also see the oppostite unit. Above means in our system at least 2.5" height difference between ruin top of structure and storey level where the (ennemy) watcher is set. I think it comes from an old edition but I am not sure anymore; with age passing such things tend to be forgotten.

[Brother Nathan]

for what i think is missing is that i believe many were actually short in the required terrain amount to be viable to play games somewhat fairly, especially at tournament level/ style. the simplification is that if you use the footprints you can match the generated set ups fairly easily and avoids situations where say a a building will slightly cover less than another on the other side. wilst irritating that i can see your x though the obvious wide gap in this terrain our gaming group has found that footprints and this nearly expected coverage  has simplified and made such easier as all are using it the same. technically you can figure to game without terrain using it and i believe has been used in a few of our games using paper cut to match the required layouts in the rare occasion that terrain was forgotten. not idea but doable. done well with terrain its fairly easy  to do and has somewhat muted a few of the gunline armys in our player group that were doing way to well before it was implemented. 

[Rogue]

Thanks everyone - that's been helpful.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Moved this from Amicus to here (the Rules Forum) so it can be more easily found and better serve as a rules resource.  That said, if anyone has further thoughts to add, please do.

 

Dr. mod, Dr. R.

Edited January 22 by Dr_Ruminahui