Codex Salamanders?

[Blindhamster]

6 hours ago, TheArtilleryman said:

You know what? I always thought this guy was in Phobos armour:

 

 

But apparently not… 

He sort of is. If you look at the leg design for the actual kit, the back part of them has the Phobos style cut down design.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

2 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I don't think the chaplain has to change armor if he was with a company command, but I also don't think you send "Company Command" on a sneaky mission like phobos would want, so I'm saying it just doesn't make a lot of sense.  I don't have a page number for you, because I'm not making a proscription, just giving an opinion.  I also never said Chaplains weren't part of a company command, but I did give a situation where a Captain of a Company wore different armor than his chaplain (Space Marine 2).

You could chill a little.  It's just toys.  I just said a datasheet feels superfluous and would contribute to the oft complained about bloat of the Space Marine range.

captains, LTs, and librarians are all part of company command structure, and currently don phobos armor in either game, or books, or both.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Indy Techwisp said:

 

I assume someone's mentioned that said Phobos Captain isn't actually taking to the field at all, rather the actual on-the-ground action is lead by a Tacticus Lt. to match his Tacticus Squad?

 

Regarding a Phobos Chaplain, I don't see a reason why there wouldn't be one.
Makes about as much sense as the Phobos Libby shouting spells in Phobos or the Phobos Captain shouting orders in Phobos.
Honestly, there's a Phobos unit that really fits with a Skull Faced Transhuman Monster absolutely screaming litanies at everyone.
Reivers.

Why is everyone shouting? They have communications devices to communicate orders, and since when are librarians DBZ characters?

[Indy Techwisp]

10 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Why is everyone shouting? They have communications devices to communicate orders, and since when are librarians DBZ characters?

 

A good number of unhelmeted Marine heads are sculpted in a shouting pose, aren't they?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Anyways on the topic of characters in different armor types, honestly I hope they make armor types normal upgrades with tacticus as the standard so we dont need to have 100 HQ data sheets.

 

phobos armor gives scout and infiltrate, while gravis gives +2 T and +1 W, and -1 M.

 

[Tacitus]

36 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Anyways on the topic of characters in different armor types, honestly I hope they make armor types normal upgrades with tacticus as the standard so we dont need to have 100 HQ data sheets.

 

phobos armor gives scout and infiltrate, while gravis gives +2 T and +1 W, and -1 M.

 

That's not going to happen, they don't trust us to do the math on changing armor types, plus they want the flexibility of changing up Bespokes with different armor.  A Power Armor Libby gives 4++.  Terminators already have 4++ to Terminator Libbies give Sustained 1 etc.   The design now is new Armor, new sheet. 

[Dr. Clock]

On 1/29/2025 at 10:20 PM, HeadlessCross said:

The difference is that, with auras, commanders are actually commanding an army (albeit in a restricted aura). The whole "I don't understand you because you're in a different squad" was always bad writing. 

While technically you are commanding the army, it's perfectly reasonable to say that all the stratagems you play and indeed how you choose to  achieve overall objectives are the result of your 'in-game Warlord's' commands to their army. I would even broadly justify things like detachment rules as 'the strategic commands and inspiration of the Warlord before the battle commences'. Between the amount of imbalance risk created and the amount of additional rules that would need to be added to effect a change to an older 'Independent Character' rules midset, I think it's wise to avoid the classic 'bubble auras'.

 

Basically - a unit nearby will still 'understand' a character once their Bodyguard is gone, they just won't have the requisite coordinated training to make use of the Leader's Abilities, or to directly protect them (especially since in this circumstance the enemy will have essentially fully sighted the character to be able to call shots on them). It's more weird to me to have all characters ending up on bikes so they can bounce their bubbles around most flexibly than to just accept that there are consequences a character's Bodyguard is completely destroyed.

 

Granted - It can certainly be difficult sometimes to parse the intricate financial and IP protection and balance and fluff-based decision-making on GW's part... I think alot of the Leader units probably could have 3-5 more options to lead units with different keywords, especially when some keywords have an unnecessary gap in available character support. The most obvious solution for the discerning gamer is just to proxy your beloved conversions as the nearest peer unit eligible to join the unit you want to join them to... I use my Apothecary Biologis as a regular apothecary for instance, just as I use an old terminator conversion as Vulkan He'Stan because I prefer bespoke conversion for Epic Heros. He ends up riding with 10 Infernus marines (Firedrakes) in a Landraider, so technically there'd be room even if he took up 2 spaces ; )

 

A more complicated fix might be to allow people to pay some points to let a given Leader data-sheet join an unlisted unit as their Bodyguard. The Abilities for Terminator or Gravis or Tacticus variants all clearly have their same keyworded Bodyguard units in mind as it comes to their abilities, so applying the cost of a decent enhancement (15pts?) to 'break the mold' seems like a reasonable solution if one feels strongly about it. Probably need to say 'no Mounted Leading Infantry and vice versa' to stop people slapping bike Chaplain's devastating shooting on Hellblasters or whatever, but I can't think of any other glaring imbalance risks from letting any Infantry character lead any Infantry unit at some kind of premium.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

Edited January 31 by Dr. Clock

[HeadlessCross]

4 hours ago, Dr. Clock said:

While technically you are commanding the army, it's perfectly reasonable to say that all the stratagems you play and indeed how you choose to  achieve overall objectives are the result of your 'in-game Warlord's' commands to their army. I would even broadly justify things like detachment rules as 'the strategic commands and inspiration of the Warlord before the battle commences'. Between the amount of imbalance risk created and the amount of additional rules that would need to be added to effect a change to an older 'Independent Character' rules midset, I think it's wise to avoid the classic 'bubble auras'.

 

Basically - a unit nearby will still 'understand' a character once their Bodyguard is gone, they just won't have the requisite coordinated training to make use of the Leader's Abilities, or to directly protect them (especially since in this circumstance the enemy will have essentially fully sighted the character to be able to call shots on them). It's more weird to me to have all characters ending up on bikes so they can bounce their bubbles around most flexibly than to just accept that there are consequences a character's Bodyguard is completely destroyed.

 

Granted - It can certainly be difficult sometimes to parse the intricate financial and IP protection and balance and fluff-based decision-making on GW's part... I think alot of the Leader units probably could have 3-5 more options to lead units with different keywords, especially when some keywords have an unnecessary gap in available character support. The most obvious solution for the discerning gamer is just to proxy your beloved conversions as the nearest peer unit eligible to join the unit you want to join them to... I use my Apothecary Biologis as a regular apothecary for instance, just as I use an old terminator conversion as Vulkan He'Stan because I prefer bespoke conversion for Epic Heros. He ends up riding with 10 Infernus marines (Firedrakes) in a Landraider, so technically there'd be room even if he took up 2 spaces ; )

 

A more complicated fix might be to allow people to pay some points to let a given Leader data-sheet join an unlisted unit as their Bodyguard. The Abilities for Terminator or Gravis or Tacticus variants all clearly have their same keyworded Bodyguard units in mind as it comes to their abilities, so applying the cost of a decent enhancement (15pts?) to 'break the mold' seems like a reasonable solution if one feels strongly about it. Probably need to say 'no Mounted Leading Infantry and vice versa' to stop people slapping bike Chaplain's devastating shooting on Hellblasters or whatever, but I can't think of any other glaring imbalance risks from letting any Infantry character lead any Infantry unit at some kind of premium.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

That really doesn't make sense though. All units should theoretically be "trained" to operate under a commander. 

 

All your point about the Chaplain on the bike shows is that not everything needs different bespoke rules. If they need to, MAYBE rules that just give a unit Devastating Wounds while shooting is bad design regardless of the unit he's buffing. It isn't rocket science. 

[HeadlessCross]

20 hours ago, Medjugorje said:

I hated this change.... Characters attached to units is like 40k used to be in older editions and is how they should be... PLEASE NEVER MAKE CHARACTER MECHANIC DUMB like in 8th or 9th.... Auras are too stupid strong.... 

And older 40k was absolutely broken in many areas, including death stars starting as early as 5th. And no, auras were not "too stupid strong". 

[Dr. Clock]

6 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

All units should theoretically be "trained" to operate under a commander.

They are. Just maybe not all equally and in the same way. The 'Elite Bodyguard' is a just as important a trope in my opinion to the theme of the game as the 'Heroic Commander'. I can tell you have a different opinion, and it's too bad that it's damaging your enjoyment of the game as it is right now. I do know that feeling, and it sucks! Yet I'll continue giving credit where it's due that this hasn't become a herohammer edition, yet characters are still a vital part of most successful game plans. There are certainly winners and losers in terms of raw power, but alot of the designs are thoughtful and interesting even if they're not always so huge in their impact.

 

Going back to 'one Captain data sheet to rule them all' with total freedom to choose multiple armours, weapon loadouts, enhancements, abilities, and possibly mounts might not be rocket science, but it's definitely how we wind up with every list 'somehow' including 3 identical smash captains. While the current regime means that there are lots of (probably too many!) data sheets, there's still far less potential for unanticipated exploits to crop up because the uses of any 1 character are so much more limited by the bodyguard limitations. It means we need to take care with positioning and planning to get what we want out of the hero, not just mob up artificially around them or string units across the board in janky ways to get into an arbitrary bubble distance.

 

Even outside the Devastating Chaplain example, hopefully you can see how using 'bubble auras' and/or allowing characters to join units with very different movement, save, or other characteristics can very quickly lead to either only the fastest options being taken and/or only the tankiest ones. Do I wish my Phobos Lt could take a storm-shield and power-fist? Yes. But I also accept that he's still cool with the knives, and that his armaments are more reflective of the Phobos theme than they'd be if he just had the same meta build as a jump captain or terminator captain.

 

Anyway - we're way off topic now even though I snuck in a He'Stan reference last post, so apologies if this is taking up too much space.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

 

[Cenobite Terminator]

So when exactly are the new models supposed to come?

[Karhedron]

50 minutes ago, Cenobite Terminator said:

So when exactly are the new models supposed to come?

 

That is the big question and we do not know at the moment. The release map below shows what we know so far.

 

 

Guard are out. Eldar are coming out over February. It seems reasonable to assume Emperor's Children will be March with the other 3 Legions coming out from April - June. That leaves 4 releases which are (as far as we know):

• Grey Knights
• Imperial/Chaos Knights
• Black Templars
• Marines 2.0

We don't know what order the releases are coming in but if we assume 1 per month, that would put the new Marine stuff in the July - October window. Take with a big pinch of salt though as there are a lot of assumptions on my part.

Edited February 4 by Karhedron

[Metzombie]

2 hours ago, Karhedron said:

Guard are out. Eldar are coming out over February.

Other way around. Eldar are out this weekend and Guard a going up for preorder. So it seems likely the roadmap is in order. Also I do not think it will take 3 months for all 3 Cultlegions to release after the EC unless we get a mayor release with them.

[ZeroWolf]

There's speculation that things could go a lot faster than we think with this roadmap and that Space Wolves could cap off the summer, but we shall see what happens. All hinges on the talk if 11th edition really.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

The roadmap has 10 factions shown.

2 down.

that means they could do 1 release per month, and still have the winter available for 11th to drop.

 

but at the same time with demons going to their respective traitor marine books I could see all 4 being released at more or less the same time. Like all within 6 weeks from EC to TS

[LSM]

On 1/30/2025 at 12:01 PM, Tacitus said:

Who said they weren't special enough?  How many Salamander Only Datasheets are there?  How many Salamander only rules?  Nobody said they weren't special enough, they said they weren't fleshed out enough.  Two Special Characters, zero special units, zero special detachments, zero special rules.  The Salamander's Codex Supplement is one page long plus bonus fluff.  That's a reason to write a Black Library book not a codex supplement.

 

In 2000, Codex: Armageddon released with army lists and new units for the Armageddon Steel Legion, Ork Kult of Speed, Black Templars, and Salamanders.

 

Black Templars had some special rules, as well as new unit entries for: The Emperor's Champion, Black Templars Marshall, Black Templars Squad, Black Templars Assault Squad, Black Templars Bike Squad, and the Land Raider Crusader.

 

(Their basic squad and Bike Squad smushed together the equivalent Space Marine and Scout units into single squads, the Assault Squad could take Storm Shields and additional Power Weapons/Fists - different for the time - and the 'Crusader was introduced here but was a 0-1 choice for all other non-BT Space Marines).

 

Salamanders had some special rules, as well as new unit entries for: Salamanders Librarian, Salamanders Terminator Squad, Salamanders Tactical Squad, Salamanders Assault Squad, and Salamanders Bike Squadron. 

 

(The Librarian had a different psychic power, their Termies were cheaper but restricted to Heavy Flamers, SB+PF, or TH+SS, the Tactical Squad could take a Multi-Melta or extra Flamer - different for the time - the Assault squad could take a flamer - different for the time - and the Bike Squadron could take a cheaper Multi-Melta Attack Bike. Additionally, Salamander Chaplains could take Thunder Hammers, and Salamander Predators could take Heavy Flamer side sponsons, and all their vehicles could take Reinforced Ceremite.)

 

//

 

I suppose one could argue that Black Templars were more deserving of remaining Codex non-compliant, and it was no huge loss to "re-standardise" the Salamanders. But at the time they were both fleshed out to a reasonably equivalent level.

 

It's pretty easy to imagine a little Salamanders release with unique: Chaplain, Librarian, Terminators, Tank, Dreadnought, Upgrade Sprue.

 

(Not that I think that will happen.)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Salamanders were also -1 Initiative across the board, if memory serves.  Pretty big difference between them and every other Space Marine.  Just saying.

[LSM]

(Yeah... I wrote that for every brief unit summary, and then decided that was awfully not-brief, and figured it could be lump into "some special rules"...)

 

Point being, Black Templars had a handful of special units. Some of them became generic (~Vanguard Veterans, Land Raider Crusader) and some of them disappeared (Initiate + Neophyte Bikers), and some new things got added (Sword Brethren; Black Templar Squads didn't even have Sergeants available originally, let alone there being whole units of Sword Brethren).

 

The same didn't happen for Salamanders - they just folded completely back into Codex: Space Marines. (While losing their stable and mutation-free geneseed ;P.) But in some alternate reality the reverse could have happened, so I'd oppose the notion that it wouldn't be possible now to do a Codex: Salamanders if GW were so inclined.

 

(I do not think that they are so inclined.)

[Tacitus]

21 hours ago, LSM said:

(Yeah... I wrote that for every brief unit summary, and then decided that was awfully not-brief, and figured it could be lump into "some special rules"...)

 

Point being, Black Templars had a handful of special units. Some of them became generic (~Vanguard Veterans, Land Raider Crusader) and some of them disappeared (Initiate + Neophyte Bikers), and some new things got added (Sword Brethren; Black Templar Squads didn't even have Sergeants available originally, let alone there being whole units of Sword Brethren).

 

The same didn't happen for Salamanders - they just folded completely back into Codex: Space Marines. (While losing their stable and mutation-free geneseed ;P.) But in some alternate reality the reverse could have happened, so I'd oppose the notion that it wouldn't be possible now to do a Codex: Salamanders if GW were so inclined.

 

(I do not think that they are so inclined.)

Vanguard Vets preexisted Codex Armageddon.

And you pretty much made the point yourself, it was Codex Armageddon not Codex Black Templars or Salamanaders or Speed Freaks etc.  It was closer to Vigilus (Summer Campaign) than Codex - and it took four subfactions to make it. 

 

I also don't think any of the Also-Codex-Compliant Chapters get their Chapter Command unless they all get their Chapter Command at the same time. So unless we see a huge release of Ravenguard, Salamanders, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, etc the best you'll see is a one character trickle and that doesn't get a Codex made. 

[jaxom]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Vanguard Vets preexisted Codex Armageddon

Codex: Armageddon was released in 2000, during 3rd edition. Vanguard Veterans were released in 2008, during 5th edition.

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, jaxom said:

Codex: Armageddon was released in 2000, during 3rd edition. Vanguard Veterans were released in 2008, during 5th edition.

Vanguard Vets were available in Second Edition as "Veteran Assault Squads" in Codex Angels of Death.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

19 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

Vanguard Vets were available in Second Edition as "Veteran Assault Squads" in Codex Angels of Death.

Those are two different things…

VAS and HG were combined into the SG around the time VGV were released.

 

but most importantly VGV are vanilla vs VAS being BA exclusive 

 

other important differences, VAS could take a special ranged weapon not just special pistols and melee weapons. VAS had no access to shields, and a lot of iconic VGV loadouts weren’t even around at the time.

 

it would be like saying BGV and ICC are the same thing because both are footslogging veterans with swords.

Edited February 6 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[jaxom]

2 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Vanguard Vets were available in Second Edition as "Veteran Assault Squads" in Codex Angels of Death.

Vanguard Veterans replaced the Veteran Assault Squad, but I don't think it is accurate to say it existed previously as a Blood Angel unit. Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squads were carried foward into Codex: Blood Angels for 3rd edition and the White Dwarf 4th edition list; and for those two foundational editions didn't have access to power weapons, powerfists, or storm shields. Unlike the Black Templar Assault Squad from Codex: Armageddon which had access to all three.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, jaxom said:

Vanguard Veterans replaced the Veteran Assault Squad, but I don't think it is accurate to say it existed previously as a Blood Angel unit. Blood Angels Veteran Assault Squads were carried foward into Codex: Blood Angels for 3rd edition and the White Dwarf 4th edition list; and for those two foundational editions didn't have access to power weapons, powerfists, or storm shields. Unlike the Black Templar Assault Squad from Codex: Armageddon which had access to all three.

Why not?  Sternguard existed previously as the Veteran Tactical Squad.  They've recylced/updated a number of concepts over the years.  Doctrines started as Codex Compliant Only, then went to Divergents with Codex Compliant getting to double dip.  Formations into Detachments.  

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Those are two different things…

VAS and HG were combined into the SG around the time VGV were released.

 

but most importantly VGV are vanilla vs VAS being BA exclusive 

 

other important differences, VAS could take a special ranged weapon not just special pistols and melee weapons. VAS had no access to shields, and a lot of iconic VGV loadouts weren’t even around at the time.

 

it would be like saying BGV and ICC are the same thing because both are footslogging veterans with swords.

Nah, they're really not.  VAS and VTS were second edition versions of VanG and SternG.  This is also the time you saw Dark Angels get their Deathwing Terminators squad.  If you want the parallel to Sanguinary Guard look at Tyrannic War Veterans and Deathwing Knights.

 

Veteran Assault Squads turned into Vanguard and went Generic the same time Veteran Tacs went Sternguard and Generic.  Deathwing Terminators did not go Generic which is (sort of) why Dark Angels didn't get either of the Guards right away.  Veteran Tac/Assault Squads were First Company in Power Armor.  DA did not do that.  Until Bladeguard came out and shattered the glass ceiling.  Vanguard and Sternguard are still 1st Company veterans in Power Armor ergo the Veteran Helmet colors.