Codex Salamanders?

[LSM]

(Vanguard Veterans were just mentioned as to why Black Templar Assault Squads needn't be a unique thing for them now, similar to how Land Raider Crusaders don't need to appear in a Black Templars Supplement as they have become regular Codex: Space Marine units. It doesn't matter if Blood Angels also had a similar unit.)

 

The point was that the statement "Two Special Characters, zero special units, zero special detachments, zero special rules" hasn't always been the case.

 

At one point it was:

• Xavier, (plus Chapter Master Tu'Shan as a lore character)
• Salamanders Librarian, ~Chaplains (Thunder Hammer)
• Salamanders Terminator Squad, Salamanders Tactical Squad, Salamanders Assault Squad, Salamanders Bike Squadron
• ~Predator Destructor (Heavy Flamers)
• Special rules: Never Give Up, Self-Reliant, Sturdy, expanded cheap access to Artificer Armour, Master-Crafter Weapons, and Signums, unique wargear Salamanders Mantle, unique vehicle upgrade Reinforced Ceremite, and a bunch of 0-1 limits on their Fast Attack units.

Are the Black Templars so different? They went from:

• High Marshall Helbrecht (as a lore character)
• The Emperor's Champion, High Marshall, Marshall
• Black Templars Squad, Black Templar Assault Squad, Black Templar Bike Squadron
• Land Raider Crusader
• Special rules: Righteous Zeal, Mixed Armour, and Vows, and expanded cheap access to Purity Seals.

(4th added Sword Brethren/Terminators, introduced Grimaldus, and removed the generic High Marshall rules while adding the Castellan rank below the Marshall.)

 

Their current unique units:

• High Marshall Helbrecht, Grimaldus
• The Emperor's Champion, Marshall, Castellan
• Primaris Crusader Squad, Crusader Squad, Sword Brethren
• (Primaris tanks but with a pintle Multi-Melta option, as present in the BT Upgrade Sprue.)
• Detachment rules: Vows.

(I'd not be surprised if the non-Primaris Crusader Squad goes away in their upcoming book.)

 

There was more than enough in Codex: Armageddon to continue Black Templars as a non-Codex Compliant faction. 

 

The Salamanders are not a blank slate, it would not be difficult to make a Codex Supplement: Salamanders based on extant material.

 

(Not that I think GW will.)

 

Edited February 7 by LSM

[Tacitus]

1 hour ago, LSM said:

(Vanguard Veterans were just mentioned as to why Black Templar Assault Squads needn't be a unique thing for them now, similar to how Land Raider Crusaders don't need to appear in a Black Templars Supplement as they have become regular Codex: Space Marine units. It doesn't matter if Blood Angels also had a similar unit.)

 

The point was that the statement "Two Special Characters, zero special units, zero special detachments, zero special rules" hasn't always been the case.

 

At one point it was:

• Xavier, (plus Chapter Master Tu'Shan as a lore character)
• Salamanders Librarian, ~Chaplains (Thunder Hammer)
• Salamanders Terminator Squad, Salamanders Tactical Squad, Salamanders Assault Squad, Salamanders Bike Squadron
• ~Predator Destructor (Heavy Flamers)
• Special rules: Never Give Up, Self-Reliant, Sturdy, expanded cheap access to Artificer Armour, Master-Crafter Weapons, and Signums, unique wargear Salamanders Mantle, unique vehicle upgrade Reinforced Ceremite, and a bunch of 0-1 limits on their Fast Attack units.

 

 

And again:  What do they have now?  He'stan and?  We don't even have the bespoke Chapter Tactics, Super Doctrine, Chapter Specific Relics, Warlord Traits, and Chapter Specific Psychic powers anymore that they poofed up for the most recent supplement.   The other chapters sadly didn't have enough to justify their last Supplement round, they have far far less now. 

[jaxom]

11 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Why not?  Sternguard existed previously as the Veteran Tactical Squad.  They've recylced/updated a number of concepts over the years.

Because they’ve been consistent as a concept and unit weapon style within Codex: Space Marines since 3rd edition and Veteran Assault Squads have not.

[LSM]

6 hours ago, Tacitus said:

And again:  What do they have now?  He'stan and?  We don't even have the bespoke Chapter Tactics, Super Doctrine, Chapter Specific Relics, Warlord Traits, and Chapter Specific Psychic powers anymore that they poofed up for the most recent supplement.   The other chapters sadly didn't have enough to justify their last Supplement round, they have far far less now. 

 

Forgive me if I'm wrong on this - I was out of the hobby for a number of years (and have no first-hand knowledge of 5th to 8th).

 

But my impression was that after being fleshed out in Codex: Armageddon (2000), and receiving their own Codex (2005), the Black Templars then essentially coasted.

 

They get updated rules for Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Emperor's Champion, and Crusader Squads in Psychic Awakening (2019) , followed by a 9th edition Codex (2021).

 

//

 

The Salamanders were fleshed out in Codex: Armageddon, and then returned to the fold.

 

What do the Salamanders have right now? Nothing; not anymore. They used to, though.

 

Codex: Armageddon was enough material to create a Codex: Black Templars. If they wanted to (I don't think they do), it could easily be the foundation of a Codex: Salamanders (it won't be).

[DemonGSides]

8 hours ago, Tacitus said:

And again:  What do they have now?  He'stan and?  We don't even have the bespoke Chapter Tactics, Super Doctrine, Chapter Specific Relics, Warlord Traits, and Chapter Specific Psychic powers anymore that they poofed up for the most recent supplement.   The other chapters sadly didn't have enough to justify their last Supplement round, they have far far less now. 

 

Wait is your contention that "Currently Salamanders don't have Divergent Level support" and therefore they wouldn't get a codex?

Why can't they get Divergent Level Support as part of this next round of updates?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Ok, the arguement of ‘X chapter doesn’t currently have enough in game to justify it’s own codex’ is silly.

 

any chapter/gene line can be fleshed out at any time.

 

as has been pointed out, neither BT or sallies had much of anything before codex armeggedon, and for one reason or another BT kept getting support and sallies didnt. It easily could have gone the other way.

 

at any point the IF can be given a gravis ‘breacher’ squad with heavy bolt rifles and shields, and a ‘guardians of the gauntlet’ body guard unit.

after that, a librarian and a chaplain on top of what they already have and you have enough to justify it’s own supplement.

 

same for just about every other chapter.

 

just seems like gatekeeping for some people to continue feeling special.

my only real objection to more subfactions is GW is already terrible enough at balancing the factions and subfactions currently in the game. Any more will just exacerbate the problem.

Edited February 7 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheNicronomicon]

30 minutes ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

just seems like gatekeeping for some people to continue feeling special.

my only real objection to more subfactions is GW is already terrible enough at balancing the factions and subfactions currently in the game. Any more will just exacerbate the problem.

I'm a proponent of First Founding chapters getting "unique" units (NOT new models necessarily, more like slight buffs to existing models. For example "White Scars Outriders" and they have a special +2" to Advance or Charge rolls or something like that. Or the sergeant gives them Fall Back & Charge or something similar. Something that makes that unit a little bit better at that Chapter's specialty; nothing game-breaking. The kind of units like Thunderwolves that help push a faction to a certain detachment or playstyle. The kind of models like Hounds of Morkai, which are just Reivers with Wolf pajamas, that don't require any extra dies or molds or anything) but balance is definitely something to consider. Sticking with Scars as an example, give them an upgraded Outrider unit (maybe even forbid them from taking the base version of the unit if they're running a White Scars army) and maybe one other unit unique to them--maybe Hunter Incursors with gras-chutes for deep strike or something--and a couple unique characters. Maybe not enough to build a whole Codex around but something you could put on 3-6 pages to include in a "founding Chapters" or "Marine Expansion" codex.

[Indy Techwisp]

Calling this thread "Codex Salamanders?" was a mistake...

As it stands, none of the Base LSM Codex chapters have enough unique stuff to be split off as their own book besides Ultramarines (because it's really their codex and we're living in their walls).

It would take a lot of releases to get any of them up to full Codex status.
Since AFAIK the only actual Rumours we have for any of this is the "New Characters for LSM Codex chapters and maybe some more unit refreshes" one, I doubt such a release is coming this edition.

 

That said, on the topic of what it would take to get these chapters to "move to their own codex" status:

Imperial Fists: There's a really simply way GW could get IF out of the LSM codex and that's to merge them into Black Templars. This would have the added benefit that if GW brought back Dorn they wouldn't need a complicated rule to allow him in both an IF and BT army. Obviously this wouldn't be the best solution since IF and BT want to play very differently, but they've done 2 armies in one book before (See Orruk Warclans from AoS) so it's possible.
As for what new stuff IF would need specifically, some kind of generic IF character and an IF specific Specialist unit of some kind. IF tend to end up as the dedicated "Just shoot Bolters" chapter, so possibly a unique Squad focusing on Heavy Bolters? Probably in Gravis too, so they can be lead by one of their named characters.

 

Salamanders: Easiest canonically dead Primarch to bring back, so that's a point in favour. Prior to 10th you'd have an easy argument that a Salamanders unique unit would just be a 10 man flamer Brick, but now that's treading on covered ground. Instead, let us look towards the Salamanders detachment and see what GW thinks Salamanders want as their playstyle and apparently it's just Assault. So what about a variant on Assault Intercessors? Locked to 5-man teams, but all with Hand Flamers and Thunder Hammers. Also the usual generic Salamanders characters too.

 

Iron Hands: What these guys really want is a unique vehicle imo. Or a generic Iron Father. Either way, unless GW start making more Primaris Vehicles I don't expect Iron Hands to split off any time soon.

 

Ravenguard: These guys really need a JP Phobos unit, huh? Assuming VanVets don't evolve into one, some kind of Shooty JP Phobos would be neat for them as a unique unit. Of course they'd also need the usual Generic RG character. Also, Corvus is still canonically alive so that's a point in their favour.

 

White Scars: It's bikes. It was always going to be Bikes. A Khan on Bike would be a good Generic WS character to return and some kind of WS specific Bike Vets would be nice, but I could see GW also trying to make a WS unique Infantry unit, if only to justify Ko'sarro Khan not being on a Bike. Also Jagatai Khan being still alive in the webway means he could be brought back easily if needed.

Edited February 7 by Indy Techwisp

[jaxom]

The reason I stopped working on my project (see signature) is because these discussions come around all the time and it was depressing.

 

Could GW do all these amazing things for Marines? Yes. Will they? Emperor only knows.

[HeadlessCross]

3 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Wait is your contention that "Currently Salamanders don't have Divergent Level support" and therefore they wouldn't get a codex?

Why can't they get Divergent Level Support as part of this next round of updates?

Because it can be argued what is considered "divergent" shouldn't have that much specific support to begin with. 

[LSM]

3 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

Because it can be argued what is considered "divergent" shouldn't have that much specific support to begin with. 

 

That's a different conversation.

 

The train was: Salamanders don't have anything (datasheets, rules) and therefore aren't able to support a Codex Supplement. (Forgive me Tacitus if that reading is unfair.) It occurred to me that there was a time where Salamanders and Black Templars were equivalent, and so I didn't think that was true.

 

So less whether Salamanders should get a Codex Supplement, or if there should be more of them at all, and more challenging that they have nothing to base one on if they did.

 

//

 

(I'm also of the opinion that, well, "Vanilla is the finest of the flavours", but: that you need a baseline from which to diverge. The majority of Space Marine Chapters should look Codex Compliant, or else why bother having The Codex. The Detachments favouring certain Chapters' stereotypes is a neat way to do it, and I don't really think you need to do more than add a handful of fun characters.)

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, TheNicronomicon said:

I'm a proponent of First Founding chapters getting "unique" units (NOT new models necessarily, more like slight buffs to existing models. For example "White Scars Outriders" and they have a special +2" to Advance or Charge rolls or something like that. Or the sergeant gives them Fall Back & Charge or something similar. Something that makes that unit a little bit better at that Chapter's specialty; nothing game-breaking. The kind of units like Thunderwolves that help push a faction to a certain detachment or playstyle. The kind of models like Hounds of Morkai, which are just Reivers with Wolf pajamas, that don't require any extra dies or molds or anything) but balance is definitely something to consider. Sticking with Scars as an example, give them an upgraded Outrider unit (maybe even forbid them from taking the base version of the unit if they're running a White Scars army) and maybe one other unit unique to them--maybe Hunter Incursors with gras-chutes for deep strike or something--and a couple unique characters. Maybe not enough to build a whole Codex around but something you could put on 3-6 pages to include in a "founding Chapters" or "Marine Expansion" codex.

Nah, let them have some new unique models too.

upgrade sprues can help such units be built from the base kit, but I don’t think it’s asking too much for a 100% unique bodyguard unit for all genelines that get their own codex.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

48 minutes ago, LSM said:

 

That's a different conversation.

 

The train was: Salamanders don't have anything (datasheets, rules) and therefore aren't able to support a Codex Supplement. (Forgive me Tacitus if that reading is unfair.) It occurred to me that there was a time where Salamanders and Black Templars were equivalent, and so I didn't think that was true.

 

So less whether Salamanders should get a Codex Supplement, or if there should be more of them at all, and more challenging that they have nothing to base one on if they did.

 

//

 

(I'm also of the opinion that, well, "Vanilla is the finest of the flavours", but: that you need a baseline from which to diverge. The majority of Space Marine Chapters should look Codex Compliant, or else why bother having The Codex. The Detachments favouring certain Chapters' stereotypes is a neat way to do it, and I don't really think you need to do more than add a handful of fun characters.)

‘Why bother having the codex.’

 

well as I understand it, gman has essentially thrown the codex out the window.

even before that the codex never said unique squads, particularly unique body guard units weren’t allowed.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Wait is your contention that "Currently Salamanders don't have Divergent Level support" and therefore they wouldn't get a codex?

Why can't they get Divergent Level Support as part of this next round of updates?

Because they're not divergent.  They're Codex Compliant.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a variety junkie. I want every subfaction to have at least two viable basic builds.  I want each of hte Legion/Chapters to have a full Chapter Command, as well as two captains one idyllic, and one blacksheep.  But right now, almost everything that made a supplement happen for Imp Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars is currently out of the game.  There are no psychic powers.  There are no Relics.  There are no Chapter Tactics.  There are no Super Doctrines.  Salamanders have two nameds.  That's it.  And that's more than White Scars, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard at this point.  I don't think they can do anything for Salamanders if they're not also doing it for Raven Guard, Imp Fists, Iron Hands, etc. i.e. a return of Complaint Supplements.  But there's nothing left to build it on.  Even the Dets that sort of replaced Chapter Tactics are free-for-all generic now.  I don't think two nameds - or less - and a couple bespoke Dets that lean even harder into the "prototypical" is enough to make a supplement that wouldn't have the players howling over a money grab. 

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, DemonGSides said:

 

Wait is your contention that "Currently Salamanders don't have Divergent Level support" and therefore they wouldn't get a codex?

Why can't they get Divergent Level Support as part of this next round of updates?

My contention is that NONE of the Compliant Legion-Chapters in Codex Space Marines beyond Ultramarines have enough datasheets to support a codex supplement during an edition where everything but the nameds that drove the Complaint Supplement release have been removed from the game.

 

Go check out an 8th edition Compliant Chapter look at what they had driving or resulting from their supplement:

Chapter Specific Litanies like:  Imperial Fists: Fortress of Resolve

Chapter Specific Psychics like: Imperial Fists: Geokinesis Discipline

Chapter Tactics like Imperial Fists: Legacy of Dorn

Chapter Specific Super Doctrine bonus: Imperial Fists: Seige Masters

Chapter Specific Stratagems

Chapter Specific Relics

Chapter Specific Warlord Traits

Chapter Specific Objectives

 

None of that is still around, and most of it can't be resurrected for this edition.  There is nothing left to fill a supplement with without a massive model release, and I don't think GW has the horses to do that for everyone or the stones to stick it to everyone but one.  I was already giving the sideye to the Dark Angels supplement and they've got a Primarch, Chapter Master, three captains, a libby, and a chaplain.  Plus about 9 Bespoke unit data sheets and 3 (Original + 2 more) Dets.  The biggest selling point for that supplement was "People won't accidentally mix and match from the Dark Angels into Codex Compliant if its in a separate book" plus some bonus fluff.  In other words, I'm not sure even the Divergent Chapters have enough special stuff to warrant a supplement this go around.

[Tacitus]

7 hours ago, TheNicronomicon said:

I'm a proponent of First Founding chapters getting "unique" units (NOT new models necessarily, more like slight buffs to existing models. 

Think "Hounds of Morkai". 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

Because they're not divergent.  They're Codex Compliant.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a variety junkie. I want every subfaction to have at least two viable basic builds.  I want each of hte Legion/Chapters to have a full Chapter Command, as well as two captains one idyllic, and one blacksheep.  But right now, almost everything that made a supplement happen for Imp Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars is currently out of the game.  There are no psychic powers.  There are no Relics.  There are no Chapter Tactics.  There are no Super Doctrines.  Salamanders have two nameds.  That's it.  And that's more than White Scars, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard at this point.  I don't think they can do anything for Salamanders if they're not also doing it for Raven Guard, Imp Fists, Iron Hands, etc. i.e. a return of Complaint Supplements.  But there's nothing left to build it on.  Even the Dets that sort of replaced Chapter Tactics are free-for-all generic now.  I don't think two nameds - or less - and a couple bespoke Dets that lean even harder into the "prototypical" is enough to make a supplement that wouldn't have the players howling over a money grab. 

Codex compliant doesn’t mean identical though…they may not be divergent but neither are the BA.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, Tacitus said:

My contention is that NONE of the Compliant Legion-Chapters in Codex Space Marines beyond Ultramarines have enough datasheets to support a codex supplement during an edition where everything but the nameds that drove the Complaint Supplement release have been removed from the game.

 

Go check out an 8th edition Compliant Chapter look at what they had driving or resulting from their supplement:

Chapter Specific Litanies like:  Imperial Fists: Fortress of Resolve

Chapter Specific Psychics like: Imperial Fists: Geokinesis Discipline

Chapter Tactics like Imperial Fists: Legacy of Dorn

Chapter Specific Super Doctrine bonus: Imperial Fists: Seige Masters

Chapter Specific Stratagems

Chapter Specific Relics

Chapter Specific Warlord Traits

Chapter Specific Objectives

 

None of that is still around, and most of it can't be resurrected for this edition.  There is nothing left to fill a supplement with without a massive model release, and I don't think GW has the horses to do that for everyone or the stones to stick it to everyone but one.  I was already giving the sideye to the Dark Angels supplement and they've got a Primarch, Chapter Master, three captains, a libby, and a chaplain.  Plus about 9 Bespoke unit data sheets and 3 (Original + 2 more) Dets.  The biggest selling point for that supplement was "People won't accidentally mix and match from the Dark Angels into Codex Compliant if its in a separate book" plus some bonus fluff.  In other words, I'm not sure even the Divergent Chapters have enough special stuff to warrant a supplement this go around.

Sure all of those things are gone, but now guess what, now we have detachments, stratagems and enhancements. Detachments are just new kinds of doctrines, and enhancements are just relics renamed.

 

a chaplain, and 1(ideally 2) unique units. Could fill out an IF supplement, and wouldn’t require a massive release (at least not in my opinion.) and include Pedro cantor as well.

 

sallies have 2 characters as well, a new techmarine, and a “drake’s guard” unit like BGV with handflamers and inferno pistols. Could literally be done with an unpgrade sprue.

 

again adding in 2 detachments, and 4-6 enhancements, and 6-8 strats seems fine for a supplement.

 

in 3rd BA had only 10 data sheets with unique kits, nearly half of those being epic heroes, and was only about 2 dozen pages including lore, and color hobby section.

Edited February 8 by Inquisitor_Lensoven

[TheNicronomicon]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Think "Hounds of Morkai". 

Exactly! It solves so many problems--those units can be in the SM codex or they could publish a separate "first founding chapters" codex mid-edition. I would imagine removing more legacy data sheets could free up enough space for it. Hounds have a unique paint job and some wolfy bits, that's it. You could easily do the same for a "flavor" unit or two from the compliant chapters without eating up production capacity or SKU space, and without adding more factions or detachments, since they're all still Space Marines. We're looking at 5 chapters, really. 10 data sheets if each chapter got two special units, plus maybe another 10 if they got more unique characters. (Give Scars a pair of bike guys, Iron Hands a dream and a techmarine, Sallies an apothecary and somebody to lead flame aggressors or a pyreblaster LT to go with the infernos squads. Raven Guard get a lone o[ and some kind of heavy hitter, Fists get a bladeguard or sternguard-style character and a gravis LT, or maybe an Inceptor character. Ultras already have a bunch of characters, so they're good lol)

[DemonGSides]

3 hours ago, Tacitus said:

My contention is that NONE of the Compliant Legion-Chapters in Codex Space Marines beyond Ultramarines have enough datasheets to support a codex supplement during an edition where everything but the nameds that drove the Complaint Supplement release have been removed from the game.

 

Go check out an 8th edition Compliant Chapter look at what they had driving or resulting from their supplement:

Chapter Specific Litanies like:  Imperial Fists: Fortress of Resolve

Chapter Specific Psychics like: Imperial Fists: Geokinesis Discipline

Chapter Tactics like Imperial Fists: Legacy of Dorn

Chapter Specific Super Doctrine bonus: Imperial Fists: Seige Masters

Chapter Specific Stratagems

Chapter Specific Relics

Chapter Specific Warlord Traits

Chapter Specific Objectives

 

None of that is still around, and most of it can't be resurrected for this edition.  There is nothing left to fill a supplement with without a massive model release, and I don't think GW has the horses to do that for everyone or the stones to stick it to everyone but one.  I was already giving the sideye to the Dark Angels supplement and they've got a Primarch, Chapter Master, three captains, a libby, and a chaplain.  Plus about 9 Bespoke unit data sheets and 3 (Original + 2 more) Dets.  The biggest selling point for that supplement was "People won't accidentally mix and match from the Dark Angels into Codex Compliant if its in a separate book" plus some bonus fluff.  In other words, I'm not sure even the Divergent Chapters have enough special stuff to warrant a supplement this go around.

 

I think you're mixing too much lore into what is a rules discussion.

 

I don't think most of the "divergent" chapters are all that divergent, and in most cases (BA, DA) are actually mostly codex compliant. It's just easier to call the big special space marine divergent.

 

 

I think it's silly to think Salamanders couldn't be given three specific kits to become same level of divergent as any of the others. They may have less options but it doesn't seem all that far-fetched.  Like a Death company style special unit that's just fancy internus Marines, one new kit, an alternate for putting heavy flamers on random vehicles like BT does, and two character level units and that's a full model release as far as GW is concerned.

Edited February 8 by DemonGSides

[TheNicronomicon]

5 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Nah, let them have some new unique models too.

upgrade sprues can help such units be built from the base kit, but I don’t think it’s asking too much for a 100% unique bodyguard unit for all genelines that get their own codex.

I'm not opposed to new models or more codexes, but i've been assuming that GW doesn't want to devote more production capacity to Marines, or add new factions to the game, which is why I would propose re-skinned existing units that work better with the Detachment based on that chapter's doctrines. Bikes should just work better when Scars use them, for example, so build an Outrider data sheet that synergies with the Scars detachment and you're done. You can even tie the lack of a special model to the chapter being code compliant--they're better on bikes because that just White Scars doing White Scars things. And since they're just data sheets, you can replace the units they're retiring with these guys without requiring a bunch of new codexes.

[Tacitus]

24 minutes ago, DemonGSides said:

 

I think you're mixing too much lore into what is a rules discussion.

 

I don't think most of the "divergent" chapters are all that divergent, and in most cases (BA, DA) are actually mostly codex compliant. It's just easier to call the big special space marine divergent.

 

 

I think it's silly to think Salamanders couldn't be given three specific kits to become same level of divergent as any of the others. They may have less options but it doesn't seem all that far-fetched.  Like a Death company style special unit that's just fancy internus Marines, one new kit, an alternate for putting heavy flamers on random vehicles like BT does, and two character level units and that's a full model release as far as GW is concerned.

None of what I mentioned was game lore, it was entirely rules. That was what they did the last time they made a Supplement for the Codex Compliant chapters (Which is referring to all the other Main Codex Chapters - generally the ones who had their own Codex (BA, DA, SW, BT) are "divergent" while the ones that share the codex with UM are "compliant". 

 

The 8th Ed supplements for non-UM "Compliant" chapters were already thin, and they had roughly 12 or so pages of rules between the Litany, Psychic Discipline, Relics, Almost Relic Wargear, Doctrines, and so on and so on.  And that was thin.  Adding three kits + 3 Datasheets to any of the "compliant" chapters still leaves them with about a third of the datasheets you'd see from DA/BA/SW etc.   To make them fleshed out enough you're looking at Chapter Master, Chief Librarian, Master of Sanctity, and probably one more captain/other special named plus your three+ units  at least 7 Blisters/kits and matching datasheets.  Which - again - means you're looking at closer to 40 Blister/kits and datasheets so that all five'ish "Compliant" chapters get the same support.  Again I'm all for it, but there's no chance they roll out 20-30 Blisters plus another 15ish kits in the SM range.  They want to lower shelf space costs not explode them.

[Tacitus]

45 minutes ago, TheNicronomicon said:

Exactly! It solves so many problems--those units can be in the SM codex or they could publish a separate "first founding chapters" codex mid-edition. I would imagine removing more legacy data sheets could free up enough space for it. Hounds have a unique paint job and some wolfy bits, that's it. You could easily do the same for a "flavor" unit or two from the compliant chapters without eating up production capacity or SKU space, and without adding more factions or detachments, since they're all still Space Marines. We're looking at 5 chapters, really. 10 data sheets if each chapter got two special units, plus maybe another 10 if they got more unique characters. (Give Scars a pair of bike guys, Iron Hands a dream and a techmarine, Sallies an apothecary and somebody to lead flame aggressors or a pyreblaster LT to go with the infernos squads. Raven Guard get a lone o[ and some kind of heavy hitter, Fists get a bladeguard or sternguard-style character and a gravis LT, or maybe an Inceptor character. Ultras already have a bunch of characters, so they're good lol)

I've suggested a variation on that a few times, and I'm just waiting/praying for GW to make that the design idea of the future.  Base Kit + Option/Upgrade kit = new unit.  I was mostly thinking of a way for GW to make all the Armor/Character variants for theme armies possible without blowing up the blister row - but yeah it would be child's play to apply it to some iconic chapter units. 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Seems appropriate 

 

 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

16 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

None of what I mentioned was game lore, it was entirely rules. That was what they did the last time they made a Supplement for the Codex Compliant chapters (Which is referring to all the other Main Codex Chapters - generally the ones who had their own Codex (BA, DA, SW, BT) are "divergent" while the ones that share the codex with UM are "compliant". 

 

The 8th Ed supplements for non-UM "Compliant" chapters were already thin, and they had roughly 12 or so pages of rules between the Litany, Psychic Discipline, Relics, Almost Relic Wargear, Doctrines, and so on and so on.  And that was thin.  Adding three kits + 3 Datasheets to any of the "compliant" chapters still leaves them with about a third of the datasheets you'd see from DA/BA/SW etc.   To make them fleshed out enough you're looking at Chapter Master, Chief Librarian, Master of Sanctity, and probably one more captain/other special named plus your three+ units  at least 7 Blisters/kits and matching datasheets.  Which - again - means you're looking at closer to 40 Blister/kits and datasheets so that all five'ish "Compliant" chapters get the same support.  Again I'm all for it, but there's no chance they roll out 20-30 Blisters plus another 15ish kits in the SM range.  They want to lower shelf space costs not explode them.

Speaking only for BA here, but…

 

BA didn’t start out with this many unique units. I’m not sure how many we had in AoD, I can check in the morning, but as I posted earlier in 3rd we had about 10 that had kits.

and in 4th or 5th we got even more.

 

retired HG for SG

got Libby dreads.

got DC dreads.

got sanguinor 

got astorath

lost Tycho, but gained generic captain that more or less replaces him.

 

did I forget anything?