Codex Salamanders?

[jaxom]

5 hours ago, Tacitus said:

Because they're not divergent.  They're Codex Compliant.  Don't get me wrong, I'm a variety junkie. I want every subfaction to have at least two viable basic builds.  I want each of hte Legion/Chapters to have a full Chapter Command, as well as two captains one idyllic, and one blacksheep.  But right now, almost everything that made a supplement happen for Imp Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Iron Hands, and White Scars is currently out of the game.  There are no psychic powers.  There are no Relics.  There are no Chapter Tactics.  There are no Super Doctrines.  Salamanders have two nameds.  That's it.  And that's more than White Scars, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard at this point.  I don't think they can do anything for Salamanders if they're not also doing it for Raven Guard, Imp Fists, Iron Hands, etc. i.e. a return of Complaint Supplements.  But there's nothing left to build it on.  Even the Dets that sort of replaced Chapter Tactics are free-for-all generic now.  I don't think two nameds - or less - and a couple bespoke Dets that lean even harder into the "prototypical" is enough to make a supplement that wouldn't have the players howling over a money grab. 

 

One generic character, one named character, one new unit, and three detachments for 3 of the 6, and I have Salamanders at most of that (never finished the last two detachments) on my PC. I could/would do more if I thought it was worth the time.

 

I think Blood Angels have 5 named characters, 1 generic character, 3 infantry units (1 unique kit, 2 based on upgrade sprue), 1 vehicle (based on paint job), and 3 detachments. That's not hard to do. Though I may be missing the point? 

[TheArtilleryman]

4 hours ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

Seems appropriate 

 

 

OMG the Iron Hands 

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

7 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

One generic character, one named character, one new unit, and three detachments for 3 of the 6, and I have Salamanders at most of that (never finished the last two detachments) on my PC. I could/would do more if I thought it was worth the time.

 

I think Blood Angels have 5 named characters, 1 generic character, 3 infantry units (1 unique kit, 2 based on upgrade sprue), 1 vehicle (based on paint job), and 3 detachments. That's not hard to do. Though I may be missing the point? 

I think you’re talking about the DC dread as the vehicle painted different but we still have the Baal predator.

though I bet that goes away in 11th for a gladiator with a vehicle upgrade sprue.

[Blindhamster]

12 hours ago, jaxom said:

 

One generic character, one named character, one new unit, and three detachments for 3 of the 6, and I have Salamanders at most of that (never finished the last two detachments) on my PC. I could/would do more if I thought it was worth the time.

 

I think Blood Angels have 5 named characters, 1 generic character, 3 infantry units (1 unique kit, 2 based on upgrade sprue), 1 vehicle (based on paint job), and 3 detachments. That's not hard to do. Though I may be missing the point? 

 

dante (model)

mephiston (model)

sanguinor (model)

astorath (model)

lemartes (model)

blood angels captain (model)

death company captain (paint job)

dealth company captain with jump pack (paint job)

sanguinary priest (model)

 

sanguinary guard (model)

death company (upgrade sprue)

death company with jump packs (upgrade sprue)

death company with bolt rifles (upgrade sprue)

 

death company dread (paint job)

baal predator (model)

 

(we also lost a number of things this time around)

 

And I'd bet in 11th we lose the baal predator if other predators go but regain corbulo or something like that. Actual models we have 8.. plus an upgrade sprue. I'd love to see them do something cool with salamanders, my best friend plays them.

[HeadlessCross]

18 hours ago, Tacitus said:

My contention is that NONE of the Compliant Legion-Chapters in Codex Space Marines beyond Ultramarines have enough datasheets to support a codex supplement during an edition where everything but the nameds that drove the Complaint Supplement release have been removed from the game.

 

Go check out an 8th edition Compliant Chapter look at what they had driving or resulting from their supplement:

Chapter Specific Litanies like:  Imperial Fists: Fortress of Resolve

Chapter Specific Psychics like: Imperial Fists: Geokinesis Discipline

Chapter Tactics like Imperial Fists: Legacy of Dorn

Chapter Specific Super Doctrine bonus: Imperial Fists: Seige Masters

Chapter Specific Stratagems

Chapter Specific Relics

Chapter Specific Warlord Traits

Chapter Specific Objectives

 

None of that is still around, and most of it can't be resurrected for this edition.  There is nothing left to fill a supplement with without a massive model release, and I don't think GW has the horses to do that for everyone or the stones to stick it to everyone but one.  I was already giving the sideye to the Dark Angels supplement and they've got a Primarch, Chapter Master, three captains, a libby, and a chaplain.  Plus about 9 Bespoke unit data sheets and 3 (Original + 2 more) Dets.  The biggest selling point for that supplement was "People won't accidentally mix and match from the Dark Angels into Codex Compliant if its in a separate book" plus some bonus fluff.  In other words, I'm not sure even the Divergent Chapters have enough special stuff to warrant a supplement this go around.

This is why GW should've just done Marines the way they did AM. Everything jn one book, and if you don't want to take something just don't. No reason Ultramarine and Dark Angel Successors shouldn't have a Jump Honour Guard like Sanguinary Guard if they want. 

42 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

 

dante (model)

mephiston (model)

sanguinor (model)

astorath (model)

lemartes (model)

blood angels captain (model)

death company captain (paint job)

dealth company captain with jump pack (paint job)

sanguinary priest (model)

 

sanguinary guard (model)

death company (upgrade sprue)

death company with jump packs (upgrade sprue)

death company with bolt rifles (upgrade sprue)

 

death company dread (paint job)

baal predator (model)

 

(we also lost a number of things this time around)

 

And I'd bet in 11th we lose the baal predator if other predators go but regain corbulo or something like that. Actual models we have 8.. plus an upgrade sprue. I'd love to see them do something cool with salamanders, my best friend plays them.

We're really not going to pretend that the Baal Predator and two different foot Death Company are different unit entries, are we?

[Blindhamster]

55 minutes ago, HeadlessCross said:

We're really not going to pretend that the Baal Predator and two different foot Death Company are different unit entries, are we?

The baal predator has been a different thing since 2nd edition. So yeah.

The Death company on foot thing, they're as much two different units as intercessors and assault intercessors on foot are.

[Tacitus]

2 hours ago, Blindhamster said:

 

 

And I'd bet in 11th we lose the baal predator if other predators go but regain corbulo or something like that. Actual models we have 8.. plus an upgrade sprue. I'd love to see them do something cool with salamanders, my best friend plays them.

My bet is you get a Baal Gladiator when you lose the Baal Predator.

[Tacitus]

32 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

The baal predator has been a different thing since 2nd edition. So yeah.

The Death company on foot thing, they're as much two different units as intercessors and assault intercessors on foot are.

Death Company on Foot have two ancestry reasons:  You could have made old school Death Company on foot because you could opt out of the Jump Pack cost.  Then they killed off the Assault Squads but didn't replace them wiht JPAI for a while so you got Intercessor Death Company on foot.

Quote

 

death company dread (paint job)

I think its paint job, plus some optional? bits from the BA Upgrade Sprue.  I mean technically almost everything cosmetic is optional but realistically all the DC Dreads I see based on the Brutalis has some BA/DC bits on it for cosmetics/identity/differentiation as well.

[Blindhamster]

37 minutes ago, Tacitus said:

My bet is you get a Baal Gladiator when you lose the Baal Predator.

Probably tbh. Or it’ll just die as the onslaught one is “close enough” the lucifer engines are a thing of the past for rhinos afterall 

[Tacitus]

21 minutes ago, Blindhamster said:

Probably tbh. Or it’ll just die as the onslaught one is “close enough” the lucifer engines are a thing of the past for rhinos afterall 

The Onslaught is close to one turret, but it skips the Flamer turret,  My guess is you get about 6 bits: 4ish to make the flamestorm cannon top, and two heavy flamer gun barrel bits for the side sponsons where other Gladiators have Tempest Bolters or Multi Meltas etc. 

[Karhedron]

The Gladiator has all the weapons on a single sprue so it would probably not be too hard to produce a replacement sprue with the Baal weapons on and a few BA decorated bits.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

4 hours ago, HeadlessCross said:

This is why GW should've just done Marines the way they did AM. Everything jn one book, and if you don't want to take something just don't. No reason Ultramarine and Dark Angel Successors shouldn't have a Jump Honour Guard like Sanguinary Guard if they want. 

We're really not going to pretend that the Baal Predator and two different foot Death Company are different unit entries, are we?

Here’s the thing…you can do that since there’s no rules locking paint scheme and rules together 

[Indy Techwisp]

Why is it that every single Space Marine thread is either "Primaris Sucks bring back Firstborn" or "Codex Chapters suck Nerf Divergents"?
And why is it that this thread has managed to hit both?

 

Anyway, is there any new Rumours from Valrak regarding the actual reason this thread exists?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

3 minutes ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Why is it that every single Space Marine thread is either "Primaris Sucks bring back Firstborn" or "Codex Chapters suck Nerf Divergents"?
And why is it that this thread has managed to hit both?

 

Anyway, is there any new Rumours from Valrak regarding the actual reason this thread exists?

There are rumors from valrak, that we will be getting a bunch of new character models for vanilla marines, but this thread exists because of the GW roadmap, not valrak.

[Indy Techwisp]

1 minute ago, Inquisitor_Lensoven said:

There are rumors from valrak, that we will be getting a bunch of new character models for vanilla marines, but this thread exists because of the GW roadmap, not valrak.

 

I mean to be honest this thread just looks like a massive rant back and forth arguing the toss about why Marine Faction X is  and Marine Faction Y needs to be the main thing GW focus on.
If there actually was a topic, we lost it 13 pages ago.

[Tacitus]

5 hours ago, Karhedron said:

The Gladiator has all the weapons on a single sprue so it would probably not be too hard to produce a replacement sprue with the Baal weapons on and a few BA decorated bits.

Add-in Sprue.  They don't need to redesign the wheel - just add the two sponson faceplates, and the Super Flamer Turret tubes so drop in a roughly independent character sized sprue with the three gun bits in their subassemblies. 

[Tacitus]

3 hours ago, Indy Techwisp said:

Why is it that every single Space Marine thread is either "Primaris Sucks bring back Firstborn" or "Codex Chapters suck Nerf Divergents"?
And why is it that this thread has managed to hit both?

 

Anyway, is there any new Rumours from Valrak regarding the actual reason this thread exists?

That's not what I see?  I mean there's always someone who has that as their Stump Speech, but I think you may have just glanced over the posts and seen some keywords that made you think this was wide spread?  For the most part the discussion I've been invovled in has been about how many rules pages - including datasheets - are needed to justify a supplement expense and can/would/should GW do that for one of the five "compliant" chapters and not do it for the four others.

[ThaneOfTas]

On 2/9/2025 at 4:29 AM, Blindhamster said:

death company (upgrade sprue)

death company with jump packs (upgrade sprue)

death company with bolt rifles (upgrade sprue)

Death Company only count as an upgrade sprue because of the evicerator, so the Bolt Rifle ones are definitely only a paint job.

[Blindhamster]

24 minutes ago, ThaneOfTas said:

Death Company only count as an upgrade sprue because of the evicerator, so the Bolt Rifle ones are definitely only a paint job.

they can still take the evicerator

[ThaneOfTas]

1 hour ago, Blindhamster said:

they can still take the evicerator

Wait really?

 

*checks* 

 

Huh. Well my objection is withdrawn in that case.

[Orange Knight]

On 2/7/2025 at 11:15 PM, Tacitus said:

Because they're not divergent.  They're Codex Compliant.

 

I feel the need to adress this statement.

 

As an example, strictly speaking in the lore, the Blood Angels and Dark Angels are fully codex compliant.

 

There is no reason why a chapter should be limited in having some unique wargear variations that lets them perform a task in the way that suits them most.

 

Again, to use the Blood Angels as an example - Their Sanguinary Guard are utlimately Honor Guard with jump packs. We all know that the Codex Astartes does not prohibit Veteran Marines from using a Jump Pack.

The Blood Angels do have the Black Company - but this is one of those "secrets everyone knows" as they technically exist outside of their regular chapter structure. It's the shame of the chapter and again, in the lore, they don't actually appear that often and outsiders don't know of them. I'm happy to see them included as units on the tabletop of course.

The Dark Angels on the other hand are totally compliant in their organisation. All of their unique units fit neatly into the codex, they just have access to some more esoteric wargear which is perfectly in keeping with the lore. The Dark Angel companions are just a varition of th Bladeguard Veteran. The Deathwing Terminators are just a variation of Assault Terminators, etc etc.

 

Returning to the idea of codex chapters having exclusive units.

 

Are the Salamanders not master craftsmen? Is it not feasable that these masters of fire and ash could produce a more powerful Incinerator variant in their Chapter World's forges? And could they not produce a more powerful Thunderhammer?

If the Salamanders had access to a veteran unit armed with improved hand flamers and Thunderhammers, I would not bat an eye lid. It's perfectly thematic, and perfectly codex compliant.

 

The same can be applied to all of the chapters. The proper way of doing it would be for these units to replace the closest analogue in the codex, but GW doesn't think ahead far enough to do this properly. 

 

The only chapters that aren't codex compliant would be the Black Templars and the Space Wolves. But again, how to really show this on the tabletop when armies are limited in points? Unique unit variations are not what define a chapter's complianace. 

In the lore, it is accepted that certain forgeworlds and planets are able to produce unique wargear and machines that they outfit to local forces. We even see this with unique weapons and options for the Imperial Guard. Are the Death Korps of Krieg not compliant with the Tactica Imperialis? Of course they are.

 

To end - it is folly to claim that "the codex compliant" chapters can't have unique units. If you actually dive in to the lore it's clear that titles like "divergent" are used incorrectly. Just because something is common place does not make it correct. I could go on and say how a lot of people's understanding of the lore in general is shaped by popular memes and statements that are perpetuated on social media but are often times wrong.

 

Edited February 13 by Orange Knight

[Tacitus]

12 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The only chapters that aren't codex compliant would be the Black Templars and the Space Wolves.

 

Well there are more than those two- The Blood Ravens having a Chief Librarian and Chapter Master from the same person maybe? - and the Dark Angels are not Compliant, because of the Ravenwing.

 

Quote

The same can be applied to all of the chapters. The proper way of doing it would be for these units to replace the closest analogue in the codex, but GW doesn't think ahead far enough to do this properly. 

GW is thinking ahead.  They don't remove the regular Terminator Squad or the Outrider Squad because they figured DA players may want more than the Rule of Three Allows for Termies or Bikes.  The Blood Angels may want more than 3 Veteran Jump Packers, and wouldn't want to give up JPAI to get Death Company too.   The point of the bespoke units isn't necessarily to give the chapter "better" so much as "more". 

Edited February 13 by Tacitus

[DemonGSides]

12 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

To end - it is folly to claim that "the codex compliant" chapters can't have unique units. If you actually dive in to the lore it's clear that titles like "divergent" are used incorrectly. Just because something is common place does not make it correct. I could go on and say how a lot of people's understanding of the lore in general is shaped by popular memes and statements that are perpetuated on social media but are often times wrong.

 

I think you're just taking what people are discussing as "divergent" in the models and rules we have as people calling them non compliant in the lore and I don't think anyone is doing that, really.

[Tacitus]

13 hours ago, Orange Knight said:

 

The Blood Angels do have the Black Company - but this is one of those "secrets everyone knows"

 

First, I question if this is one of those secrets everyone knows.

 

Second, can you explain why if everyone knows you're divergent, you're no longer divergent?  (Though I'm not sure I'd say BA are Divergent - but that's the rationale you're arguing)

Edited February 14 by Tacitus

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

1 hour ago, Tacitus said:

First, I question if this is one of those secrets everyone knows.

 

Second, can you explain why if everyone knows you're divergent, you're no longer divergent?  (Though I'm not sure I'd say BA are Divergent - but that's the rationale you're arguing)

The codex literally says they’re almost 100% codex astartes compliant.

the biggest divergence is the reclusiam and apothecarion being on the same level.